Vermont Castings insane price increases

[tradergordo]

Would it be possible to rebuild the refractory chamber on a dutchwest 2479 with any of the materials in the second link? If so how would you know what to use. I plan on taking the back apart this summuer to fix an issue with the soft refrac package and if I could do it without giving anymore money to VC CFM that would be outstanding. Not sure what the parts cost from them but it is probably expensive.
Don't want to hijack thread this just really caught my attention when I read thru it. Thanks Chris

First - the soft (ceramic filament) portion of the refractory IS COVERED by warranty and should be replaced free of charge. There are no doubts about that since its not exposed and therefore you can't ram a log against it, its covered.

That said, you should be able to repair/replace any refractory piece, although some will be harder than others. I too need the refractory piece for my load door. I know its not covered by warranty, because my wife repeatedly slammed the door against a log until the refractory cracked in half (rolling eyes). Anyway, I wanted to order a replacement, and balked at the ridiculous price. VC is shooting themselves in the foot if you ask me. I'm going to start a new thread with detailed instructions and pictures for how to make your own replacement refractory parts. But since I haven't done it yet, I'll just give you my notes thus far.

First of all, much damage can simply be repaired, you don't always have to build a whole new part. Rutland sells some good products for this, in fact you can probably find their refractory repair product (in a tube, works with caulk gun) on clearance right now. I picked up two tubes from Home Depot for 50 cents. Follow the instructions, you need to wet the existing refractory before applying, you can stick both halves of a broken piece of refractory back together again with this stuff and it will hold pretty well.

OK - what if you want to make your own replacement part? You need castable refractory with insulating properties. Don't use concrete - it can explode when heated. You can use another Rutland product, they sell their own castable:
http://www.hartshearth.com/productcart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=6278
this can be found at many retailers that sell Rutland products.

But its more cost effective to buy a bag of castable refractory direct from a manufacturer. There are several manufacturers, and I think every state has at least one distributor. AP Green/North American Refractories/Harbison walker, has an online location search at:
http://www.hwr.com/
(click locations, distribution centers at the top)

You can also just use superpages.com and search on "refractory", to find local suppliers.

There are many mixes that should work, but based on my research here's a partial list of products that should be fine:
KAST-O-LITE 22 Plus
KAST-O-LITE 23 LI Plus
KAST-O-LITE 26 LI Plus
KAST-O-LITE 30 LI Plus
KAST-O-LITE 97-L Plus
GREENLITE 23 LI Plus DS
GREENLITE-45-L Plus
GREENLITE 75-28 Plus
GREENLITE-45-L AL Plus
GREENLITE CASTABLE 22 Plus
Sparcast LC32-AL


With Kast-O-Lite, the number in the name represents the temperature its rated to go up to, so 26 is good for 2600 degrees F (which is way more than you'll need). 30 goes to 3000 degrees, but does not insulate as well as 26 so there is no reason to pay extra for it.

I just picked up a 55 lb. bag of kast-o-lite 26 today, it was about $35 and is enough to make many custom pieces. It also came with a separate printed set of mixing and using instructions. I'll make a simple form, create the replacement refractory piece, and cure it according to directions and let you all know how it works out, but really I don't think its such a big deal... Note that VC adds metal strands to their refractory to give it extra strength and prevent it from falling apart if it cracks, you can do this too, probably using any wire material you have.

With VCs prices, perhaps I should start selling custom refractory replacements!

 

[slindo]

Apologies for reviving an old thread. I'm trying to decide whether to rebuild or replace an early Encore. Basically, I need a cat, heat exchanger, and maybe a refractory box. I just priced the parts, and found that under the new crazy pricing the so-called "heat exchanger", a 12" x 24" or so piece of SS sheet with 4 bends in it, is now $150, and the refractory box $365!

Oddly enough, the full fireback kit, which contains these parts, plus the cast iron fireback and completely updraft door assembly, and a lot of small parts, is still "only" $450 - up since the last one I bought, but less than the price of just the two parts I need! So one has to wonder whether VC for some reason is trying to encourage people to buy the full kit, or just forgot to insanely raise the price along with the others (which, if truely the case, means anyone who may need to rebuild one of these stoves soon might want to grab a kit before VC notices)! The irony here is that you rarely need the cast iron parts in the kit unless the stove has been severely and repeatedly overfired, where the exchanger and refractory box seem to need replacement anytime the thing is apart.

The refractory boxes in these are not cast, BTW. They are made of a very light and mushy board simply cut to size and cemented together with refractory cement. Looks like if I could find the right board, I could make one about an hour. So maybe someome will eventually start making them at a reasonable price.

The other irony is that while I can probably save my old box, my "heat exchanger" is totally gone, but I'm pretty sure I have the old one from the last rebuilt, that would probably be reuseable. Only thing is, if I have it, its in my scrap depot in the woods where I leave possibly useful bits of metal - which is currently under about 4 feet of snow!

With VCs prices, perhaps I should start selling custom refractory replacements!

 

[swestall]

Get a new stove from a different manufacturer. One that doesn't use this kind of material and who is likely to be in business in the future.

 

[begreen]

slindo, how frequently are you having to do these rebuilds? Seems very pricey. There are stoves that you wouldn't spend this much on for maintenance over 15-20 years.

 

[slindo]

I quite agree, it has demanded, in the last few years especially, an unreasonable amount of repairs. Before that it was fine - we got it in '87 and it didn't require anything but a new cat every 4-5 years until 2004 or so, when it needed a full overhaul ( duemainly to us never having caught on to that required more delicate treatment than the Vigilant that had preceeded it). But now after only 4 or 5 years from the last rebuild, it seems to want, if not a full rebuild, at least some serious attention. It wouldn't be that big a deal if VC parts hadn't gone so crazy - $200- $300 at the old prices, and that would include a new cat.

But while there are better stoves available now, the fact remains that we already have this one, and can make it "like new" for $300-650, while buying something new will cost us $2000+. And we like how it looks and loads. Hence the temptation to give it one more chance.

slindo, how frequently are you having to do these rebuilds? Seems very pricey. There are stoves that you wouldn't spend this much on for maintenance over 15-20 years.

 

[swestall]

I can see that, $650 is not soooo bad. When I got rid of my VC stoves, I was surprised that my new Hearthstone used abour 1/2 or less the wood than the VC did. That has to count for something. I can easily make the week with about an hours worth of wood effort; saves me a lot of time which is $$.
Right now you could get a PE T-5 or T-6 for about 2K. If you saved $650 and got $350 for the old VC you'd be a good part of the way there.
On the other hand, I have two VC's in the basement, which I can't seem to get motivated to even sell...
Whatever you decide, good luck with getting back to a warm hearth!

 

[tradergordo]

I finally finished my "Do it Yourself" Guide to making custom refractory replacement parts:
http://gordosoft.com/woodstove/refractoryDIY.htm

 

[swestall]

Hey Trader, that's great. Similar techniques can be used to pour refractory bottoms for old Round Oaks and Potbellies; you use sheet metal for the mould but the idea is the same. Good write up: Thanks!

 

[webbie]

I finally finished my "Do it Yourself" Guide to making custom refractory replacement parts:
http://gordosoft.com/woodstove/refractoryDIY.htm

Great job, Trader!

Maybe you can start a new thread with a duplicate post and also put a entry with a link in the wiki?

Cool stuff.

 

[eernest4]

Apologies for reviving an old thread. I'm trying to decide whether to rebuild or replace an early Encore.

Basically, I need a cat, heat exchanger, and maybe a refractory box.

I just priced the parts, and found that under the new crazy pricing the so-called "heat exchanger", a 12" x 24" or so piece of SS sheet with 4 bends in it, is now $150, and the refractory box $365!

Oddly enough, the full fireback kit, which contains these parts, plus the cast iron fireback and completely updraft door assembly, and a lot of small parts, is still "only" $450 - up since the last one I bought, but less than the price of just the two parts I need! So one has to wonder whether VC for some reason is trying to encourage people to buy the full kit, or just forgot to insanely raise the price along with the others (which, if truely the case, means anyone who may need to rebuild one of these stoves soon might want to grab a kit before VC notices)! The irony here is that you rarely need the cast iron parts in the kit unless the stove has been severely and repeatedly overfired, where the exchanger and refractory box seem to need replacement anytime the thing is apart.

The refractory boxes in these are not cast, BTW. They are made of a very light and mushy board simply cut to size and cemented together with refractory cement. Looks like if I could find the right board, I could make one about an hour. So maybe someome will eventually start making them at a reasonable price.

The other irony is that while I can probably save my old box, my "heat exchanger" is totally gone, but I'm pretty sure I have the old one from the last rebuilt, that would probably be reuseable. Only thing is, if I have it, its in my scrap depot in the woods where I leave possibly useful bits of metal - which is currently under about 4 feet of snow!

With VCs prices, perhaps I should start selling custom refractory replacements!

here is a link to maintaining & repairing your old cat or replacing it with an aftermarket cat.

http://www.condar.com/cleaning.html

Click on the cat repair & maintance manual download on the right ,when you get 2 the webpage & save the pfd file to your hard drive for future reference.

 

[BurningIsLove]

Great job, Trader!

Maybe you can start a new thread with a duplicate post and also put a entry with a link in the wiki?

Cool stuff.

Yeah, thats great material, trader. I'm going to be taking my stove apart coming spring time (whenever that arrives, slow at this rate!). Im reasonably confident the ceramic is going to be in OK shape since my secondary combustion is still working OK. But there is the chance that it might be cracked or have other signs of wear, and might as well replace it if its already exposed and under warranty.

Have you checked yours, yet? Curious how my dealer is going to be in handling this, as they were not of great assistance when I had my original problems with the stove. Would it be better to go to VC directly or through the dealer from where I bought the stove? All other parts seems to be in good shape. I dislodged the small, rectangular fire brick just inside the side loader, but it didnt crack and reattached easily w/ stove cement.

 

[tradergordo]

Im reasonably confident the ceramic is going to be in OK shape since my secondary combustion is still working OK. But there is the chance that it might be cracked or have other signs of wear, and might as well replace it if its already exposed and under warranty.

Have you checked yours, yet? Curious how my dealer is going to be in handling this, as they were not of great assistance when I had my original problems with the stove. Would it be better to go to VC directly or through the dealer from where I bought the stove? All other parts seems to be in good shape. I dislodged the small, rectangular fire brick just inside the side loader, but it didn't crack and reattached easily w/ stove cement.

I haven't checked mine yet this season (it looked fine after last season). You HAVE to go though your dealer for warranty replacements, I tried calling VC/CFM directly one time for something and they told me I had to go though the dealer. All they can do is help you get the right part number. Let us know how things look when you examine your stove and if you make a warranty claim how that goes as well.

 

[BurningIsLove]

I haven't checked mine yet this season (it looked fine after last season). You HAVE to go though your dealer for warranty replacements, I tried calling VC/CFM directly one time for something and they told me I had to go though the dealer. All they can do is help you get the right part number. Let us know how things look when you examine your stove and if you make a warranty claim how that goes as well.

I'm concerned about taking mine apart if the dealer is going to push back on warranty replacement parts, and if I inadvertently break something taking it apart. That ceramic piece is darn fragile.

 

[swestall]

VERMONT WHO???????????????

 

[tradergordo]

I haven't checked mine yet this season (it looked fine after last season). You HAVE to go though your dealer for warranty replacements, I tried calling VC/CFM directly one time for something and they told me I had to go though the dealer. All they can do is help you get the right part number. Let us know how things look when you examine your stove and if you make a warranty claim how that goes as well.

I'm concerned about taking mine apart if the dealer is going to push back on warranty replacement parts, and if I inadvertently break something taking it apart. That ceramic piece is darn fragile.

I wasn't going to take mine apart, you can inspect it from the top though the flue collar. The top portion of the ceramic liner is obviously very accessible, but you can also reach in with a digital camera and take pictures down each side too. That should be adequate for checking damage. I'm almost afraid to really take the stove apart for fear the ceramic will turn into a pile of dust, heh. . .

 

[RedRanger]

This is a really informative thread. It was tempting when I was looking at that Century insert awhile ago-but the cost of parts would quickly wipe out any upfront savings. I know that I have to replace what I have in the next 2 years and this thread has convinced me to go with the boys with the factory only 10 miles away. To the best of my knowledge, they have laid off no one,and I have only seen one post that is negative regarding a smell that won`t go away.

All in all, I know that I will feel much more comfortable buying a pe again,specially when the dealership is so knowlegable and helpful, even with helping me with my old beast.

 

[BurningIsLove]

I wasn't going to take mine apart, you can inspect it from the top though the flue collar. The top portion of the ceramic liner is obviously very accessible, but you can also reach in with a digital camera and take pictures down each side too. That should be adequate for checking damage. I'm almost afraid to really take the stove apart for fear the ceramic will turn into a pile of dust, heh. . .

Yeah, maybe I'll just stick w/ a visual inspection through the flue collar, and replace all easily accessible gaskets (both doors, ash pan, bypass). By all indications, the ceramic is fine.

 

[downeast]

Gordo you did it right ! Much thanks for an excellent post and link.
But then, why not get the sheets of ceramic fiber board e.g Duraboard, as posted previously, and glue them together ? It seems easier than molding? What would you use to glue the ceramic boards ?

 

[webbie]

DE, Durock and Wonderboard cannot stand up to the temps inside of firebox. These are relatively low temp cement, and fiberglass (900 degrees maybe) and some even have foam bubbles in them. Cement board may not ignite and it may not spread fire, but it is not designed to either insulate nor take firebox temps.

The lightweight boards would probably do the trick - Kaowool, fiberfrax, etc. - but they are fragile.

I think you could use a ceramic board and cover it with a thin stainless sheet...