Has anyone seen a viesmann in the US other than at a trade show? Does someone sell them?
Anyone know how their modulation of output works? Any impressions?
Anyone know how their modulation of output works? Any impressions?
Viesmann
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Eric Johnson
Mod Emeritus
You can probably find all the information you want to know about Viesmann here:
http://www.heatinghelp.com
Go to The Wall forum. They talk about Viesmans and modulating/condensing boilers all the time. I'd post a direct link but for some reason, my laptop can't access the site. Must be I asked a stupid question and got banned!
http://www.heatinghelp.com
Go to The Wall forum. They talk about Viesmans and modulating/condensing boilers all the time. I'd post a direct link but for some reason, my laptop can't access the site. Must be I asked a stupid question and got banned!
If I can ever get the WAF up high enough, I am gonna buy one of those and sneak it across the pond.
"The unique automatic heat-up
system ensures that the
combustion chamber temperature
required for optimum combustion
is reached within three minutes of
start-up."
Intriguing!!
"The unique automatic heat-up
system ensures that the
combustion chamber temperature
required for optimum combustion
is reached within three minutes of
start-up."
Intriguing!!
When I called Viessmann back East a few months ago, they were not importing wood boilers... yet. Their oil boilers are very popular up here, and my son's is a very impressive piece of engineering. If their woodies ever get over here, I will sure look at them.
I am really thinking about sneaking one if I know that the modulation is actually modulation. And, not a incorrect translation from German to English.
Modulation could be the holy grail of wood burning
Modulation could be the holy grail of wood burning
guy01
Member
Great question???
I will put it how I think it makes most sense. If someone doesn't like my explanation please correct it.
If I can change my boiler to operate with differing quantities of wood effciently I would consider it modulating.
If I can change my boiler to operate with differing levels of output (amounts of heat) effciently I would consider it modulating.
I will put it how I think it makes most sense. If someone doesn't like my explanation please correct it.
If I can change my boiler to operate with differing quantities of wood effciently I would consider it modulating.
If I can change my boiler to operate with differing levels of output (amounts of heat) effciently I would consider it modulating.
As I recall, someone over on HeatingHelp corrected me to say that my Viessmann oil boiler is NOT a mod/con. So maybe modulating is not the greatest thing since sliced bread?
Nofossil
Moderator Emeritus
Guy said:
I always chime in when invited ;-)
What I'm looking for that might be called modulation is air control to deal with the surface area and producer gas generation rate variation between different loads of wood. If you load up with busted up pallets, my EKO will generate more fuel gas than it can burn - not good. With a load of all big rounds, it blows too much air through for the amount of flammable gas produced.
I I can't get that, I'll settle for matching the output to the heat load.
Looks like many of the boiler companies are coming out with wall hung condensing gas boilers. But how about oil fired? The Monitor FCX is a condensing oil unit.
Ever seen the electronics in these wall hung units? Even the wall hung DHW propane units can be a little scary. Everthing is great when they work, when they fail, it's probably cheaper to buy a new one.
heaterman
Minister of Fire
RE wall hungs, mod/cons, gas and oil and Viessmann wood burners.
I sell and install a lot of Viessmann equipment. It is without peer in the boiler industry IMHO. Whatever they choose to manufacture is done with the primary goal being how good can we make it rather than what price point do we want to hit. Sometimes I wish they paid a tad more attention to the price point but then they wouldn't be Viessmann. I long and pray for the day when they bring their wood and pellet fired equipment over here. Friends of mine who have been to "Der Faderland" and seen their stuff make me drool when describing the products they see there.
Modern heating equipment IS more complex than the old standing pilot gas boiler that lasted for 50 years+. Most (not all) the new stuff is just not going to last as long. It can't due to its design. Average life of a new gas furnace industry wide is now only 11 years from what I read. Flue passageways in a standard cast iron boiler are measured in inches. Flue passageways in a modern modulating/condensing (mod/con) boiler are measured in millimeters or in the case of Viessmann's Vitodens model, tenths of a millimeter. Those kind of tolerances leave little to no room for error, hence the absolute necessity of having them professionally service every year. To give you an idea of the stresses involved in a modern gas fired condenser take a look at the afore mentioned Vitodens. The heat exchanger is a rectangular piece of drawn 316TI stainless steel which if laid out straight would be approximately 30 or so feet long. This tube is coiled in a continuous loop about 12" in diameter. The cross section of the tube is roughly 1 1/2" by 5/8". Flue gas passes between each loop at a speed of 45 MPH (you read that correctly, 45MPH). Now here's the amazing part. The flue gas temperature drops from 1,700* down to within 18-20* of return water temp in that 1 1/2" space. How long does it take to travel 1 1/2" at 45 miles per hour?.......Those kinds of things just blow me away when I think about the energy transfer rate!
Compare your car to what you drove 25-30 years ago (if you're old enough) It now has fuel injection, electronic engine control that continuously monitors everything going on in the engine and makes adjustments while underway, plus a 4-6 speed automatic transmission with electronic lockup of the torque converter. A 70's model got half the mileage and ran like a pile of junk.
Term definitions:
Modulating, as it pertains to boilers. The ability to regulate heat/btu output based on a calculated parameter, usually a target water temperature. The burner will reduce it's output through reduction of fuel and air input as the target temp is reached and ramp back up if more load is applied in the form of falling water temps. Think of modulation as cruise control for your burner.
Condensing, as it applies to boilers. The ability of a heating appliance to extract so much heat from the flue gas that it changes state from a vapor back into a liquid thereby giving up the latent heat held in the flue gas. When captured, this heat can be transferred into the conditioned space.
Complexity? better get used to it. More efficiency and complexity go hand in hand for now.
I sell and install a lot of Viessmann equipment. It is without peer in the boiler industry IMHO. Whatever they choose to manufacture is done with the primary goal being how good can we make it rather than what price point do we want to hit. Sometimes I wish they paid a tad more attention to the price point but then they wouldn't be Viessmann. I long and pray for the day when they bring their wood and pellet fired equipment over here. Friends of mine who have been to "Der Faderland" and seen their stuff make me drool when describing the products they see there.
Modern heating equipment IS more complex than the old standing pilot gas boiler that lasted for 50 years+. Most (not all) the new stuff is just not going to last as long. It can't due to its design. Average life of a new gas furnace industry wide is now only 11 years from what I read. Flue passageways in a standard cast iron boiler are measured in inches. Flue passageways in a modern modulating/condensing (mod/con) boiler are measured in millimeters or in the case of Viessmann's Vitodens model, tenths of a millimeter. Those kind of tolerances leave little to no room for error, hence the absolute necessity of having them professionally service every year. To give you an idea of the stresses involved in a modern gas fired condenser take a look at the afore mentioned Vitodens. The heat exchanger is a rectangular piece of drawn 316TI stainless steel which if laid out straight would be approximately 30 or so feet long. This tube is coiled in a continuous loop about 12" in diameter. The cross section of the tube is roughly 1 1/2" by 5/8". Flue gas passes between each loop at a speed of 45 MPH (you read that correctly, 45MPH). Now here's the amazing part. The flue gas temperature drops from 1,700* down to within 18-20* of return water temp in that 1 1/2" space. How long does it take to travel 1 1/2" at 45 miles per hour?.......Those kinds of things just blow me away when I think about the energy transfer rate!
Compare your car to what you drove 25-30 years ago (if you're old enough) It now has fuel injection, electronic engine control that continuously monitors everything going on in the engine and makes adjustments while underway, plus a 4-6 speed automatic transmission with electronic lockup of the torque converter. A 70's model got half the mileage and ran like a pile of junk.
Term definitions:
Modulating, as it pertains to boilers. The ability to regulate heat/btu output based on a calculated parameter, usually a target water temperature. The burner will reduce it's output through reduction of fuel and air input as the target temp is reached and ramp back up if more load is applied in the form of falling water temps. Think of modulation as cruise control for your burner.
Condensing, as it applies to boilers. The ability of a heating appliance to extract so much heat from the flue gas that it changes state from a vapor back into a liquid thereby giving up the latent heat held in the flue gas. When captured, this heat can be transferred into the conditioned space.
Complexity? better get used to it. More efficiency and complexity go hand in hand for now.
Thanks for your opinions and thoughts on the topic heaterman. I now want one of their "vitrolig" line more than ever now. And, it doesn't seem I can have it.
The Indianapolis branch of Viessmann shut the door hard in my face about getting a vitrolig. Monday I plan on going to a meeting with a client who has a factory in China. I'll ask him if he can get his hands on a boiler through their Chinese distribution center. PS I can do all of this legally, and routinely bring electornics and equpimpment over from Europe and Asia.
As for technology
Heaterman, sometimes I think that if you went back even 50 -70 years and tried to explain some the concepts we use in our everday lives that they would have you committed.
This weekend my cousin directed me from google maps to show me where he works. I switched to satelite mode and he directed me from building to building until I saw which building was his.
He works in Missawa Japan
The Indianapolis branch of Viessmann shut the door hard in my face about getting a vitrolig. Monday I plan on going to a meeting with a client who has a factory in China. I'll ask him if he can get his hands on a boiler through their Chinese distribution center. PS I can do all of this legally, and routinely bring electornics and equpimpment over from Europe and Asia.
As for technology
Heaterman, sometimes I think that if you went back even 50 -70 years and tried to explain some the concepts we use in our everday lives that they would have you committed.
This weekend my cousin directed me from google maps to show me where he works. I switched to satelite mode and he directed me from building to building until I saw which building was his.
He works in Missawa Japan
Modulation is great when it comes to gas, but modulating an oil fired boiler, I haven't seen that yet. Yes, it's true the technology is here to stay, but it's not to say it's gonna be cheap to maintain. Like I said, they're great when they're running good, when they fail. it's not cheap, and you can't "rig" it to run temporily either. True, it's like today's cars they run great until they fail, then call a tow truck. With today's electronics, your house better be protected from power surge and lightning strike, because just one surge can toast all the electronic controls in not only your new burner/boiler, but all your new "high efficiency" equipment.
Just to clearify, we were talking about modulating with a wood boiler. You guys keeping talking about oil and gas. Just want to be clear.
Zenon claims he has seen the Viessmann wood gasification boiler being built at the EKO Vimar plant..
He could have been halucinating, however?? I know he has visited mamny boiler manufacturers across Europe. He knows most of the major players.
hr
He could have been halucinating, however?? I know he has visited mamny boiler manufacturers across Europe. He knows most of the major players.
hr
heaterman
Minister of Fire
From what I've heard through the people that I've talked "off the record" with about their wood equipment, the powers that be at Viessmann (private family owned company) feel that there is not enough demand nor are fuel prices high enough here to make their high end wood equipment available to us. I disagree but then I'm not the company looking at hundreds of thousands of $$.$$ it costs to get approvals from UL and ASME in order to sell here. From what I understand the Vitolig 300 would sell for over $10K here..........maybe they're right............add installation and the automatic fuel storage hopper to that and you'd soon be crowding $18-20K What I'd love to see is for them to buy out or build a manufacturing facility here in North America somewhere. You could all get on the phone or e-mail Viessmann and put a bug in their ear..........who knows.
I think there may be some truth to Zenon's statement about the manufacturing facility building the Vitolig boiler. Viessmann is a multinational company that builds their stuff all over the world. They use many facilities to build the products they design. Wood and other alternative fuels like heat pumps, fuel cells and solar are becoming a larger and larger part of their product line. They have some really cool solar stuff. I know that they just bought a company that makes very large wood and bio-mass fired boilers. Well up into the millions of btu's output. They see the handwriting on the wall more clearly than a lot of companies.
Modulating oil is available across the pond. Both Viessmann and Buderus have oil burners out that are so clean running they actually burn with a blue flame. I think that Buderus is bringing theirs here this year in non-modulating form. Dealers may sell and install them only after attending special training for them in the Buderus facility in New Hampshire. These are a totally different type of unit and definitely NOT you father's oil burner. Service by a non certified person voids any and all warranties on the burner and equipment it's installed on.
I think there may be some truth to Zenon's statement about the manufacturing facility building the Vitolig boiler. Viessmann is a multinational company that builds their stuff all over the world. They use many facilities to build the products they design. Wood and other alternative fuels like heat pumps, fuel cells and solar are becoming a larger and larger part of their product line. They have some really cool solar stuff. I know that they just bought a company that makes very large wood and bio-mass fired boilers. Well up into the millions of btu's output. They see the handwriting on the wall more clearly than a lot of companies.
Modulating oil is available across the pond. Both Viessmann and Buderus have oil burners out that are so clean running they actually burn with a blue flame. I think that Buderus is bringing theirs here this year in non-modulating form. Dealers may sell and install them only after attending special training for them in the Buderus facility in New Hampshire. These are a totally different type of unit and definitely NOT you father's oil burner. Service by a non certified person voids any and all warranties on the burner and equipment it's installed on.
The viesmann indy guys noted the lack of asme ul listing and blamed that as the reason.
For all I know Zenon has never told a lie, and EKO builds 100% of their equip in EKO's factories. I was just mocking
For all I know Zenon has never told a lie, and EKO builds 100% of their equip in EKO's factories. I was just mocking
heaterman
Minister of Fire
As I alluded too above, Zenon may very well be correct. Wouldn't surprise me a bit. Viessmann looks for low cost manufacturing just like any other manufacturer.
Codes and listings to sell here frustrate the heck out of all the Euro guys because their stuff already meets a much tougher standard than UL or ASME. The German TUV rating is the highest bar there is in heating equipment from what I've learned.
Codes and listings to sell here frustrate the heck out of all the Euro guys because their stuff already meets a much tougher standard than UL or ASME. The German TUV rating is the highest bar there is in heating equipment from what I've learned.
Modulation of a wood boiler could be cool and achievable by utilizing extensive control with analog inputs and outputs. It wouldn't necessarily be as precise as a gas modulating unit, but it could be just the beginning.
MPI (Monitor Products) makes a condensing oil unit. Even though they're located in NJ, they have Japanese roots, I don't know if they still are, but I know their burner is made here.
MPI (Monitor Products) makes a condensing oil unit. Even though they're located in NJ, they have Japanese roots, I don't know if they still are, but I know their burner is made here.
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