what would you do - big hole to fill

[Maul]

So yesterday I ripped out an old slammer insert in a house I have lived in about a year. Now we have a huge hole in the wall.

Some details:

-exterior chimney
-This is in a walkout basement with one level above (2500 sq feet total in Northern MN brrrr)
-rough opening about 3 feet wide by 4 feet deep and 4 feet high
-a clay lined chimney starts around 6 feet high which has a big metal tube sticking out of it now for old insert connection
-I plan on doing masonry work to re-build the hearth and put on new veneer with whatever is chosen
-hearthpad where black linoleum sits is large so no worries about clearances or awkward walkways

My wife and I both love the Jotul F55 but are unsure about how to incorporate it, do we close off the wall with bricks and do a thimble of some sort? Build a hearth to accommodate a partial hearth-mount? I have read just about everything I can but can't seem to figure out how the chimney would work in this scenario.

What would you do?

 

[Highbeam]

Myself, I completely removed the masonry chimney and fireplace after removing the insert. Stoves are superior and insulated interior class A chimney is superior. At the least I would built a low hearth and set a stove fully outside of the fireplace and then connect the stovepipe to the existing chimney however you can, this depends on whether the new stove is a top or rear vent. Also, is your existing clay liner in good shape? If you have to line that masonry chimney with a steel liner then things just got more interesting.



2500 SF is a big house and MN is cold. You want a real stove.

 

[begreen]

The F55 is a good large stove. You could drop and insulated liner down the chimney and direct connect to the stove. Be sure it has the blower.

 

[bholler]

insulated interior class A chimney is superior.

Why would you say that a good masonry chimney lined with an insulated ss liner will last as long or longer than a class a and will preform as well. If you are starting from scratch then yeah class a is the more practical choice but if you already have a masonry chimney why not use it.

If you have to line that masonry chimney with a steel liner then things just got more interesting.

It is for a fireplace so it will need lined so the size matches but still much less work and much cheaper than demoing the whole thing and then putting in a class a.

If it really is 3' wide by 4' high you can slide pretty much whatever stove you want in there and still have plenty of room for heat to circulate well. But I would insulate the back wall well and do a good insulated block off plate angled to direct the heat out of the box and into the room.

 

[Highbeam]

if you already have a masonry chimney why not use it.

You can but you will have an inferior setup. Masonry cracks, falls over, requires maintenance, leaks, harder to roof around properly, etc. The liner, unless a rare rigid liner, will be corrugated so all those wrinkles to slow draft and hold creosote. The chimney in this case is exterior and will conduct heat away from the flue and away from the home since it is largely in the living space.

Best case is that you use the chimney for a structural method of hanging up your insulated SS liner. Good until the masonry is too expensive to maintain and you may as well have spent that initial money (liner) on getting a proper rigid flue. This is what happened to me. I lined a masonry chimney and ended up tearing it all out and doing it right later.

To be clear. You don't have to remove the masonry at this time. The OP asked "what would you do" and after making the mistake of lining a chimney, I would always tear out the masonry. No more polishing a poo.

 

[bholler]

You can but you will have an inferior setup. Masonry cracks, falls over, requires maintenance,

Yes it will require maintenance if it is in good repair and built properly it should go 30 years with nothing done to it easily. Most class a chimneys will be at the end of their life at that time. As far as falling over really how many have you seen fall over?

The liner, unless a rare rigid liner, will be corrugated so all those wrinkles to slow draft and hold creosote.

That is why we always use heavywall flex which is smooth wall none of those problems apply.

The chimney in this case is exterior and will conduct heat away from the flue and away from the home since it is largely in the living space.

That is why you use insulation in the firebox and on the liner.

Best case is that you use the chimney for a structural method of hanging up your insulated SS liner. Good until the masonry is too expensive to maintain and you may as well have spent that initial money (liner) on getting a proper rigid flue. This is what happened to me. I lined a masonry chimney and ended up tearing it all out and doing it right later.

Well yes you need to look at the structure and determine if it is worth lining. If you drop a liner in a beat masonry structure then yes you will be disappointed But that does not mean it is a bad option for everyone. As an example my house has one chimney that is 98 years old still standing just fine when I moved in I re pointed roof line up and lined it and it will last as long as I need it to. The other chimney is a block chimney that was clay lined approximately 60 years old. I broke out the liners lined it and repainted the exterior and again it will last as long as i am alive and I am only 37.

I am not saying anything bad about class a chimneys they are good products and in many situations they make more sense. But they are in no way inherently superior to a good lined masonry chimney.

To be clear. You don't have to remove the masonry at this time. The OP asked "what would you do" and after making the mistake of lining a chimney, I would always tear out the masonry. No more polishing a poo.

And that is your opinion based on your experience which you are entitled to of course. But I work on and around chimneys every day and neither one is superior to the other in all situations. And a properly built and lined masonry chimney will outlast a class a chimney by far as long as it is maintained. And that maintenance is not a big deal as long as it was built right to start with and you don't ignore it. You simply need to properly evaluate what you have and decide what makes the most sense.

 

[Highbeam]

Masonry falls down all the time here in earthquake country. Well, earthquakes and poor soils mixed with a dash of low quality building methods. They are problematic.

I do believe that we are not that far apart on our opinions of masonry.

 

[bholler]

Masonry falls down all the time here in earthquake country. Well, earthquakes and poor soils mixed with a dash of low quality building methods. They are problematic.

Well yes masonry is more prone to those problems in an earthquake zone. But the op is from minnesota. And yes they do have some earthquakes but nothing like other areas.

I do believe that we are not that far apart on our opinions of masonry.

Well when you make a blanket statement class a is superior I have to disagree. In some cases you are absolutly right but in others you are absolutly wrong. It all depends upon the specifics.

 

[Maul]

Interesting that you tore it out completely and put in class a. I didn't consider that. I am thinking of doing rigid liner inside the clay tile. I realize it could be better but the masonry is in good shape. The previous owner never used it, 80 year old lady, it is built in 92. Stable soil, etc. I will insulate behind the stove as suggested. How about getting behind the stove for a clean out if I do a t connection? Can you insulate rigid liner?

 

[bholler]

Can you insulate rigid liner?

Yes but not many people use rigid at all anymore. Heavy flex is just as durable if not more so and it is much easier to install.

 

[begreen]

Is that regional? Out here if there is room to go rigid it is still used by some better sweeps and stove company installers. Personally I like it and don't find it that hard to install in a roomy chimney.

 

[Hogwildz]

I love my insulated rigid.

 

[bholler]

Is that regional? Out here if there is room to go rigid it is still used by some better sweeps and stove company installers. Personally I like it and don't find it that hard to install in a roomy chimney.

Last time I talked to the guys from olympia about it they said rigid made up about 3% of their liner sales. So Yeah I guess it could be popular in certain regions but not to many. And as long as it is straight and roomy it is not to bad to install. But heavy flex is so much easier especially if you are wrapping it. And I have seen the rivets fail on rigid much more often that I have seen the crimp on heavy flex fail.

I love my insulated rigid.

Yeah yours looks like a nice product for the right application.

 

[Maul]

Well, I have been busy in the last month and a half. Ended up ordering the Jotul F55 Carrabasset. I still have quite a bit of work left, grouting, trim, stove install, roxul installation, etc. Spent pretty much spare moment I have had on nights and weekends doing something to keep the project moving. My day job is in an office so I very much look forward to using tools and saws for a change of pace.

We have had a lot of blowdown this summer so I have been getting future winters wood ready at the same time (don't worry seasoned wood fans - this is not for this winter). I have a lot more in rows as well but these just happened to be the most photogenic. It is primarily, black (I think) ash, red, and bur oak.

Will post again when the stove is installed.

 

[MaintenanceMan]

Good looking stacks and hearth. You'll enjoy that Jotul!

 

[mol1jb]

Wow that looks like a completely new hearth. Great work on the upgrade. Looking forward to seeing the stove in place.

 

[Maul]

Wow that looks like a completely new hearth. Great work on the upgrade. Looking forward to seeing the stove in place.

Thanks, much appreciated! I can now see why people pay so much for stone work, definitely harder than it looks.

 

[begreen]

Nice work. It's going to look great with the Jotul on the hearth.

 

[Maul]

 

[Maul]

Break in fires are complete. It was just under 40 today, loaded up half a load of oak at around 6:30 before work and came home to a 72 degree house and nice bed of coals. Already optimistic for how well this thing is going to perform, now if I only started stocking piling more wood last year!

 

[begreen]

That looks awesome. I like the nice generous hearth.

 

[2ndburn]

very nice!