What a Hack Job!

[Shane]

Our company did an inspection of a DV gas FS stove the other day. Arrive and look at stove. Stove is vented into masonry chimney using Simpson Duravent components. Anyone worth his salt as an installer knows there is a masonry conversion kit for such a purpose. This install has a piece of DV pipe simply stuffed into the chimney connected to 2-ply single wall liner that extends to the top. That's wrong in it's self.... but wait kids there's more. Take a look at the pictures. You see how it's terminated on top. (Note I couldn't get a picture of the bottom because the lady wouldn't let me back in the house, she's pissed that we're saying this is wrong) Now to the naked eye it looks like a rigged DV termination. One cap for fresh air one cap for exhaust. Oh no. The lower of the two caps.... that's a hot water heater. So as I know Elks head is already exploding, I will finish the story. The local AHJ gets called into the matter as it's my companies opinion that it is wrong and the installing companies opinion that it is right. So the AHJ gets pissed that he's relined a hot water heater since us chimney monkeys aren't allowed to do that. But the workmanship on top is ok, the improper use of components is ok, cutting the chimney cap to make it fit is ok, tuckpointing the brick with silicone is ok. I think you see where this is going. Basically at the end of the day the AHJ made the installing company glob more silicone on the top plate to block a crack that was between one of the caps and the "top plate". In this transaction we pointed out everything that was wrong with this install and everything we said was by the book. The AHJ has not only let a possibly dangerous situation go unchecked but has smeared our companies name through the mud. The city inspector says it's ok so it must be and now we have two potential customers that think we're trying to scam them for unecessary repairs. I am heavily considering leaving the industry at this point. I just can't win.

http://w3.tribcsp.com/~aahcinc/100_0926.jpg

http://w3.tribcsp.com/~aahcinc/100_0923.jpg

 

[Bushfire]

I know next to nothing about installing this stuff, but even I can tell that that is a complete hack-job, and even if it's not from an inspection point of view, it looks f-ing terrible. Where did all the care in peoples work go? I watch This Old House and often think that it's only the ultra rich that can expect craftsmanship such as you see on that show anymore. Just compare the trim work in a 1940s/1950s house to one built today, and care/craftsmanship and even art have been replaced by how-fast-can-I-get-done-with-this-job work.

I've given up on asking "pro's" to do a lot of stuff as they either do as highlighted above in the post, or they over-charge, or they never return calls when you ask for a quote on something. I've now asked two seperate companies (one of them twice) for quotes on lining the chimney that serves my basement stove, and have not heard from either. I can't think I'm going to get great service or a great job on work that i can't even seem to get them interested in in the first place - blows my mind.

 

[wg_bent]

It's got nothing to do with pro's or home owners, it comes down to a matter of craftsmanship, care, and competence.

THAT install is exactly why I don't allow "pros" to do almost anything on my house. It takes me longer to find an honest company with competent employees than it takes for me to do most things myself. I care, my family's safety is at stake, and I know a job is done right when I'm done. Actually most things take me longer than the pros, but if I have to redo their work, it costs a lot more and and it takes more time.

I'm not saying that there aren't good Pros out there, sounds like your one of them, but just talking to a person on the phone to hire them you just can't tell.

 

[MrGriz]

Wow, that's about all you can say after looking at that job, Wow.

You guys hit on it. You show me a true professional or craftsman that would walk away with his name attached to work like that. It's just a shame that people don't take pride in their work any more. Unfortunately, you are seeing it in all areas from trades to service workers and professionals. I would be hot as he(( if I paid good money for a job like that; not to mention wondering if any of it was safe.

 

[elkimmeg]

Got to run but I will comment of this later. What a piece of chit for workmanship. So where is the fresh air feed?

 

[Shane]

Got to run but I will comment of this later. What a piece of chit for workmanship. So where is the fresh air feed?

There isn't one. It's being drawn from inside the chase, and it's drawing room air since it's not sealed up where it enters the chase. Had the proper masonry conversion kit been installed it would draw air from inside the chase but the air inside the chase would be drawn through the conversion kit termination, rather than from in the room as it sets now. Like I said I wish we could have gotten pictures from the inside. Like I mentioned the person selling the house has put us in the scam artist category and didn't want us back in her house.

 

[kevinmoelk]

Like Bushfire, I don't know too much about what is legal and necessary, but just from looking at the pictures there's no way that I'd pay for that work. I normally do all of my own work, like Warren stated, it usually takes me longer, but the job gets done right.

There are good professionals out there, no doubt, but they are difficult to find. When I was doing exterior work I always took before and after pictures of my work. Then I would ask the customer if they wouldn't mind being a reference for me and possibly receive a phone call or e-mail. About 25% of the people said yes, the others said no, not because they weren't satisfied with my work, but because they didn't want to be a reference... no big deal. I eventually ended up with a whole photo book that I could show potential customers and a list of my previous customers who could be contacted about myself, my crew, and the quality of my work. That picture album ended up being the best sales tool I had.

The work above is crap. Though it may pass inspection (I don't know how) anyone who uses an 1" of silicone anywhere on anything is a hack.

Shane, it would have been funny to give the installer a pair of glasses and a level.

-Kevin

 

[elkimmeg]

I do a lot of work for the church and when requested for refferences ,I tell them to call Father Connerly. His word is the closest I can get to God.

 

[Gooserider]

Is there any "higher authority" that you can take this to Shane?

Does this job actually violate code in an explicitly unsafe way? Or is it only a question of aesthetics (I agree it's a major hack job) and possibly less than preferred practices?

I certainly would scream about the AHJ accepting work that was a safety hazard. At the very least I'd see if your local gov't entities have public meetings where one can stand up and make public complaints to the AHJ's bosses. Of course then you might HAVE to leave the industry as you'd likely never get something approved in that town again...

(My gripe with the gov't run inspection business - I'm not objecting so much to the inspection as much as the arbitrary power that the inspectors have with limited ability to appeal their decisions...)

Gooserider

 

[Hogwildz]

Our company did an inspection of a DV gas FS stove the other day. Arrive and look at stove. Stove is vented into masonry chimney using Simpson Duravent components. Anyone worth his salt as an installer knows there is a masonry conversion kit for such a purpose. This install has a piece of DV pipe simply stuffed into the chimney connected to 2-ply single wall liner that extends to the top. That's wrong in it's self.... but wait kids there's more. Take a look at the pictures. You see how it's terminated on top. (Note I couldn't get a picture of the bottom because the lady wouldn't let me back in the house, she's pissed that we're saying this is wrong) Now to the naked eye it looks like a rigged DV termination. One cap for fresh air one cap for exhaust. Oh no. The lower of the two caps.... that's a hot water heater. So as I know Elks head is already exploding, I will finish the story. The local AHJ gets called into the matter as it's my companies opinion that it is wrong and the installing companies opinion that it is right. So the AHJ gets pissed that he's relined a hot water heater since us chimney monkeys aren't allowed to do that. But the workmanship on top is ok, the improper use of components is ok, cutting the chimney cap to make it fit is ok, tuckpointing the brick with silicone is ok. I think you see where this is going. Basically at the end of the day the AHJ made the installing company glob more silicone on the top plate to block a crack that was between one of the caps and the "top plate". In this transaction we pointed out everything that was wrong with this install and everything we said was by the book. The AHJ has not only let a possibly dangerous situation go unchecked but has smeared our companies name through the mud. The city inspector says it's ok so it must be and now we have two potential customers that think we're trying to scam them for unecessary repairs. I am heavily considering leaving the industry at this point. I just can't win.

http://w3.tribcsp.com/~aahcinc/100_0926.jpg

http://w3.tribcsp.com/~aahcinc/100_0923.jpg

Is that a siamese mushroomhead? And the homeowner accepts that? Well so be it.
Theres got to be some kind of award for that.

 

[laynes69]

Thats why I will research and do most things myself. If it goes beyond me then I will hire. I would be one pissed off person to have something like that on my home. Thats rediculous.

 

[GVA]

Shane it'll be fine..... I'm sure once that thing gets fired up and the unit is starving for air it will be using the water heater flue as the fresh air intake and help pull all that nice CO gas back into the house....... :sick:
Keep us informed on this one...... You'll be vindicated...

But anyway isn't there a minimum space apart that caps need to be besides the vertical termination?


EDIT And It's another one without a crown........... Hey ELK Check it out we could of saved T&B some cash on his chimney repairs by using that silicone ;-P

 

[Corey]

Is that a siamese mushroomhead? And the homeowner accepts that? Well so be it.
Theres got to be some kind of award for that.

I think part of the key here is that this is a homeowner that is selling a house. Most likely very touchy about being told anything is wrong with the house, even more so with 100's to 1000's of dolars might be required for a fix. Anyone on the purchasing side would easily accept the fact of the chimney needing to be totally redone in a proper manner.

It is kind of like talking to two people about an auto accident...you can guarantee the person that feels guilty about causing it will say things like "I tapped their car" or "bumped them" , etc. The person on the receiving end will use words like "they smashed into me" "crashed into my car" etc.

Corey

 

[Gooserider]

If the person selling the house has a sign listing a Realtor I've heard that you can cause INTERESTING stinks if you tell the Real Estate agency about the issue. There are rules about agents being required to tell potential purchasers about KNOWN problems, and that failure to do so can lead to significant liability issues for the Realtor. The key word there is KNOWN, but if you send the realtor a certified letter, they can't say they weren't told there was at least a potential issue

If all else fails, make a note of the address, once the place sells, treat it as an opportunity to sell your services to fix the problem right - point out that you had informed the local AHJ's and the previous owner, and would be available as an "expert witness" if the new owner would like to have the previous owner and or Real Estate agent subsidize the repair costs.

Gooserider

 

[elkimmeg]

Shane you have the pictures take a monent and jot down who you spoke to and basically what you or they said then put it in your files
This is just in case words are put in your mouth sometime in the future.

Ok the code states one flue for one chase with a 4" solid masonry wyth separation of flues and appliances. Damaging another appliance to get yours in is could come under the codes as workmanship since only one appliance per flue and it beind separated as previously described the second one should not be there then there is the separation distance and terimation heights to deal with In no way is an outside air feed allowed to terminate in a flue. Looking at the brick work there is enough evidence that the motar has deteriorated that the entire top should be removed and rebuilt. Believe me you are better off not dealing with these people. I know how it is to be the bad guy. Many times when I fail an inspection, I become the bad guy

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

Sorry guys, these wernt pro's.

Shane, thats just, what can you say.... SILLY.

Speaking of botch jobs.....
I had a call last week reguarding a family that has been sick. The customer hired a "pro" to retro his fireplace to a gas log fireplace. Sounds simple enough right? Well apparently not. The installer gutted the fireplace, which could be fine except it was a B-Vent gas fireplace. He took out the "crappy" logs and burner, and valve. The installer installed a brand new log set... one that is about 100k BTU's and desingned for a wood burning fireplace. That family is lucky they even woke up from that ordeal. My install company woulnd not touch it for two reasons, no permit was ever pulled, and they didnt even want a pinky finger in the liability pot.

 

[webbie]

When I was a carpenter we had a standing joke about all of ours (and others) botch jobs - it can be summed up in one word - CAULK.

Yes, we'd be called in to fix up an old apartment and the windowsills would be basically sawdust - but the owner would not want to replace them - CAULK. In fact, just about any situation can be fixed by using more caulk.

This is in contrast to my father, an admitted non-mechanic, who truly believes that only one compound is needed to cure all the possible technical problems in the universe - WD-40.

 

[laynes69]

Yeah its amazing how much caulk can be in a home. Its like duct-tape, a cure all. Thats just one poor job they did, or attempted at that.

 

[kevinmoelk]

When I was a carpenter we had a standing joke about all of ours (and others) botch jobs - it can be summed up in one word - CAULK.

Yes, we'd be called in to fix up an old apartment and the windowsills would be basically sawdust - but the owner would not want to replace them - CAULK. In fact, just about any situation can be fixed by using more caulk.

This is in contrast to my father, an admitted non-mechanic, who truly believes that only one compound is needed to cure all the possible technical problems in the universe - WD-40.

I fired a guy once after about 3 jobs and having to go back over to the customers homes to fix his "caulk" jobs. He had the skills, but not the patience to do good quality work. One of those guys who always thought he had to work really fast.

In any case, as others have alluded to, the problem may indeed be with the homeowner. Sounds like the ball is in their court, they have all the information, and they can either choose to fix it properly or not. I'd take Elks? suggestion and document everything, then walk away.

-Kevin

 

[Hogwildz]

When I was a carpenter we had a standing joke about all of ours (and others) botch jobs - it can be summed up in one word - CAULK.

Yes, we'd be called in to fix up an old apartment and the windowsills would be basically sawdust - but the owner would not want to replace them - CAULK. In fact, just about any situation can be fixed by using more caulk.

This is in contrast to my father, an admitted non-mechanic, who truly believes that only one compound is needed to cure all the possible technical problems in the universe - WD-40.

Too f'in funny!
Sounds like the motto for a crew at the old roofing company I worked for.
"We do it nice, but we do it twice".

And an old g/f's fathers fixall was as he put it :Gooky" broken drawer, get a lil gooky.
Window loose, add some gooky.
Knob fall of the door, fixer up with some gooky.

 

[DavidV]

I wonder if the caulk was applied before or after the "crack" break. I'd like to know how much that woman paid for this job.

 

[Shane]

We did the inspection for the buying party. The real downside is that since the AHJ is the trusted non-biased party, kind of the "mediator" if you will, his opinion is what both the buyer and the seller are taking as fact. The realtor on the buyers side is upset, she has dealt with us for 10+ years, she knows we're not scammers. Actually we've been doing this song & dance with this particular stove company for 15 years. I'll post some more pics of quality work. The stories are endless and apparently so are his pockets and connections.

As for cost of the job. I know he charged her a min. of $450.00 for labor + parts. That's his going rate.

 

[Shane]

Here's another that we did recently. This is an open masonry fireplace. Again a real estate inspection. This time the "other" company did the initial inspection. He said that the flue tile extending from the chimney has to be removed because it is cracked, more than likely due to a chimney fire. He said that it may only be the top flue tile that is cracked and that they would come to replace it and when they came to replace it they would clean the chimney to see if the rest of the tiles were cracked. If they were they would then install a wood insert and line the chimney to the tune of 5k. Now the kicker. The original flue tile extension repair job was performed by the very guy that is now saying it is wrong! The flue tile was cracked when he drilled holes in it to put the metal plates on. Further than that a quick glance down the chimney and not only does it not need cleaned (you can still see the orange terra cotta) but there isn't any noticeable cracks or any damage, not even an inkling.

http://w3.tribcsp.com/~aahcinc/100_0920.jpg
http://w3.tribcsp.com/~aahcinc/100_0921.jpg
http://w3.tribcsp.com/~aahcinc/100_0922.jpg

A quick note to the NFI. THIS PERSON ADVERTISES AS BEING NFI CERTIFIED!! CLEAN UP YOUR REQUIREMENTS!! IF PEOPLE ARE INSTALLING LIKE THIS AND ADVERTISING AS CERTIFIED BY YOUR AGENCY WHAT KIND OF CONSUMER CONFIDENCE DOES THAT BUILD!!???

As I've said before this particular company has pockets and connections that run deeper than I could have ever imagined. You don't blow a cabin up and stay in business. I mean the stove company that made the stove he installed still does business with him to this day. Apparently he sells enough product and since they're self insured they feel it's worth the risk.

I'll start digging out all of my pictures. After seeing some of this crap I'll guarantee no one on this board would be interested in buying a home next door to one he's worked on.

 

[elkimmeg]

Love the flashing job on that chimney I'm real impressed the caps on the ridge were face nailed? Are there any craftsmen anywhere in your area?

So much for caly liners extending 2" above the cap NFPA 211 Never mind cracked clay ones bolted on? Nice

 

[KarynAnne]

And an old g/f's fathers fixall was as he put it :Gooky" broken drawer, get a lil gooky.
Window loose, add some gooky.
Knob fall of the door, fixer up with some gooky.

Hey Now there's a new word for me!! Hogwildz - I'm gonna hijack "gooky", but since I'm a girl it'll have to be "gookie". Haha.