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Post in 'The Gear' started by Big Donnie Brasco, Apr 22, 2013.
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Avgas? I wouldn't bother for many reasons:
Current going price is about $6.50 a gallon
Other than being ethanol free, 100LL doesn't have anything magic in it that will make it store longer than pump gas. Gas goes bad from the hydrocarbons oxidizing - I'd still use stabil/seafom/etc for storage.
It does have better quality control and better additives so the equipment will run a little cleaner. Would you notice a real world difference in a saw? probably not unless you leave old gas sitting in the carb for years unrun.
Assuming the saw is designed for 87 octane you will have slightly less power output (remember, the higher the octane the lower the specific energy of the fuel)
As Jags mentions, it has a lot of lead in it - 2 grams of TEL per gallon, whereas back in the day leaded mogas had something like 0.1g TEL/gal and that was bad news. I wouldn't want to use it. There is talk of it being banned eventually in aviation as well.
Also the high lead content of 100LL can foul spark plugs over time if the motor is not designed for it like aviation engines.
One other comment about octane. Don't forget that in Europe they use RON to label fuels, not the AKI method (RON+MON/2) we use here. I beleive that in many countries over there the typical fuels are 91 RON (87 usa), 95 RON (90 usa) and 98 RON (93 usa) If you buy a European brand saw (Stihl, Husquavarna) and the manual calls for high octane it might be worthwhile checking if it really needs our high octane gas or its just a direct translation of the Euro spec.
I run premium pump gas in all my toys and mix the marine grade Stabil in all my tanks. I have no access locally for non-corn gas so I just go with what is available and when I store the saws I dump the gas back into the can and run a little of the pre-mix high quality stuff into the saw for a few seconds and call it good. I am not sure any of this is necessary but I like to take care of my toys and like them to start when needed so this provides me peace of mind which I find "priceless"
Already discussed this. I run a 50/50 mix in my race car (it's tuned to run on it) and you can smell the fumes from feet away. Do you want to be breathing that in from a muffler that is 3ft your face?
The one you mentioned is 35mi away, and a Marina not open in winter, I did find another station 20mi away but ,40mi to go get some gas ?
[quote="HDRock, post: 1437779, ] I did find another station 20mi away but ,40mi to go get some gas ?[/quote]
I do around 30 to get mine . It's worth it to me ,as the ethanol gas here can go form 8 to 15 percent ( personally tested ) .
Still waiting for someone to build a saw to run E85. You can make big power on alchohol.
Gonna drink fuel quick for sure but might be fun!
I have thought about converting my big truck to run E85 exclusively but only a couple stations around here and I don't pass them frequently.
Well, you said there was zero availability for E0 gas for you. Now you want things to be more convenient? I have to go 15 miles each way to get E0 here, and I am happy to do it. I fill up a 5 gallon can of E0 on my way to town once or twice a month. It has zero impact as I have to go 20 miles one way just to go to the grocery and hardware stores anyway. If you add StaBil like I do, the gas will stay fresh for a year (in the can and in the saws). Double the amount of Stabil and it will stay fresh for two years. And w/o any ethanol in there, there is no moisture absorbed by the gas over time and no chance for phase separation. It works for me... I guess it all depends on your use, priorities and investments. I have a lot of 2-stroke equipment that I use all the time and money tied up in them, so for me its a no-brainer.
Likely there are saws made in Brazil to run E85. Good luck getting E85 to start in a chainsaw below freezing. For that reason winter blended E85 is really E70. E85 also gets you about 33% less gas mileage.
That's huge. Couple people I know of that run it in their newer vehicles and see a 2-3 MPG drop in mileage. That's roughly a 10-12% drop. If that 10% applied to my big truck, I would see less than a 1 MPG reduction.
Both Husky and Stihl specifically retune their imported European (and other sourced) saws to run on US grades of gasoline. Both call for US mid-grade gas of 89 AKI or above. There have been many issues with Dolmar saws, especially the 5100s that were not re-tuned for lower US octane gas and they blew up a lot as a result. Many threads on that issue online.
European gas typically has higher octane than in the US. It also depends on where in Europe you are, but you can get super premium grades there for cars that are not available here in the US. Specifically in France (and most of Europe), regular unleaded gas has a RON of 95, and an AKI equivalent of 91, which is just below supreme gas here in the US. V-Power Supreme in Germany has a RON of 100, and an AKI of about 95.
They just ain't the same.
Are they sure its only 10% ? Ethanol has a much lower BTU content per gallon (70k vs 115k if I recall) and runs at a much richer ideal A/F ratio (8:1 vs 14.7:1)
Well, I do not know where they get those numbers. Do the math: E85 is 85% ethanol (summer blend). Ethanol has 60% of the energy of gasoline. 15% is the same, add 85% multiplied by 60% to that to get a result 51%, and so 15% + 51% = 66%. So E85 is 34% less fuel efficient than standard (E0) gasoline. Comparing E85 to E10 which has 4% less energy than E0, E85 has 70% of the energy of E10, and is 30% less fuel efficient. Even comparing E70 (winter blend E85) to E10, E85W has 76% of the energy of E10, or 24% less fuel efficient.
10%? no way Jose....
I didn't know there was a station that distance ,now I do ,thanks for the info.
I do use stabil when I fill a can, If I go to that station and get 5 or 10 gal, It will probably be worth the trip, thanks again for the info
I may be spoiled to , grocery store is half a mi, hardware is 3mi, Home Depot 2mi etc, you get the idea, most any thing I need is within 5 to 10mi or less
I just run premium with a cap full of motor cote gas additive in 5 gallons and the saws love it.
I think Donnie is regretting what he started. I sure am...
I'm only reporting what they tell me. I don't have a flex-fuel vehicle to try E85 in myself. I don't think I'd be burning off a lot of it in a daily driver if the 30% number turns out to be right on.
Yes. I'm no chemist, and I'm guessing you're not either, but why would you think think that the god-knows-what in pump gas is any better for you at 3' than AvGas?
Said everyone that's never used it. . .
Because the Tetraethyl lead in av gas was banned from use in cars because it's a poison. I'm sure reg gas isn't white puffy colds on rainbow island either, but it's at least a little better.
Also it's a very dry fuel. I know a few guys that have toasted car engines running with without any lube additives. In my car I run a 50/50 mix of 100LL and pump fuel. If you insist on running it in a saw you should probably up the mix ratio a bit.
From the interwebs: (TEL is Tetraethyl lead)
Lead pollution from engine exhaust is dispersed into the air and into the vicinity of roads and easily inhaled. Contact with concentrated TEL leads to acute lead poisoning:
Lead is a toxic metal that accumulates in the body and is associated with subtle and insidious neurotoxic effects especially at low exposure levels, such as low IQ and antisocial behavior. It has particularly harmful effects on children. These concerns eventually led to the ban on TEL in automobile gasoline in many countries. Some neurologists have speculated that the lead phaseout may have caused average IQ levels to rise by several points in the US (by reducing cumulative brain damage throughout the population, especially in the young). For the entire US population, during and after the TEL phaseout, the mean blood lead level dropped from 16 μg/dL in 1976 to only 3 μg/dL in 1991. The US Centers for Disease Control considered blood lead levels "elevated" when they were above 10 μg/dL. Lead exposure affects the intelligence quotient (IQ) such that a blood lead level of 30 μg/dL is associated with a 6.9-point reduction of IQ, with most reduction (3.9 points) occurring below 10 μg/dL.
A statistically significant correlation has been found between the usage rate of leaded gasoline and violent crime: taking into account a 22-year time lag, the violent crime curve virtually tracks the lead exposure curve. After the ban on TEL, blood lead levels in US children dramatically decreased.
Although leaded gasoline is largely gone in North America, it has left high concentrations of lead in the soil adjacent to roads that were constructed prior to its phaseout. Children are particularly at risk if they consume this.
So you're saying that occasional proximity to the exhaust fumes of leaded gasoline is analogous to eating chips of lead based paint?
Its the lead... lead is far worse than anything else in gas exhaust fumes at 3 feet. It does not burn, and is released in the exhaust. Gas is highly toxic but when its burned it produces mostly CO2 and water. TEL also burns to produce CO2 and water, and lead, and there are also lead based scavenging compounds in leaded gas to keep the burned TEL lead from building up in the engine. All the lead is pumped out into the air around the saw. And no, I am not a chemist either, just an engineer...
During the days of leaded gas and the onset of heavy traffic in places like Los Angeles, the CA Highway Patrol were getting sick and having mental problems. It was discovered that they had half the lethal dose of lead in their bloodstreams. Those findings started the process of removing lead from gas in CA and then nationally. First it was low lead, then no lead. Any lead exposure is not good, and neurotoxic effects are common even with low levels of lead exposure. The main problem is that lead accumulates in the body from exposure over time and it takes a long time for your body to eliminate it.
So yes, parking yourself by a chainsaw spewing fumes from running leaded AVgas, even occasionally, is a bad thing boss. Its make yu dummer, amung otter thangs.