Vermont Stove Company, Shelburne Insert

[mnowaczyk]

"Afterburner"? Does your have a cat?

Mine just have channels that act as afterburners to run the hot exhaust through chambers that are closer to the warm air circulation channels, ideally burning off particulates, but it really restricts the air flow a lot. So I can only close the bypass (for direct exhaust) when the stove is a solid 500 F or higher.

I suspect you have a different stove if you have a real "afterburner".

 

[Shelburn1981]

"Afterburner"? Does your have a cat?

Mine just have channels that act as afterburners to run the hot exhaust through chambers that are closer to the warm air circulation channels, ideally burning off particulates, but it really restricts the air flow a lot. So I can only close the bypass (for direct exhaust) when the stove is a solid 500 F or higher.

I suspect you have a different stove if you have a real "afterburner".

 

[Shelburn1981]

I think it is the same stove. Here is a picture, burning with the doors open. The secondary combustion chamber is in the back, it says Shelburn 1981 on it. That is what I was referring to as the "afterburner". I don't close the damper till the stove is almost 400 degrees, that is what the instructions say and it seems about right. I should take another picture without the fire burning.

 

[mnowaczyk]

Looking at yours, my parts stove looks like it may be more complete. It actually is complete except I took the blower motor from it because the one in my house died. Well, I guess it is complete with a blower motor needing replacement. It does look the same as yours, but yours shows a few "modifications" and no upright "andirons", which look cool with the sunshine on them.

 

[Skillings]

So glad this conversation is still going! I've been following it for over a year as I try to get my Shelburne up and running in my basement fireplace.

I set it up last year slammer style and had a bunch of issues with good draft/etc so I ended up buying a 8" liner and installing that (just finished the other day.) I can confidently say that this stove is a totally different animal hooked up to a liner!

The thing I still can't fix is the damn fan whistle. I fully rebuilt the fan and got it working 100% silent off the stove, but once I bolted that baby in there, it sounds like an air raid siren! It's not the fan, or seemingly some vibration... it's a whistle... I can't figure out how to adjust the airflow to fix it

Looking at yours, my parts stove looks like it may be more complete. It actually is complete except I took the blower motor from it because the one in my house died. Well, I guess it is complete with a blower motor needing replacement. It does look the same as yours, but yours shows a few "modifications" and no upright "andirons", which look cool with the sunshine on them.

S

 

[begreen]

Good going on getting the liner connected. It improves safely a lot and performance too. Not sure about the whistle but maybe you could make a simple stethoscope out of some tubing to isolate the location?

 

[Skillings]

Good going on getting the liner connected. It improves safely a lot and performance too. Not sure about the whistle but maybe you could make a simple stethoscope out of some tubing to isolate the location?

Good idea, might try it tomorrow... right now the damn unit runs so hot (~650-700F) that at a full burn the fan won't run anyways... basement is getting nice and toasty!

I can't stress enough how much the liner changed this stove! I know the safety thing and honestly that's the reason I went through the trouble of installing it in the first place, but if someone had told me this thing would run differently with it, I would have been more eager to try it.

It's a shame the blower on these stoves isn't more shielded from the heat to keep the warmth moving around, but for now I'll take it.

 

[begreen]

That's odd. Watch the stove carefully. If you have an IR thermometer check temps around the stove to make sure it isn't overfiring.

 

[mnowaczyk]

It sounds like you've got your draft going very strong. Is it also eating wood very quickly?

I am familiar with the overtemp thing with the fan and it is exactly the opposite of what you want it to do when the stove gets hot. I don't understand the logic behind it.

One thing you probably should be doing is using the damper to minimize the intake air and probably forcing all air through the afterburner channels (flue damper closed). With those two closed, unless you have massive leaks at the doors, it should slow down the burn and cool the temperatures. I think that 500-600 on the top corners is ideal personally.

I experienced the same thing with my fan, but it seems like a droning vibration noise where the stove and masonry fireplace seem to act like an amplifier for the tiny noise the fan makes. I think that maybe the metal mesh on the front vibrates. The fan off the stove was silent. I use the rheostat plug that came with my stove to reduce the power to the fan and it makes it almost bearable but still very loud. On full power it is just horrible.

I really would love it if we were able as a collective group to somehow come up with a better fan solution. It seems like it would be tough though because the fan has to be mounted via some screws. Maybe if rubber grommets were used to isolate the fan from the screws, there would be less transfer of the vibration / resonance. I'm thinking of this rubber grommets that go in the old ceiling fan blades back when when you had to assemble your own ceiling fans, but I think more would be required, and it would need to be very heat resistant.

 

[Skillings]

So it turns out that my wife is sensitive to the "smell" of the stove

It sounds like you've got your draft going very strong. Is it also eating wood very quickly?

I am familiar with the overtemp thing with the fan and it is exactly the opposite of what you want it to do when the stove gets hot. I don't understand the logic behind it.

One thing you probably should be doing is using the damper to minimize the intake air and probably forcing all air through the afterburner channels (flue damper closed). With those two closed, unless you have massive leaks at the doors, it should slow down the burn and cool the temperatures. I think that 500-600 on the top corners is ideal personally.

I experienced the same thing with my fan, but it seems like a droning vibration noise where the stove and masonry fireplace seem to act like an amplifier for the tiny noise the fan makes. I think that maybe the metal mesh on the front vibrates. The fan off the stove was silent. I use the rheostat plug that came with my stove to reduce the power to the fan and it makes it almost bearable but still very loud. On full power it is just horrible.

I really would love it if we were able as a collective group to somehow come up with a better fan solution. It seems like it would be tough though because the fan has to be mounted via some screws. Maybe if rubber grommets were used to isolate the fan from the screws, there would be less transfer of the vibration / resonance. I'm thinking of this rubber grommets that go in the old ceiling fan blades back when when you had to assemble your own ceiling fans, but I think more would be required, and it would need to be very heat resistant.

So we hit a snag when we found out that my wife seems to be sensitive to something related to the stove burning. Like I said, theres a really strong draft (30' flue, 8" liner) but theres a "smell" that I'm pretty sure is just the hot air... I told her I thought it was the dryness of the air... guess who won that discussion?

Once the stove hits 350 on the corner thermometer, I always move things to the rear bypass flue ports... doesn't seem to make much of a difference.

Your comment about door leak reminded me that last year the vertical door seal came off and I was never able to replace it... now I gotta wait for the damn thing to cool down to replace it! Also, I've been having some problems with coals falling out of the front (wish I hadn't inherited this thing and had bought something I could top load or with a bigger firebox) but based on your comment about the seals and the chewing through wood, maybe if I get the seals replaced, I wont feel the need to overload with wood... which will hopefully keep the coals from falling out the front (and in turn reduce any smoke.)

With regards to my wife's "sensitivity", do more modern units with converters/etc. burn cleaner? Should I try to find a used one on CL? I'm going to see what properly sealing the stove does first... but we're in CT and heat with electricity only (I know, I know...) so my hope with this stove was to offset $600 electric bills from December - March.

 

[mnowaczyk]

I found that the damper for the flu that forces the air through the back burners doesn't close the same way on both of my stoves. One seems to close much more tightly while the other still allows most of the air out the top. Perhaps yours is similar to mine that allows most of the air out the top. Closing the damper on the flu in mine makes a huge difference and I often can't close it until the stove is plenty hot.

 

[mnowaczyk]

Oh, on the different stove on craigslist comment… I had picked up a very early Vermont castings stove that had two blowers on the front and I was trying to decide which stove to keep. One of the fans was not working on the Vermont castings and also the great was broken. The great could be welded back together apparently and the guy that bought the stove from me ended up fixing the second fan and loving the stove. I had tried it but compared to the Vermont stove company stove I thought it was actually much poorer quality. I think that the Vermont stove company also put out more heat overall but of course I was using the Vermont castings with only one fan working. I am pretty confident that the Vermont castings was much quieter. I was lucky in the way both stoves were very pretty in my opinion but I still think the Vermont stove company is a better looking stove. The noise sucks though

 

[Skillings]

I love this stove, just was wondering if other (newer) stoves burned any cleaner and might help eliminate the "complain" factor from the wife. I'll have to see if there's any front adjustment on the tightness of the damper closing... the installation I did with the liner pretty much eliminates pulling the stove out because the adaptor is screwed into the top of the stove using self tapping screws

I need to get the temps down because the lowest I can tune the running temps right now is ~750

 

[mnowaczyk]

I thought get I'd share a video on one of the things I do to get the stove kicking or burn off coals.








Edit: major bummer frying my rheostat. All I've been able to find is this 3-speed adjuster as a replacement.

https://www.1000bulbs.com/product/91569/GROW-ACSC.html?gclid=CJaJkq_JsNECFcmFswodJBUPfA
Maybe I will need to rig up a custom outlet in the baseboard next to the fireplace with a rheostat in the wall to address this issue.

 

[Skillings]

Thanks for sharing! I liked the idea of a video and tried to record something in response, but it didn't quite work (not enough space.)

That being said, I went out this AM and picked up replacement seals for the main firebox doors and the ash tray door. I was actually in the middle of my test fire when you posted your video (great day in the northeast to mess with fire!)

The seals made a huge difference and I actually discovered that one of the doors had blown out the foam seal around the glass, so I ended up throwing some seal in there too so the firebox is pretty air tight.

The stove isn't burning anywhere near as roaring as it was before and I'm working on tuning the thermostatic damper to keep the fire from smoldering while also trying to keep the temp < 600.

Much more promising now with the new rope seals.

I thought get I'd share a video on one of the things I do to get the stove kicking or burn off coals.








Edit: major bummer frying my rheostat. All I've been able to find is this 3-speed adjuster as a replacement.

https://www.1000bulbs.com/product/91569/GROW-ACSC.html?gclid=CJaJkq_JsNECFcmFswodJBUPfA
Maybe I will need to rig up a custom outlet in the baseboard next to the fireplace with a rheostat in the wall to address this issue.

 

[mnowaczyk]

Thanks for sharing! I liked the idea of a video and tried to record something in response, but it didn't quite work (not enough space.)

That being said, I went out this AM and picked up replacement seals for the main firebox doors and the ash tray door. I was actually in the middle of my test fire when you posted your video (great day in the northeast to mess with fire!)

The seals made a huge difference and I actually discovered that one of the doors had blown out the foam seal around the glass, so I ended up throwing some seal in there too so the firebox is pretty air tight.

The stove isn't burning anywhere near as roaring as it was before and I'm working on tuning the thermostatic damper to keep the fire from smoldering while also trying to keep the temp < 600.

Much more promising now with the new rope seals.

Glad to hear for both of us honestly. Glad to know that my draft isn't significantly lacking.

I have the slammer install, but I have a ~40 foot tall mostly interior wall chimney (which some call an exterior because one side is exposed) with a 13"x13" clay liner (way too big). My chimney drafts so well on cold days, that I can dump my ash into my ash bucket and not really worry about the poof of ash dust because I watch it all get sucked into the stove as long as the flue damper is open, even if the ash bucket is a foot or so away from the stove. (On the down side, when the weather changes to warmer, I get significant ash smell in the house.)

The install where the duct is sheet-metal-screwed to the stove... how did you work that out? Did you put the top face plate on the stove after installing the insert?

In the manual, it seems to instruct you to build more of a "hood" that's just above the height of the top of the stove (no positive connection like it sounds like you've done). I wonder if you will be able to get your chimney cleaning brushes up through the stove flue damper. I certainly would not be able to get my 13"x13" brush up through there. I'm sure an 8" round would be easier, but I'm guessing you are able to more easily do a top-down cleaning than me with my ~40 foot chimney on a 12-10 pitch slate roof.

Here's a video of my chimney that protrudes from the 4th floor attic in my house from several years ago.

 

[Skillings]

At some point I'll take some pictures, but for now I'll post some links to what I used:

http://m.ebay.com/itm/Wood-Stove-In...3A7af051a41590a2a405abf61dffc69678%7Ciid%3A11

I used that in an 8" design (he sells it somewhere on the site) and predrilled holes through the top of the stove (into the cavity the fan uses to move air.)

I married the adaptor to the liner at the height it would need to be when attached to the stove and had it hanging in the fireplace before I pushed the insert into the area.

Then I matched the liner with the predrilled holes on the top of the stove and used a 1/4" ratchet to screw in self tapping hex head metal screws.

I also ran a bead of cement on both sides of the adaptor to create a bit of a seal between the stove and liner.

It's not "permanently attached" but it sure as hell is gonna take some effort to get it in and out . I'm still toying with the idea of a newer stove since the blower I rebuilt stopped working again, but most modern stoves need a 6" liner and I just dropped $$ on this 30' 8" liner so I might try to get the winter out of it.

Glad to hear for both of us honestly. Glad to know that my draft isn't significantly lacking.

I have the slammer install, but I have a ~40 foot tall mostly interior wall chimney (which some call an exterior because one side is exposed) with a 13"x13" clay liner (way too big). My chimney drafts so well on cold days, that I can dump my ash into my ash bucket and not really worry about the poof of ash dust because I watch it all get sucked into the stove as long as the flue damper is open, even if the ash bucket is a foot or so away from the stove. (On the down side, when the weather changes to warmer, I get significant ash smell in the house.)

The install where the duct is sheet-metal-screwed to the stove... how did you work that out? Did you put the top face plate on the stove after installing the insert?

In the manual, it seems to instruct you to build more of a "hood" that's just above the height of the top of the stove (no positive connection like it sounds like you've done). I wonder if you will be able to get your chimney cleaning brushes up through the stove flue damper. I certainly would not be able to get my 13"x13" brush up through there. I'm sure an 8" round would be easier, but I'm guessing you are able to more easily do a top-down cleaning than me with my ~40 foot chimney on a 12-10 pitch slate roof.

Here's a video of my chimney that protrudes from the 4th floor attic in my house from several years ago.

 

[Skillings]

Oh, and to the question regarding cleaning, I have a very easy roof to climb up on, so I plan on "top-downing" it

At some point I'll take some pictures, but for now I'll post some links to what I used:

http://m.ebay.com/itm/Wood-Stove-Insert-Adapter-Low-Clearance-6-Flue-Size-/172094441517?hash=item2811a0c82d:m:mPObqV7OzEKOi-Acg1ilEBg&_trkparms=pageci%3A5ef82be8-d524-11e6-b3b2-74dbd1802aa0%7Cparentrq%3A7af051a41590a2a405abf61dffc69678%7Ciid%3A11

I used that in an 8" design (he sells it somewhere on the site) and predrilled holes through the top of the stove (into the cavity the fan uses to move air.)

I married the adaptor to the liner at the height it would need to be when attached to the stove and had it hanging in the fireplace before I pushed the insert into the area.

Then I matched the liner with the predrilled holes on the top of the stove and used a 1/4" ratchet to screw in self tapping hex head metal screws.

I also ran a bead of cement on both sides of the adaptor to create a bit of a seal between the stove and liner.

It's not "permanently attached" but it sure as hell is gonna take some effort to get it in and out . I'm still toying with the idea of a newer stove since the blower I rebuilt stopped working again, but most modern stoves need a 6" liner and I just dropped $$ on this 30' 8" liner so I might try to get the winter out of it.

 

[Skillings]

Now it seems like I've uncovered a 3rd or 4th (I've lost count) issue... with the fan not working, the thermostatic damper coil isn't getting enough air moving over it, which is keeping the damper shut despite the fact that the fire is simply smoldering. Then if I crack it even slightly, the fire goes bonkers and kicks up to 600 in the blink of an eye.

I think I'll be getting a ball bearing fan and setting it up with some sort of jig to blow across the front of the fan and try to supplement the failure of the built in fan

 

[mnowaczyk]

I have not had this fan from my second/parts stove fail me. The stove I am using was apparently only used a single season for a few fires before the guy decided it was too loud and basically never had a fire in his house again for the next 25 years. He also had it in a formal living room that he never used. (My house is designed like spiral coming up from the fireplace though.).

The parts stove I bought was well-used and the glass was like yours, mov my around in the doors, and I think I remember the seals kind of falling apart. It's way back in the corner of my garage now under and extremely heavy countertop, in the corner between two cabinets. I can reach individual pieces, but the stove is stuck there. Fortunately, the motor and all parts should be accessible if needed though. That first fan is probably an original, and perhaps it was failing me as designed due to temperature or something. I do remember that the fan(s) had an external little fan that looked like it was there to cool the fan motor. I can't recall, but think this may have been an issue with one of mine.

 

[Skillings]

I'm pretty sure I over cooked mine when the stove was running at 800+ with the leaky doors and other seals... I have a stand fan pointed at the stove right now to try to keep the thermostatic damper operational, if that doesn't seem to be helping, I may pull the unit out during the week when I'm not firing it and see what melted. I know the motor itself has a temp shutoff built in, so I'm guessing the wire nuts I used either melted and then shorted or just melted and aren't working (either of those scenarios is obviously easy to repair... if the fan motor is dead, I'm not putting the extra effort in and will just use something external.)

I have not had this fan from my second/parts stove fail me. The stove I am using was apparently only used a single season for a few fires before the guy decided it was too loud and basically never had a fire in his house again for the next 25 years. He also had it in a formal living room that he never used. (My house is designed like spiral coming up from the fireplace though.).

The parts stove I bought was well-used and the glass was like yours, mov my around in the doors, and I think I remember the seals kind of falling apart. It's way back in the corner of my garage now under and extremely heavy countertop, in the corner between two cabinets. I can reach individual pieces, but the stove is stuck there. Fortunately, the motor and all parts should be accessible if needed though. That first fan is probably an original, and perhaps it was failing me as designed due to temperature or something. I do remember that the fan(s) had an external little fan that looked like it was there to cool the fan motor. I can't recall, but think this may have been an issue with one of mine.

 

[Skillings]

Update: an hour in and burn is holding steady at 500 with the damper fully closed and the fan pointed right at the unit from ~12' away. Room temp has (obviously) also benefited from the increased movement of air

I'm going to see if I can get the coal bed reduced a little and get the box loaded up to try to keep it warm over night

 

[mnowaczyk]

I like to sleep in, and I rarely can get a good overnight burn without some special logs or knots that will burn forever and put off little amounts of heat.

Another thing I hate is laying in bed in the morning and hearing the loud fan knowing that it's just blowing cold air around, and making all that racket.

 

[Skillings]

I solved that problem by blowing that fan up

 

[Skillings]

I solved that problem by blowing that fan up

Update so far (feels like it's been weeks with this thing burning) says that the things I've tried have been working well for the most part.

Even after replacing all the rope seals and getting the thermostatic damper hooked back up, I'm having trouble keeping a long term fire under 600 in the upper right hand corner. I have a run of the mill IR laser thermometer that seems pretty iffy with accuracy which says temps are closer to the mid 500s so... whatever close enough.

It turns out burning out the rear Fan was a blessing in disguise because I've now taken a typical pedestal oscillating house fan and pointed it across the front of the stove and my basement is reading a good 75-78 degrees all day. The problem now is that the basement heat isn't doing a good job of circulating throughout the house... so I have some work to do to improve that.

I've burned through quite a bit of wood but since overhauling the seals, the pace has slowed down. I heated, my basement is right around 50... most of the day while tending to a fire the basement sits in the high 70s, then I load her up with some larger pieces around 11 every night and when I wake up at 6-8 am, the basement still reads 65-68 and there are still enough coals to throw some cardboard or paper into the box with some smaller split wood and get the thermometer reading 300 again in about 15 minutes...

So I've still got work to do, but I'm learning a lot and definitely making progress! Now we'll see how this months electric bill looks...