We have a rj parlor stove made in tiwian and we arent sure how to install it and could use some help i hears its kinda like a hearth that we want but yea...here is a picture of one i like and what i would like to do but i cant use brick cuz my floor wouldent support it (we have a crawl space) also i was told you cant paint them but i see them painted all the time so yea
What do you put under a stove
- Thread starter Gorgeous
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Hi gorgeous. Drop dead handsome here. Post a pic of the stove and your proposed hearth so we can see what you are dealing with.
MrGriz
New Member
Hate to be the one to bring the bad news, but I don't think you can legally install that stove in any way. I'm pretty sure that stove is not tested and listed. I'm sure some of the experts will chime in here and let us know if I'm on the right track.
Welcome to hearth.com, glad you're here asking questions before you get yourself into a dangerous or deadly situation.
Welcome to hearth.com, glad you're here asking questions before you get yourself into a dangerous or deadly situation.
well i dont know what a hearth is lol im geussing it goes under the stove i want it to look like the pic i poseted in the first post i will try to get some pics of the stove itself posted later today and why would it be illigal and how do i find out if thats the case? i cant find any info on it at all this is the only place i have found anything on it and there is one ppost of a lady that has the same one and cant find anything either also i did find a stove that looks kinda like it but there not the same
How can I put this to you kindly? You want to install a stove that you know absolutely nothing about? You have no idea whether it is safe to install or safe to opperate?
No idea of if its refractory joints are any good whether its castings are of sound condition and you are worried about a hearth? Mr griff had it right.
No unlisted stove can be permitted or installed In USA or Canada So the first thing you have to research is the attached lable probably on the back of the stove
If you cannot find one. It cannot be legally installed in USA. No permits should be issued. Before you worry about the floor. I think its time to learn about the stove and its condition
It's a lot more pleasent to find out now ,then after the fire dept shows up and you are negotiating with your insurance co,, trying to convince them to cover the damage, for an ilegal installation un permited ans un inspected. Really for $200 for a piece ot tiawaniese junk that is a poluting beast probably unsafe to opperate , better some tell you now
Believe me you do not want to be in that position. When all is asid and done, you are banking you safety on a 40 year old piece of junk, that was junk day it was sold,
of unknow condition? Time to rethink. We here can help you on a much safer more productive path.
I have always wonder, what the thought process is, buying something unknown condition, that could end up kiling you? Even worse purchasing it then asking questions about what you have bought with, and no idea to what you bought/ The questions should come first.
No idea of if its refractory joints are any good whether its castings are of sound condition and you are worried about a hearth? Mr griff had it right.
No unlisted stove can be permitted or installed In USA or Canada So the first thing you have to research is the attached lable probably on the back of the stove
If you cannot find one. It cannot be legally installed in USA. No permits should be issued. Before you worry about the floor. I think its time to learn about the stove and its condition
It's a lot more pleasent to find out now ,then after the fire dept shows up and you are negotiating with your insurance co,, trying to convince them to cover the damage, for an ilegal installation un permited ans un inspected. Really for $200 for a piece ot tiawaniese junk that is a poluting beast probably unsafe to opperate , better some tell you now
Believe me you do not want to be in that position. When all is asid and done, you are banking you safety on a 40 year old piece of junk, that was junk day it was sold,
of unknow condition? Time to rethink. We here can help you on a much safer more productive path.
I have always wonder, what the thought process is, buying something unknown condition, that could end up kiling you? Even worse purchasing it then asking questions about what you have bought with, and no idea to what you bought/ The questions should come first.
Gee let me try to put this kindly...your being an idiot...the reason I am here is because I AM DOING RESEARCH BEFORE I INSTALL IT i do have some help from my uncle who does know about them we bought it for $50 so we dident waste money on it at all the condition is pretty good if you ask me...yes i am a girl so i may not know a whole lot about it but you dont need to be rude i am here to ask questions and get nice answers if you cant be nice please dont post on my subject im not going to install something thats not safe why do you think im hear i couldent find any info on it so i wanted to try to befor we put a hole in our roof no need to be rude to me now if you have a nice response you may post on my subject if not have a nice day i dont mean to be rude but i dont like when people are ignorant and be mean for fun i am here for info on it
webbie
Seasoned Moderator
The stove aside - I won't add to Elks post except to say that most people would not use an old Taiwan stove like that....look to see if the label or manual has test information - for instance, back in that time it would probably say ICBO or something like that.
Most of these stoves were sold by home centers or even places like Penneys and Montgomery ward. They are usually not up the safety or efficiency standards of today.
That said - you are looking for information on floor and wall protection - and you are correct that the proper term is Hearth....or, of course, floor protection.
Start with this article and some other in the info section:
https://www.hearth.com/articles/63_0_1_0_M1.html
Also search around in the Q and A.
If we assume that the stove is not listed, it is typical that a local inspector will either not allow it's installation OR require that the installation meet "generic" specs from the NFPA (see article). These generic specs call for a certain amount of protection based on how tall the legs are - because heat from the stove travels down based on this.
It is very possible that a crawl space CAN support a single layer of brick.....in terms of weight - since it is spread out. This is especially true if you are right up against the outside wall or a support beam in underneath - again, something for a pro or person of experience to determine.
Another generic floor protection scheme that would work with a lot of stoves is.
1. Put a sheet of 24 ga sheet metal on the floor
2. Install at least 3 thicknesses of wonderboard or durarock (cement boad) on this, and face it with ceramic tile or slate.
(use screws and possible also some adhesive or thin set to fasten to each other and floor).
Again, if you are unable to find any info on the listing of the stove or a manual, etc - you might want to think twice about installing it. It can still be used for decoration, etc. - my cousin has a few stoves like this in her house with electric logs in them.
Most of these stoves were sold by home centers or even places like Penneys and Montgomery ward. They are usually not up the safety or efficiency standards of today.
That said - you are looking for information on floor and wall protection - and you are correct that the proper term is Hearth....or, of course, floor protection.
Start with this article and some other in the info section:
https://www.hearth.com/articles/63_0_1_0_M1.html
Also search around in the Q and A.
If we assume that the stove is not listed, it is typical that a local inspector will either not allow it's installation OR require that the installation meet "generic" specs from the NFPA (see article). These generic specs call for a certain amount of protection based on how tall the legs are - because heat from the stove travels down based on this.
It is very possible that a crawl space CAN support a single layer of brick.....in terms of weight - since it is spread out. This is especially true if you are right up against the outside wall or a support beam in underneath - again, something for a pro or person of experience to determine.
Another generic floor protection scheme that would work with a lot of stoves is.
1. Put a sheet of 24 ga sheet metal on the floor
2. Install at least 3 thicknesses of wonderboard or durarock (cement boad) on this, and face it with ceramic tile or slate.
(use screws and possible also some adhesive or thin set to fasten to each other and floor).
Again, if you are unable to find any info on the listing of the stove or a manual, etc - you might want to think twice about installing it. It can still be used for decoration, etc. - my cousin has a few stoves like this in her house with electric logs in them.
thank you web master for being nice however i dont think you guys understand my ? the problom is there is no manual or instructions we got the stove and chimny stuff thats why im here i want to know more about it if its safe and if its not safe how to make it safe i was hopeing to find friendly people that could help me make it safe...if not what should we do with it?
northwinds
Minister of Fire
Gorgeous said:
To the contrary, I think your question is clear. So are the answers. What we have here is the failure to communicate.
no the answers arent clear all they say is its un safe and not up to code but no one can tell me what to do i want to know if it can be made to be safe and if they could tell me why its not safe insted of people helping me that are saying i am stupid and shouldent have one at all i think thats rude i need to know ow to make it safe and how to get it up to code if yall cant help me ill find someone who can please dont waste your time or mine by posting any more stuff unless your going to help me make it safe and up to code
Michael6268
Minister of Fire
I think Craig (webamaster) was very helpful with the info posted. As far as the stove being safe or not, no one can answer that here without seeing it. As far as it being legal to install, if its not EPA certed, its probabley not going to be ok'd for installation by a inspector. If you are thinking of bypassing ispections, then you would definetly want to make sure its listed by a noted testiing agency as Craig noted. You have to think of it like- is it safe to burn a 55 gall oil drum stove in your home. Probably once, twice even a handful of times, but sooner or later your luck will run out. Re-read Craigs post. I think you will find a lot more info in it than you origianlly thought.
Hi there and welcome. Sadly, there's nothing we can do here to change the stove's quality or safety. But perhaps you really just want the stove for decorative use? If so, it should be fine. As to helping with getting a good hearth in or helping set up the flue pipe safely, that we can do now.
There are 3 components here:
The hearth which is the base that the stove sits on. the construction design of the hearth is dictated by the stove design. Some stoves need a very minimal non-combustible surface and others need all the hearth they can get. With an unlisted stove the hearth must be built to the maximum code protection. As the webmaster noted, your floor should easily support a layer of brick because the weight is spread out. but a veneer of brick probably will not fit safety requirements for RJ parlor stove. There will need to be an insulation barrier to stop the transfer of heat from the bottom of the stove to the wood floor under the hearth.
The stove is the engine of the system. Unfortunately the stove you have is neither UL approved or particularly well built. If you are going to use it a few times a year, then, with caveats, it will work. But with the roaring heat of a strong fire, you don't want to be worrying about casting failure, air leaks, and poor design leading to an uncontrollable stove. That is why the caveats.
The chimney (aka flue or stack) is equally as important as the stove. Particular care needs to paid to clearances, sizing, length, material, support and location of the flue. The flue must be well designed and safe to tolerate the high temperatures of combustion. There are no shortcuts here, though there are alternatives depending on the house layout and location of the flue.
As a gentle recommendation, if it were my home, I would sell the stove and get a decent one to start with. It will increase your saftey an confidence. If you go this route, we can help somewhat if you would like. The best place to start would be detailing the size of the room it's in, how large the house is, what is the town or region, how well insulated the house is, and what the budget is. There are a lot of good used and some very reasonably priced new stoves on the market, but we'll need a little more information about your goals and budget first. Hope that helps. If you have specific questions, fire away.
There are 3 components here:
The hearth which is the base that the stove sits on. the construction design of the hearth is dictated by the stove design. Some stoves need a very minimal non-combustible surface and others need all the hearth they can get. With an unlisted stove the hearth must be built to the maximum code protection. As the webmaster noted, your floor should easily support a layer of brick because the weight is spread out. but a veneer of brick probably will not fit safety requirements for RJ parlor stove. There will need to be an insulation barrier to stop the transfer of heat from the bottom of the stove to the wood floor under the hearth.
The stove is the engine of the system. Unfortunately the stove you have is neither UL approved or particularly well built. If you are going to use it a few times a year, then, with caveats, it will work. But with the roaring heat of a strong fire, you don't want to be worrying about casting failure, air leaks, and poor design leading to an uncontrollable stove. That is why the caveats.
The chimney (aka flue or stack) is equally as important as the stove. Particular care needs to paid to clearances, sizing, length, material, support and location of the flue. The flue must be well designed and safe to tolerate the high temperatures of combustion. There are no shortcuts here, though there are alternatives depending on the house layout and location of the flue.
As a gentle recommendation, if it were my home, I would sell the stove and get a decent one to start with. It will increase your saftey an confidence. If you go this route, we can help somewhat if you would like. The best place to start would be detailing the size of the room it's in, how large the house is, what is the town or region, how well insulated the house is, and what the budget is. There are a lot of good used and some very reasonably priced new stoves on the market, but we'll need a little more information about your goals and budget first. Hope that helps. If you have specific questions, fire away.
Gorgeous said:
No one is calling you stupid and shouldnt have a stove. We are just saying the stove you have isnt up to code.
Current Codes require EPA approved stoves. And this approval is done by the manufactuer. there is no way for you to bring this stove into EPA compliance. In many jurusdictions stoves not having a EPA Cert cannot be permited, even if installed with generic clearances.
The stove may be safe but by todays standards it isnt. and theres really nothing you can do about that. You could perhaps rebuild it to make it safe but it still wouldnt have an EPA cert. Installed without a permit is going to void your insurance. And its going to be a Wood Eater, you will probably burn twice the amount of wood in it as a modern stove.
I hope this doesnt sound rude or mean, just trying to be informative. Perhaps looking at current stoves in the lower end price range is the best bet
webbie
Seasoned Moderator
What type of chimney stuff did you get? Is it new?
It is almost impossible to re-use old class A (metal) chimneys for a number of reasons - first because you cannot usually find the proper missing parts. Also, if this chimney is from the same time period as the stove, then it is near the end of its useful life.
Lastly, the chimney standard has changed and a very old metal chimney may be less safe than a newer one...
just checking....
It is almost impossible to re-use old class A (metal) chimneys for a number of reasons - first because you cannot usually find the proper missing parts. Also, if this chimney is from the same time period as the stove, then it is near the end of its useful life.
Lastly, the chimney standard has changed and a very old metal chimney may be less safe than a newer one...
just checking....
BeGreen said:
I would like to thank you for your help we would like to get a stove to heat our house our house is about 1000sqft the room we plan to put it in is our living room it is about 300sqft and i want it rased off the main floor of our room like maybe off the floor 3in or so we will look into selling it and maybe buying a new one we no more money to spend lol as we had no money in the first place we got the stove hoping to install it and save on our very high heating bill if we can not sell this one we wont beable to buy a new one...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v253/chetney/100_0331.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v253/chetney/100_0332.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v253/chetney/100_0333.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v253/chetney/100_0334.jpg
webbie
Seasoned Moderator
Gorgeous said:
Please keep in mind that any fire in any stove can be unsafe. Older stoves like yours have a higher percentage of chance of being unsafe - in other words, it is not "fail safe" like newer models. Consider it like a car - you can buy an old car without air bags or other crash protection....even really old without seat belts. There is really no way of bringing those cars up to modern standards.
I think you have to break this down into steps.
1. The hearth - I think we did answer this question.
2. The chimney - we don't have enough info since we have no idea what kind of chimney you are considering
3. The stove - most opinions here are that it is questionable and would not be the kind of stove that these people and their families would use in their own house. Also, what they are saying is that there really is no way you can make it so.
Safety is always a matter of degree. With a good chimney and a good hearth and a good operator, that stove could be safe. But we would rather see you travel with air bags and seat belts.
all i know is the person we got it from had it in there barn beacuse they dident like it but they used it when they moved in and the person that lived there befor them used it every day she passed away so i cant ask for the stuff but for now all i have is in the pic tures and the chimney looks brand new i will try to find a pic of it what i want is to be able to heat my house if yall can help me in my price range great let me tell you a little about me 1st off i am 18 my bf is 21 we are new at this house thing we had a friend that sold us this from his friend he knew the lady who had it befor us and she used it everyday it was in her trailer...we have a house we are here for help cuz we dont know about it i was here to find someone who had the same stove and maybe had a manuel for it if i cant find a manuel i want to know what to do with it to make it work now with all the postes it sounds like yall are sayin it cant be fixed up and used witch is what we really want if not tho how much do they usuly sell for
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b274/rangerdave/stove/100_0353.jpg this is the pic of the chimney still on there roof from when they used it
This is the stove i really want but its way out of my price range of $0 dollars haha
http://www.realpagessites.com/firehousecasual/images/2b.jpg
http://www.realpagessites.com/firehousecasual/images/2b.jpg
i dont know are you an ass hole? im not sure why some people find it fun to pick on me im here for help i received some help but mostly people being rude i dont think that my hair color has anything to do with my question and i dont think you should post if your not going to help i already admited that i dont know anything about it i mean why eles would i be here askeing questions? i am here for help to any one eles who may want to be rude to me i dont like rude people i dont think you are being nice bob...i am yonung and tryin to get some guidence on this any one else with rude comments please keep them to your self if you all are trying to help well thats great thats why im here i posted the pics to give yall a better idea about what i have
Xena
Minister of Fire
This young couple sounds like good candidates
for one of the donor stove installs that have
been organized through this forum.
for one of the donor stove installs that have
been organized through this forum.
You tell him honey.
OK. well, the stove appears to have seen it's day. If you can get what you paid for it, great. On a low budget, you won't get a stove like the Vermont Castings one you posted the picture of, but you do have good taste in stoves. However, for under $500 there are often decent used stoves and at this time of the year even some new ones go for under $3-400. If you buy new, look at Englander stoves. Not the prettiest, but they do work well and are very fairly priced. Your house is not too big so it should be easy to heat.
What will your source of wood be? What are your oil bills now? Just a thought, the place isn't that big, so perhaps it might be less expensive to figure out whty the oil bills are high. It could be there's is something wrong with the burner or the ductwork.
I admire your spirit, but installing a stove does require some skill. The hearth is a relatively easy project, installing a flue from scratch is not. If you're set on getting a stove, what have you budgeted for this project? How handy are you and your BF at carpentry, tile work? There will be some demolition required to install the flue and it has to be done right. Do you have the tools to tackle this project or friends that are capable and willing to help? Also, do you own or rent this house?
Last, where do you live? (Just the area, we don't need the address). Maybe someone on the forum lives close enough to mentor you and check for safety, etc. A trained eye makes all the difference here. And be patient. You did the right thing by coming to the forum and asking questions. We may ask tough questions, but it's ultimately your safety and well being we have in mind.
OK. well, the stove appears to have seen it's day. If you can get what you paid for it, great. On a low budget, you won't get a stove like the Vermont Castings one you posted the picture of, but you do have good taste in stoves.
However, for under $500 there are often decent used stoves and at this time of the year even some new ones go for under $3-400. If you buy new, look at Englander stoves. Not the prettiest, but they do work well and are very fairly priced. Your house is not too big so it should be easy to heat. What will your source of wood be? What are your oil bills now? Just a thought, the place isn't that big, so perhaps it might be less expensive to figure out whty the oil bills are high. It could be there's is something wrong with the burner or the ductwork.
I admire your spirit, but installing a stove does require some skill. The hearth is a relatively easy project, installing a flue from scratch is not. If you're set on getting a stove, what have you budgeted for this project? How handy are you and your BF at carpentry, tile work? There will be some demolition required to install the flue and it has to be done right. Do you have the tools to tackle this project or friends that are capable and willing to help? Also, do you own or rent this house?
Last, where do you live? (Just the area, we don't need the address). Maybe someone on the forum lives close enough to mentor you and check for safety, etc. A trained eye makes all the difference here. And be patient. You did the right thing by coming to the forum and asking questions. We may ask tough questions, but it's ultimately your safety and well being we have in mind.
well lol 1st off i really like Zeta idea haha and 2nd begreen the reason we bought the $50 dollar one is cuz thats about all we have ...i am selling a stove right now its listed at 300 and we said anything we get from the stove gos toward this project...so somewhere around 350 is what we have our heating bill inculdes all our appliances really our stove and furnace..our furnace is old but it works great...my uncle and step dad own a heating and cooling company so thats not the problom...i can tell you the problom i like my heat at 75 i like to walk around in my birthday suit and not be cold...lol (blinds shut of corse) we do alot of laundry.. and cook every day all day (you would think i was greek with how much i cook) and we take hot baths alot to this all may have something to do with it... i dont want an ulgy stove...its going to be in my living room where everyone can see its not the brand i like its the color and set up...right now we owe 800 or so on our consumers...we have had 3 to 4 shut off notices as i am still learning how to budget a house and all the bills ...my bf has no job and i am working my hardest just to pay the house off we own it ...we live in flint Mi and in the pics i posted the stove is sitting where i want to put it...
Good to hear that you have relatives in the heating business. They may be able to help with the flue installation. The reason I asked all the questions is that a decent used stove + flue installation is likely to cost you about $1000. If your uncle can get the flue pipe at cost and install it for you, then it could come down to about $600.
But there are a lot of factors that need to be considered. One is that most stoves need to be a lot further from the wall than where you placed the stove body. Some need to be at least 24" away from the nearest combustible surface. Some stoves have closer clearances, but you'll need to buy carefully or you'll be in the same situation all over again. Take some masking tape and make an outline of the size of the hearth in the corner. Without knowing the stove, I can't specify the exact size to start with, but make the two wall sides 54" long, then come at right angles into the room 36" from each side, then connect those two pieces. That will give you an idea of what a stove with good close clearances really needs. The Vermont Castings stove you like needs very generous clearances. If you want a used cast iron stove that has closer clearances, look for a Jotul. In your size place it would probably be a Jotul Model 3 or 8.
In your budget range, most likely you are going to find a used steel box stove for $2-300. Although you like the cast iron stove look, a good one brings a decent price in the used market. Usually $500 and up. They're out there, but you'll have to be patient and know what will work for you in advance. Flint is not that big a market. In our area I could probably find a decent stove in a few weeks, but it may take you a bit longer in your area.
But there are a lot of factors that need to be considered. One is that most stoves need to be a lot further from the wall than where you placed the stove body. Some need to be at least 24" away from the nearest combustible surface. Some stoves have closer clearances, but you'll need to buy carefully or you'll be in the same situation all over again. Take some masking tape and make an outline of the size of the hearth in the corner. Without knowing the stove, I can't specify the exact size to start with, but make the two wall sides 54" long, then come at right angles into the room 36" from each side, then connect those two pieces. That will give you an idea of what a stove with good close clearances really needs. The Vermont Castings stove you like needs very generous clearances. If you want a used cast iron stove that has closer clearances, look for a Jotul. In your size place it would probably be a Jotul Model 3 or 8.
In your budget range, most likely you are going to find a used steel box stove for $2-300. Although you like the cast iron stove look, a good one brings a decent price in the used market. Usually $500 and up. They're out there, but you'll have to be patient and know what will work for you in advance. Flint is not that big a market. In our area I could probably find a decent stove in a few weeks, but it may take you a bit longer in your area.
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