What trees to plant for future firewood.

[tradergordo]

I guess to each his own? But WOW, I could not disagree with you more. To me poplar is one of the worst woods for burning, you can't get an overnight burn with it (low btu), so its just kind of annoying. But it certainly grows fast. I've burned a lot of yellow poplar because these trees are usually the first to fall over in a stiff breeze

The 2-3 years for drying black locust is bogus. I hear people say 2-3 years about a lot of different woods including oak, but I think its bogus every time I hear it. I've burned black locust (as well as oak, walnut, and others) with a normal 9-12 month seasoning and it is perfect. I don't know how people come up with these silly ideas, perhaps they just don't know how to season wood, or perhaps they live in a coastal climate that has year round high humidity and rainfall making wood seasoning very difficult.

As for a big coal bed - again I could not disagree with you more. I see it the exact opposite of you, but maybe its because of the type of stove I own. A big coal bed is "wood burner heaven" for me, it ensures easy continuous secondary burn and big heat. Ideally I don't want to see any flame at all in my stove, just massive heat. Black locust is better at achieving this than any other wood.

snydley were almost neighbors so imo you want to think poplar...sure locust is a harder wood but they spread out, don't grow as fast as poplar and the thorns will give your tractors flats so F 'em...I cut 'em down down as an evasive species. Sure they smell good when there in season but if you have to season them for 2 years before burning it's becomes a big goat screw in your operation.

Sure they burn forever but they also they leave tons of coals...I'm telling ya brother it's fire that produces usable heat not coals. Now if your away for 12 hours at a time Locust will serve it purpose ...mostly cause your not they to absorb the heat when it 10 below. Off an on I've cut and burned locust since '77 and I swear to God without any hesitation, reservation or secret evasion of mind there's no bigger pain in the ass wood if it's constant even heat you desire.

I'd rather burn punky wood than prime seasoned Locust...and that's that.

 

[smokinj]

I guess to each his own? But WOW, I could not disagree with you more. To me poplar is one of the worst woods for burning, you can't get an overnight burn with it (low btu), so its just kind of annoying. But it certainly grows fast. I've burned a lot of yellow poplar because these trees are usually the first to fall over in a stiff breeze

The 2-3 years for drying black locust is bogus. I hear people say 2-3 years about a lot of different woods including oak, but I think its bogus every time I hear it. I've burned black locust (as well as oak, walnut, and others) with a normal 9-12 month seasoning and it is perfect. I don't know how people come up with these silly ideas, perhaps they just don't know how to season wood, or perhaps they live in a coastal climate that has year round high humidity and rainfall making wood seasoning very difficult.

As for a big coal bed - again I could not disagree with you more. I see it the exact opposite of you, but maybe its because of the type of stove I own. A big coal bed is "wood burner heaven" for me, it ensures easy continuous secondary burn and big heat. Ideally I don't want to see any flame at all in my stove, just massive heat. Black locust is better at achieving this than any other wood.

snydley were almost neighbors so imo you want to think poplar...sure locust is a harder wood but they spread out, don't grow as fast as poplar and the thorns will give your tractors flats so F 'em...I cut 'em down down as an evasive species. Sure they smell good when there in season but if you have to season them for 2 years before burning it's becomes a big goat screw in your operation.

Sure they burn forever but they also they leave tons of coals...I'm telling ya brother it's fire that produces usable heat not coals. Now if your away for 12 hours at a time Locust will serve it purpose ...mostly cause your not they to absorb the heat when it 10 below. Off an on I've cut and burned locust since '77 and I swear to God without any hesitation, reservation or secret evasion of mind there's no bigger pain in the ass wood if it's constant even heat you desire.

I'd rather burn punky wood than prime seasoned Locust...and that's that.

not to throw you off track but have you ever burned hedge apple?(Osage Orange)

 

[Henz]

tradergordo, I agree with you on everything expect for the locust giving you coals. But that might be a difference between the kinds of locust. I ahve burned honey locust before, still have some, burns hot and suprisengly long, but very little coals

 

[Adios Pantalones]

Sure they burn forever but they also they leave tons of coals...I'm telling ya brother it's fire that produces usable heat not coals. Now if your away for 12 hours at a time Locust will serve it purpose ...mostly cause your not they to absorb the heat when it 10 below. Off an on I've cut and burned locust since '77 and I swear to God without any hesitation, reservation or secret evasion of mind there's no bigger pain in the ass wood if it's constant even heat you desire.

I'd rather burn punky wood than prime seasoned Locust...and that's that.

Locust gives more heat per load than poplar by a LONG way. That is proven fact. Those coals burn longer by a long shot as well. Poplar and lighter woods give all their heat at once- but a load of locust will do far more.


Osage is a cousin of locust. The densest wood native to the US, with the highest heating value, but doesn't grow great in parts of the north (I have planted a few in MA and NH). It's also more rot resistant and stronger for whatit's worth.

 

[smokinj]

Sure they burn forever but they also they leave tons of coals...I'm telling ya brother it's fire that produces usable heat not coals. Now if your away for 12 hours at a time Locust will serve it purpose ...mostly cause your not they to absorb the heat when it 10 below. Off an on I've cut and burned locust since '77 and I swear to God without any hesitation, reservation or secret evasion of mind there's no bigger pain in the ass wood if it's constant even heat you desire.

I'd rather burn punky wood than prime seasoned Locust...and that's that.

Locust gives more heat per load than poplar by a LONG way. That is proven fact. Those coals burn longer by a long shot as well. Poplar and lighter woods give all their heat at once- but a load of locust will do far more.


Osage is a cousin of locust. The densest wood native to the US, with the highest heating value, but doesn't grow great in parts of the north (I have planted a few in MA and NH). It's also more rot resistant and stronger for whatit's worth.

I have 10 pick up loads of it (HEDGE APPLE)ready for january if locust is anywhere close to it, give me some!

 

[caber]

I can vouch for the speed at which poplar grows. They get big fast. Cut easy and dry fast. However, you will never get an overnite burn with them. Poplar burns easy and very fast. Great wood for quick, hot fires.

 

[JBinKC]

I am siding with savage here. Perhaps the varied views here is a function on how much insulation your house has but I also find locust and hedge are really one dimensional that I wouldn't want to exclusively rely upon.

Both woods are much higher btu per area but lb/lb all wood has the same number of btus.

In my experience I find locust and hedge are fine woods to use for an extended long overnight burns in average weather in the Ozarks. (20-30 degree lows)

However, in really cold weather both hedge and locust tends to overcoal and when your stove is in the coaling stage it provides much less heat than flames in the secondaries. I would rather heat with poplar more constantly with a little bit of moderate coaling wood like elm or soft maple to keep it going as the volume of the wood converts to more easily removed ash.

 

[glacialhills]

In my experience I find locust and hedge are fine woods to use for an extended long overnight burns in average weather in the Ozarks. (20-30 degree lows)

However, in really cold weather both hedge and locust tends to overcoal and when your stove is in the coaling stage it provides much less heat than flames in the secondaries. I would rather heat with poplar more constantly with a little bit of moderate coaling wood like elm or soft maple to keep it going as the volume of the wood converts to more easily removed ash.

I think this is the difference in preference in wood to burn. 20-30 degree lows here in Michigan is balmy and hardly worth firing the stove for at all. I wouldn't want to burn locust or oak or any other "real" hardwood when it is that warm either. But when the {{{HIGH}}} temp. for the next 2 months is 10 degrees or less and the lows,....well we wont even go there right now. That locust is gonna feel real nice. I would need to be loading the furnace every two hours with poplar to keep the house the temp the wife prefers. and heaven forbid I fall asleep, cause I would wake up to a snow cave. All wood has the same btus per pound but how those btus are released makes all the difference. Poplar is fine do do a quick fire to take the chill off in the fall or spring but it is so light (is the word for opposite of dense, correct?) that I would need to pack my firebox tight to get even half the btus in there that a half load of locust(or other "real" hardwood) contains. its not a slam against poplar its just the law of Physics.

Now, the original post was what Hardwood to grow for firewood on 2.5 acres. I guess you need to also state what latitude you will be to burn them cause at least around here you would need to burn an acre of 4-6" poplar each winter to keep warm.

 

[savageactor7]

Well I'm willing to concede Locust is the harder wood but sidney wants a fast growing renewable tree in his 3 acres and poplar will do that better than locust.

OK so poplar wont last all night ....at least when you get up there's an empty space in your stove you can shove more poplar in without dicking with a 6in coal bed. While poplar is known to be a fast burning wood in older stoves anyone thats burned it in an EPA stove will testify to its longer burn life. Come on...we're not burning in our daddies stove anymore.

Weird that I find myself defending poplar since I cut the saplings as a nuisance.LOL

 

[tradergordo]

tradergordo, I agree with you on everything expect for the locust giving you coals. But that might be a difference between the kinds of locust. I have burned honey locust before, still have some, burns hot and surprisingly long, but very little coals

Honey locust is a different species, but also a high BTU wood. I have never burned it personally so I wouldn't know. Osage is the "ultimate", highest BTU wood there is, but it doesn't grow around me, so I've never burned it and don't really know what its like.

Its interesting to hear the different perspectives. The explanation about your average low temps probably makes a lot of sense. I'm in SE Pennsylvania, my average low temperature in Jan/Feb is around 20F (with record low around -20). To some of you northerners, that isn't very cold. And as I said before, it also probably depends on your stove. I have an everburn stove, if you aren't familiar with the design, it sucks all of the smoke and gasses basically down THROUGH the coal bed and out the back bottom of the stove where they are burned in a secondary combustion area. If you have a large hot long lasting coal bed, you can throw ANYTHING on top and get a fantastic burn with big heat and full secondary combustion. Black locust is great for establishing a coal bed like that. Then I can throw any species on after that (something dense will give you a nice super long slower burn, or something like yellow poplar will give you a hot fast burn). You guys with burn tubes on top probably don't see as big a benefit to having a big long lasting coal bed.

 

[FireWalker]

95% of my wood this winter is honey locust, it sounds as though it will take some getting used to. Worst part sounds as though I may have to kindle more fires this year as I usually burn primarily oak. The soapstone will be an advantage.

 

[sgcsalsero]

Check with your city arborist if you have one on what varieties grow best in your soil. I think there is a decent book called 'The Woodlot Management Handbook' that I remember from a previous post. I haven't heard anything but good things about black locust, anything labeled as potentially invasive http://www.invasive.org/browse/subject.cfm?sub=3350 probably is darn hearty so that is a plus. I am getting ready to burn two cords of honey locust processed last year, it smelled wonderful when bucking/splitting. There are a ton of honey locusts in my neighborhood so if I had a couple acres that's something I'd probably be getting.

Btw, I didn't see anyone doing a cost analysis on this, where are you going to get seedlings and how much do want to pay . .a few hundred trees sounds like a decent investment, assuming there are wholesalers that sell seedlings by the 100 (bunched together and shipped early springish)

Update: maybe check out if NY has something like this http://ohiodnr.com/forestry/Home/seedling/list/tabid/5323/Default.aspx, wow .30 a seedling if you order 500 of black locust, heaps cheaper than I thought

 

[sgcsalsero]

Germinating the seeds can be tricky if you don't know how to do it, but its real easy when you do know how to do it. All you have to do is nick it with a razor blade (actually cut a small sliver of the outer casing off the seed without cutting deeply into the seed, you will see a little green under there) then microwave a small glass of water until its hot, then put the nicked seeds in it. The seeds will swell up in anywhere from 12 hours to 2 days, then you can take them out and place the seeds on a soaking wet paper towel (spread out). Roll the paper towel up like a hot dog, fold it in half, and stick one end in a bowl of water so that it can never dry out. Stick it in direct sunlight. Within a few more days they will germinate. So in a total of less than a week you will have trees growing. You can move them to pots and let them get bigger before transplanting outside, or you can take your chances and plant the seedlings directly outside. Deer will eat them if you don't do something for protection.

I think I still have viable seeds at home which I've offered people here in the past. If you want some, just PM me and either send a self addressed stamped envelope, or paypal me a buck and I'll send them to you. I'll make sure they are still good before I send them.

Gordo, where did you harvest the seeds from? Is that something I could do with Honey Locust (same family I think & btw they are the thornless version) which are a dime a dozen around here

 

[tradergordo]

Gordo, where did you harvest the seeds from? Is that something I could do with Honey Locust (same family I think & btw they are the thornless version) which are a dime a dozen around here

There's a lot of Black Locust growing around me, so I collect the seed pods from the best looking trees. Each pod can contain dozens of seeds (the seeds are tiny). I haven't been out looking for them yet this year, but they are probably ready right now. You can do the same with honey locust. The technique I described will work for almost any seed that has a hard outer casing and is normally difficult to germinate.

By the way, here is the PDF Managing Your Woodlot for Firewood from Oklahoma State University. They say: "Species in addition to black locust which should be considered in establishing fuelwood plantations include osage orange, catalpa, thornless honeylocust, cottonwood, and green ash."


Here's another link about black locust:
http://www.fao.org/docrep/n7750e/n7750e04.htm
One unexpected thing they say there is "Because of its high caloric value and its ability to burn even when wet, it is popular also as firewood." I had never heard that before, but its an interesting contrast to the folks that said it needs 2-3 years to season (which I know for a fact is not true).

 

[Adios Pantalones]

Whatever you plant- mix it up. A monoculture planting is bad from a few angles- it's not as good for the critters in general, and if you get a disease or a pest bug- there goes the whole lot!

 

[rich81]

doesn't beech grow quick? if not then i have a few on my property that went from sapling to 6 + feet in no time, there branches take up quite a bit of space and start real low

 

[sgcsalsero]

Whatever you plant- mix it up. A monoculture planting is bad from a few angles- it's not as good for the critters in general, and if you get a disease or a pest bug- there goes the whole lot!

Good point, as a tangential comparison I've been told that a bag of premium grass seed (e.g. Scotts') is intentionally mixed so that the seed with the best chance given present sun & soil conditions will take off (e.g. you overseed a shady area . . .maybe the kentucky bluegrass will do the best)

 

[sgcsalsero]

doesn't beech grow quick? if not then i have a few on my property that went from sapling to 6 + feet in no time, there branches take up quite a bit of space and start real low

Yes, do a search on Eric J with beech, I think he thins a lot of that out in stands he manages

 

[Jags]

I strive to be a multi-species burner for all the reasons that have been posted. But....for anyone that has not had the PLEASURE of burning Osage, I would send you a sample if it weren't for the fact that a 2 ft square boxful has the comparable weight of a small compact car. :lol:

It would be basically impossible to heat exclusively from a 2.5 acre sustainable plot. On average, I believe the numbers are 6/7 acres of established forest to sustain a supply of firewood for a single household (lots of variable also).

I'm with Adios - Make it a multi-species planting. It will be healthier in almost every way. Harvest what you can and get the remainder from all the other methods of firewood procurement.

 

[RedRanger]

I find it strange that you would have to plant anything at all? On my little acre+ there is a constant self-seeding going on, dozens and dozens of fir,alder, and cedar seedlings sprouting up in the forest on a continous basis. I let them grow except when they try to establish themselves in my rhodo planters and then I pull them out. But then, none of the aforementioned are hardwoods :roll:

 

[Adios Pantalones]

Sonny- I doubt they HAVE to, but if they're thinking about what they want to burn in several years- they can maximize heat per acre per year.

 

[Jags]

But then, none of the aforementioned are hardwoods :roll:

I think you may be on to something Sonny. Of the trees that try to propagate on my yard, it seems they would all be softwood trees. On the other hand I have a buddy that has a yard full of white oaks and squirrels, he seems to have no problem getting new oak trees to sprout up. Hmmm...back to the drawing board.

Maybe the weekly mowing is the problem???

 

[tradergordo]

I find it strange that you would have to plant anything at all? On my little acre+ there is a constant self-seeding going on, dozens and dozens of fir,alder, and cedar seedlings sprouting up in the forest on a continous basis. I let them grow except when they try to establish themselves in my rhodo planters and then I pull them out. But then, none of the aforementioned are hardwoods :roll:

You plant so you can get rid of the fir, alder, and cedar

 

[RedRanger]

You plant so you can get rid of the fir, alder, and cedar

But then I would be treeless as well as clueless. There are no hardwoods here :down:

 

[skinnykid]

I cut the standing dead and blow downs to open up the area and let sunlight in to make new trees.