Which Flame Looks Better

[checkthisout]

I agree w/ everyone above...the one on the right is what I would prefer, if there was no other choice.

That said, I think that the right one is a little too "blowtorch-y" for me. As Smokey said, too much air just sends a lot of the heat right up the exhaust. If you can dial the air back a little bit, I think you'd be right on the money.

If you are getting higher exhaust temperatures with the same feed rate, aren't you generating a hotter stove and theirfore getting better heat transfer?

Has anyone checked their exhaust temperature to see what's ideal?

I would venture to guess that at some point the incoming air mass (if greater than what is necessary for good combustion) begins to generate colder stove temps but has anyone taken flu readings to see if this sort of situation can even be generated in most stoves?

Actually a higher exhaust temperature at the same feed means the heat is going up the flue and not being transfered to the room air via the convection system.

You want the exhaust temperature to be just as close to the condensation temperature of the byproducts of combustion as you can get it and still have the byproducts exit the flue. If your system can actually deal with the condensing byproducts you want the flue temperature so low everything condenses. Burning wood that means the tars, and other really nasty things.

Right but we are assuming that variable is unchanged. Adjusting our combustion air supply to achieve the highest possible flue temperature (the easiest to measure) is ideal.

All variables being equal, a higher stack temperature indicates a hotter burn and theirfore more heat being given off by the stove.

This relationship is true because all heat is generated before the heat exchanger.

I keep meaning to bring my thermocouple home so I can play around.

 

[jtakeman]

I agree w/ everyone above...the one on the right is what I would prefer, if there was no other choice.

That said, I think that the right one is a little too "blowtorch-y" for me. As Smokey said, too much air just sends a lot of the heat right up the exhaust. If you can dial the air back a little bit, I think you'd be right on the money.

If you are getting higher exhaust temperatures with the same feed rate, aren't you generating a hotter stove and theirfore getting better heat transfer?

Has anyone checked their exhaust temperature to see what's ideal?

I would venture to guess that at some point the incoming air mass (if greater than what is necessary for good combustion) begins to generate colder stove temps but has anyone taken flu readings to see if this sort of situation can even be generated in most stoves?

Actually a higher exhaust temperature at the same feed means the heat is going up the flue and not being transfered to the room air via the convection system.

You want the exhaust temperature to be just as close to the condensation temperature of the byproducts of combustion as you can get it and still have the byproducts exit the flue. If your system can actually deal with the condensing byproducts you want the flue temperature so low everything condenses. Burning wood that means the tars, and other really nasty things.

Right but we are assuming that variable is unchanged. Adjusting our combustion air supply to achieve the highest possible flue temperature (the easiest to measure) is ideal.

All variables being equal, a higher stack temperature indicates a hotter burn and theirfore more heat being given off by the stove.

This relationship is true because all heat is generated before the heat exchanger.

I keep meaning to bring my thermocouple home so I can play around.

Everything has a balance. With all the pellet testing I have done, Finding that temps go up with less combustion air on the heat exchanger. But if you reduce the the feed air too much the sooty burn comes into play. Yes stack temps go up with increased combustion air, But the convection temps drop as well.

Set the burn with a visual on flame. If the firebox or glass get dark colored stains, raise the combustion air(slightly) or reduce feed to clean up the burn. Over doing the combustion air will only send precious heat out the vent.

 

[gpack]

I'm going with the team here. Right
"left wing" fires are typically a bit lazy as one might suspect....

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

All variables being equal, a higher stack temperature indicates a hotter burn and theirfore more heat being given off by the stove.

Heat going out the stack reduces the heat that goes into the room, a higher the stack temperature the lower the room temperature.

This relationship is true because all heat is generated before the heat exchanger.

...

Does not apply when talking heating efficiency.

100 x (Heat into the room / (Heat into the room + Heat up the flue))

The more heat you send up the flue the lower the efficiency of the burn.


ETA: To make it perfectly clear you want the burn to proceed with exactly enough air to complete combustion and no more. This is why you try to stay as close to the boundary of what is considered a bad burn instead of producing a blowtorch burn. Most (but not all) pellet stoves use way more combustion air than is ideal.

 

[Snowy Rivers]

At the risk of insults, and it is not intended.

The manufactures buid these stoves with minimal adjustments to air and fuel control for a reason.

Far too many of the "Burning Public" dont have a clue what a good fire looks like and if the stove had more controls, the only thing that would occur would be a ton of grief for the Tech support guys.

For someone who understands the concept of the burn and how to adjust things right down to the Gnats butt, having combustion air variables as well as fuel control variables that can be mananged to a great degree are a real plus.

This reasoning is why most stoves made today are not equiped with much in the way of adjustments.

The manufactures do the testing and set the stove to work right in the sweet spot, with only a small amount of adjustment.

Depending on the fuel used, altitude of the installation and a few other variables, having controls on the exhaust/inducer fan speed as well as a damper and also the fuel feed (More than just a Low, med, high setting) would allow the operator to finesse things right into the perfect burn zone.

The mentality of some folks (no insult meant) has come from the "turn up the stat and the house gets warm thinking process" and not from undertanding how the process of combustion works.

My personal feeling here is this, as a pellet stove owner, you are an operator and not a spectator.

A spectator sits by and pays little if any attention to things and ends up with a stove that is clogged with ash and does not work.

The operator pays reasonable attention to detail and sees to the needs of the stove and adjusts it accordingly as required to maintain optimum operations.

A pellet stove is not (IMHO) a turn it on and forget it appliance (Preaching to the Choir, I know)



As a Basic "OUTLAW" I run non standard fuel (Although in the fine print, the Whitfield is rated for "Nut Hulls" ) I have to tend my stoves at least twice a day. Filling the hoppers and watching the fuel level (The shells do not roll down the hopper and will "VOID") I also need to shut off the fuel feed twice daily and allow the pot to burn down, then scrape the clinker out and then let it go again.



The need to tend these machines is one of the reasons why you will find some fairly new stoves for sale after a season or two, listed on Craigs list or at a garage sale.

A lot of people are simply not capable or do not want to OPERATE a stove.

Around here, "Stove Chores" are a Morning and Eavening thing.

Get up in the morning, check the hopper, clear the clinker, fill the hopper.

Get home from work, and do it again.

Ready for bed, give it a quick check.

Depending on the usuage, Sunday is stove day. Shut down, cool off, clean and service and relight.

This is a normal routine from Late September until June and I am sure that most of us here have some facimile of this going on as I write this.


I have found that the folks that frequent the "Boards" on line are either looking for something or are like many of us, just looking to share with others or enjoy the friendship of the group/chat

For those new to almost anything, the Boards offer a lot of help and advice for sure.


Keep the fire burning

Ohhhh and dont get caught being a "Spectator"

Snowy

 

[twojrts]

You are so right, Snowy. It is a PITA to have to clean it every day, BUT, the pleasure from the warmth you get from your stove is SO WELL WORTH IT!!

Not to mention the savings by not paying the oil/gas man!! LOL I love that part!!

 

[FordMastertech]

Snowy Rivers
A pellet stove is not (IMHO) a turn it on and forget it appliance (Preaching to the Choir, I know)

I couldn't agree more with this BUT a lot are sold by the dealers and big box stores on that principal and that's when the problem start. :bug:

 

[Snowy Rivers]

If we could grab one of our fav pellet burners and teleport it and us back to say 1965 to 1970.

The folks of this time period fully understood tending a fire and doing what many of us do today to save $$$$ heating our home.

Also the majority of the folks of this time period were not nearly as gullible to the smooth sales pitch as so many are today.

Folks of the 60's-70's would have grabbed these pellet burners up like hotcakes.

I am 58 now and grew up a child of the 50's and 60's
I remember the little pot belly stove in the Kitchen, the fireplace in the living room and my mom cooked on a wood range uo until I was about 7-8 YO

People today have grown up having almost everything done for them, or automated to the point that they had little to no contact with the equipment that heated their home.

The kids dont understand what "Making change" means and if the power goes off, or the register at the coffee bar locks up, they are lost.

These same folks dont understand and or were never taught how to drive a real automobile, that has neither traction control or antilock brakes.

The thing lands in the ditch and they have not a clue as to what happened. The deer in the headlights look with this crowd is rampant.

Geeeeeeeeeeez, "I dont understand what happened" its not supposed to do that.

Hmmmm, seems to me that the coefficient of friction was not good enough to maintain the adhesion of the tires to the ground surface eh ?????


This complacent attitude when applied to a Pellet stove is a sure fire recipe for trouble, poor performance of the stove, grief to the manufacture and in its worst case, the safety of those living in the household where the stove is installed.

Education today has forgotten the basics of survival.

I enjoy watching the TV series, Survivor.

Now it is a game and the folks there are in no real danger of anything terrible happening to them.

There always seems to be one in every bunch that undertands how to make fire with minimal tools or even using there glasses to harness the sun to get a fire going.

Then there are those who sit and shiver from the cold wet rainy weather and groan.

Now the ones that can't do anything will be the first to vote off those who can do stuff as they percieve them as a threat.

Enough on Survivor, but this gets the idea across anyway.

As I mentioned before, owning these sort of appliances is not a spectator sport, but a full time job.

If ones mental outlook percieves this as drugery and something that is not to be tollerated, then the easy way out is of course to simply write out the check to the oil company or the electric company and be still.

Myself, I can't afford to pay out huge sums of $$$$ every month to heat the shack.

My electric bill is still $300 plus a month and this is almost year round.

The cost for my nut shell supply for the heating season will run about $125 give or take a little.

This thread has been successfully highkacked.

I think I will start a new thread devoted to "Ranting" on the merits of owning a stove and other high points of the issue.

We shall try to get this thread back to the look and feel of the fire in the tray.

Snowy