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Todd

Minister of Fire
Nov 19, 2005
10,342
NW Wisconsin
OK, did I miss a thread or topic about the big show out in Reno? What did all you guys that went see as far as new developments or improvements? Did VC show their new insert that Elk was talking about in his tour thread? What manufactures are coming out with new stove lines? Any type of new fancy schmancy burning system coming out that will blow away everything else?
 
Hi Todd,
How do you like your Woostock Fireview Stove?(quality, heat output, customer service, etc.).
I have read nothing of high praise for the Woodstock Stove Co. and their products. I believe that they almost have a perfect score in the Hearth Net Rating's Section. That's quite a feat.
How many BTU's is the Fireview?(55,000?). I should have looked to them for a gas stove rather than a Jotul. Big mistake!
I hope you enjoy it and have good luck and trouble free longevity with your stove.

John
 
Fire Bug said:
Hi Todd,
How do you like your Woostock Fireview Stove?(quality, heat output, customer service, etc.).
I have read nothing of high praise for the Woodstock Stove Co. and their products. I believe that they almost have a perfect score in the Hearth Net Rating's Section. That's quite a feat.
How many BTU's is the Fireview?(55,000?). I should have looked to them for a gas stove rather than a Jotul. Big mistake!
I hope you enjoy it and have good luck and trouble free longevity with your stove.

John

Love it. Does everything they claim and then some. Took a little learning curve using a cat stove, but after a season and a half, I think I got it down now.
 
Todd,
Like I said, it seems like everyone I talk to that has a Woodstock Product has nothing but the highest of praise for the company and the product they purchased from Woodstock.
Is getting to be hard to find today with all the different stove manufacturers and thier products that are constantly changing to keep up with the competition.
It seems like Woodstock manufactures a product works welland sticks to it without making alot of changes to thier products.
Why change a good thing?
Enjoy,
John
 
Not looking to change. My stove heats my 1800 sq ft nicely from the basement, but I have a masonary heatalator type fireplace on the main level that I want to do something with. Maybe insert or hearth stove, don't know yet. Woodstock told me awhile back they were looking into a new hearth stove, but was a few years away. Also heard VC and Jotul had new inserts in the works. Just like to keep my eyes peeled for anything new.
 
Todd,
From personal experience I would stay far away from a Jotul Stove or insert. Their customer assistance isn't worth crap!
I have been without a brand new stove for going three weeks now thanks to Jotul's disregard for their customers and their R&D and Quality Control Dept.'s.

John
 
Nothing fancy that I know of....more a matter of the manufacturers trying to get rid of the stoves they built in the hopes that 2006 would be like 2005 (Katrina, etc.)...

I am going to do a report of some kind - but rest assured that I don't think anyone is missing anything......

As far as customer satisfaction, it's always important to keep in mind that it may be easier to keep customers happy if you are a small operation like Woodstock - they personally sell each stove to the end user and are therefore quite tuned to the market. VC, Jotul and some others sell 30-50,000 stoves a year, and through many various dealers....and also do not employ sizable staff to deal with each stove to the level that some would like. Of course, that would be impossible anyway....you'd need 100 experts one week and 2 another (winter/summer/etc.).

Not meant as a excuse, just a statement of fact. The satisfaction of an individual customer usually comes down to their dealer....and/or their luck. In other words, if everything works well, the customer is happy. When it does not, they are less pleased. When the ball gets dropped (as with Fire Bug) or even perceived to be dropped...well, then all bets are off.

It's somewhat of a trade secret but the hearth industry is very different from most retail situations. Dealers make a % which is vastly higher than in most similar businesses, and it is the expectation of manufacturers that the dealer uses some of this $$ to service the customer. In the case of Woodstock, they make a heck of a lot more on each stove than VC does, which gives them the ability to operate as dealer AND manufacturer - and therefore control the service with personal attention.

As a dealer I sold thousands of VC's AND Jotuls, and I can certainly state that 98%+ of our customers were happy - there were surely some that fell through the cracks...that is human nature, but by and large, they were pleased.

BTW, I also sold Woodstock back in the day (they used to use dealers) and was very happy on that account also....but I didn't sell enough of them to have any problems!
 
Webmaster said:
Nothing fancy that I know of....more a matter of the manufacturers trying to get rid of the stoves they built in the hopes that 2006 would be like 2005 (Katrina, etc.)...

I am going to do a report of some kind - but rest assured that I don't think anyone is missing anything......

As far as customer satisfaction, it's always important to keep in mind that it may be easier to keep customers happy if you are a small operation like Woodstock - they personally sell each stove to the end user and are therefore quite tuned to the market. VC, Jotul and some others sell 30-50,000 stoves a year, and through many various dealers....and also do not employ sizable staff to deal with each stove to the level that some would like. Of course, that would be impossible anyway....you'd need 100 experts one week and 2 another (winter/summer/etc.).

Not meant as a excuse, just a statement of fact. The satisfaction of an individual customer usually comes down to their dealer....and/or their luck. In other words, if everything works well, the customer is happy. When it does not, they are less pleased. When the ball gets dropped (as with Fire Bug) or even perceived to be dropped...well, then all bets are off.

It's somewhat of a trade secret but the hearth industry is very different from most retail situations. Dealers make a % which is vastly higher than in most similar businesses, and it is the expectation of manufacturers that the dealer uses some of this $$ to service the customer. In the case of Woodstock, they make a heck of a lot more on each stove than VC does, which gives them the ability to operate as dealer AND manufacturer - and therefore control the service with personal attention.

As a dealer I sold thousands of VC's AND Jotuls, and I can certainly state that 98%+ of our customers were happy - there were surely some that fell through the cracks...that is human nature, but by and large, they were pleased.

BTW, I also sold Woodstock back in the day (they used to use dealers) and was very happy on that account also....but I didn't sell enough of them to have any problems!

Hi Craig,
I agree with your statement about a smaller buisness having more control over customer satisfaction than a much larger manufacturer: to a certain point.
I definitely am not "Percieveing" that the ball has been dropped in my situation with Jotul, it was down right "Fumbled" by Jotul and the dealer is in the middle trying recover the fumble and run for the goal line.
How many years ago were you an authorized dealer for Jotul? Do you think maybe things have changed with Jotul in their R&D and customer support efforts? Not to mention their dealer support.
I also believe that it all depends on which side of the street you are on. If your a customer that spends thousands of dollars for a product that he believes is constucted and distributed by a supposingly reputable manufacturer to provide said customer with satisfactory service for at least the warranty period,(but hopefully a bit longer would be nice also), only to find that you cannot use this product because it is defective only after a few months of service. After contacting this manufacture, you are told through one of their dealers, the above mentioned company does not know when your product will be fixed because they don't know when they,(Jotul), will have the parts avaiable to try to fix this defective product. If it is this side of the street that you are on, I am sure an individual surely will be "Ticked" off to say the least!
But, if you are on the other side of the street, (Jotul), and you manufacture 30k to50k units a year, I wouldn't be affraid to bet that it is no big deal to let one customer, such as I, "Fall Through The Cracks".
I guess at the time you had the Jotul Dealership, 98% was a pretty darn good batting average for Jotul. What has happened to them now in 2007? I guess I am part of the 2%. I really would rather be in the 98 percentile.
Advertiseing on websites by a stove manufacturer can definitely grab a consumers attention and give them a false sense of security and lead them in the wrong direction, but not standing behind their advertised products, will surely come back an bite them in the rear sooner or later, guaranteed!
I believe this why the Better Buisness Bureau and The Office Of Consumer Protection was formed some years ago. To protect the consumer and also if warranted, the manufacturer.

Thanks,
John
 
Sorry you've had a bad experience John. FWIW, it isn't always that way. We have a few good local Jotul dealers locally that were fine to work with. And in one instance year before last, when the dealer couldn't solve it, I was connected directly to Jotul tech support. The techy didn't have the answer and so the next step was to replace the stove which the dealer was ready to do. Fortunately in our case, I figured out the issue was a mis-seated lid and could easily fix it myself. But I found the support system worked ok in my case. But this was for the most part made true by a cooperative and helpful dealer.
 
Back to the original post . Well I have learned, that The Resolute Acclaim Has not been upgraded to the everburn technology
 
elkimmeg said:
Back to the original post . Well I have learned, that The Resolute Acclaim Has not been upgraded to the everburn technology

Hey Elk,
Any word on the new VC insert?
 
elkimmeg said:
Back to the original post . Well I have learned, that The Resolute Acclaim Has not been upgraded to the everburn technology


Perhaps the model they had at the show was a one time only affair? I can assure you there wasn't a cat combustor in it.
 
Did any of you guys get a good look at the new P.E. Alderlea? I've only seen it in their new brochure but it looks pretty sweet.
 
I have a Jotul C450 insert and love it and the local dealer I bought it from is great. My advice to you is that when the dealer says he can't help and Jotul tells the dealer "we don't have the parts", then you get their attention (and a free new stove or they fix it) by paying the $25 or so and filing against Jotul in small claims court.......they can ignore you but I GUARANTY you the they WON'T and CAN'T ignore a subpoena to appear in small claims court.......once they get that subpoena (I think it costs about $25 to have one served by law enforcement) they'll correct the problem REALLY fast and you probably won't even have to go to court.......Why? Because they know beforehand that if they tell their same lame-ass-excuse to the judge that they gave you, the judge will slam his/her gavel and rule in your favor...... and Jotul knows it.....and that's why it will never get to court.........Jotul will address the problem BEFORE it goes to court......so....my advice: file against Jotul and Jotul will contact you directly..........
 
I have won in small claims court twice. Both times it did not get me one dime!

First of all, small claims court these days pushes the two parties to settle this before the court date. Then, if you show up, you are also pointed to mediators who try to settle it. Then, if it is not settled you get the case to be called. If the other party does not show (which they usually do not), you win - you get a judgment which is worth about exactly the piece of paper it is written on! In most states you have no way of collecting on the judgement.....

When all is said and done, you have lost many hours of time and get nothing!

No, I'm not an attorney, but I can assure you that problems are best addressed by reasonable people who go through the usual steps......now some people enjoy frustration - that's another thing altogether!

I usually place the min. "damage" that is worth going to the legal system for as about $10K - meaning it has to be over that (usually far over that) for it to be worth a lawyer. Small claims doesn't need one....but, then again, as I said you often don't get anything!

The best way to get satisfaction is to be understanding and reasonable - and patient. It may not be what you want or desire, but it is still the best way. I say this from being on both sides of the fence....as a merchant and as a customer.

The exception MIGHT be when you are completely screwed, glued and tattooed and you 100% KNOW that things will not be taken care of....As a dealer I once bought 20 inserts from a company that were 100% defective - I could not sell or install them. The vendor closed down soon after, leaving me with no recourse and I had to sell parts (like the doors and glass) from them to make up about 10% of the loss...the rest was history.

All in all, it's just a material "thing". Life is not worth being hassled and hassling (often the same thing) more than needed.

That, of course, is very general advice and contains my opinion. Making molehills into mountains is often only for those who don't have other mountains to climb.
 
castiron said:
I have a Jotul C450 insert and love it and the local dealer I bought it from is great. My advice to you is that when the dealer says he can't help and Jotul tells the dealer "we don't have the parts", then you get their attention (and a free new stove or they fix it) by paying the $25 or so and filing against Jotul in small claims court.......they can ignore you but I GUARANTY you the they WON'T and CAN'T ignore a subpoena to appear in small claims court.......once they get that subpoena (I think it costs about $25 to have one served by law enforcement) they'll correct the problem REALLY fast and you probably won't even have to go to court.......Why? Because they know beforehand that if they tell their same lame-ass-excuse to the judge that they gave you, the judge will slam his/her gavel and rule in your favor...... and Jotul knows it.....and that's why it will never get to court.........Jotul will address the problem BEFORE it goes to court......so....my advice: file against Jotul and Jotul will contact you directly..........

Castiron,
As I said in my Firebug's Jotul Post, I have the Consumer Product Safety Commission coming to the house to photograph the stove and get more info. on it.
My next step is my Local Better Buisness Bureaur on line to file a report and also a stop payment on my credit card that was used to purchase this unit.
I rather try these routes before small claims court, but I will not rule that out.
This is truly aggravating. If I knew this I would have bought a used stove on E-Bay and took my chances, than if I had a problem I would not be so surprised.
Better yet, I am starting to think maybe I should of kept my Fisher Papa Bear. I took care of it, it took care of me!

Thanks,
John
 
Well, this thread sure went a different way than I had planned. Sorry about your problems with Jotul Fire bug, but could you keep them in your own thread?

Looking forward to your report Craig.
 
Webmaster said:
If the other party does not show (which they usually do not), you win - you get a judgment which is worth about exactly the piece of paper it is written on! In most states you have no way of collecting on the judgement.....

Web, Web, Web....what are we going to do with you...LOL..... I GUARANTEE that if you win against Jotul that they'll pay.........they've only been in business since about 1853 and only make the largest selling small cast iron stove in North America, and on and on and on.........

Webmaster said:
No, I'm not an attorney, but I can assure you that problems are best addressed by reasonable people who go through the usual steps......now some people enjoy frustration - that's another thing altogether!

Web,

I've noticed in life that the "thresh hold of pain" for outsiders (you and me in this case) is often far greater than is the level for the person directly involved in the matter and who is suffering from poor service (FireBUg in this case)....that said, when something like this happened to me (not with a stove) while I didn't enjoy threatening small claims court, that when I explained to the guy how it would work, he agreed that I was right.....and the problem was resolved....and, oh, by the way, he was a lawyer and I'm not but he knew and open and shut case when he saw it.........
 
Todd,

sorry for the response to someone else hijacking the thread...got carried away. Along the line of your question, what if anything did anyone see concerning future appproaches to cleaning up stoves (as Todd implied)....i.e., any tertiary burners, etc? Basically, what's coming down the pipeline in the way of new EPA regs and how do manufacturers plan on meeting these new requirements?
 
Cast the state od Wa has already forced manufactures to reduce GPH from EPA 7.6 to 4.6 and the cat stoves to 2.5. In order to sella stove in WA it must meed their GPH standard.
I suspect the EPA will adopt sommilar standards
 
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