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Will Alaska be the next Washington?

Post in 'The Hearth Room - Wood Stoves and Fireplaces' started by KaptJaq, Feb 21, 2013.

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  1. KaptJaq

    KaptJaq Minister of Fire

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    Not the first story I've seen of this nature. Is it OWBs, smoke dragons, and poor burning habits causing the problem? The topographical layout of the Fairbanks area?

    http://www.latimes.com/news/nationw...rbanks-air-pollution-20130217,0,1737295.story

    This type action will probably slowly spread around the country. How should wood burners respond? What actions should they support? Should the state try to guide to cleaner burning equipment and habits? Burn Bans?

    KaptJaq

    Moderators please move this to the appropriate forum...

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  2. BrowningBAR

    BrowningBAR Minister of Fire

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    If they were smoking that bad I doubt they were "cranking."

    Smoldering, yes. But not cranking.
    Mitch Newton and lopiliberty like this.
  3. n3pro

    n3pro Minister of Fire

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    Smoldering, bad burning habits, and OWB's typically the one's I have seen have short chimneys which hinders draft and are usually belching smoke. I'm sure topography has some to do with it.

    How will other places respond? Some have, it isn't new. We will see.

    It has been one concern of mine being in a community with an HOA. I not only check my wood, flue, and stove top temp but take frequent walks outside to check my emissions; I know I'm burning clean however someone is not. There have been a few times that I walked out and the smoke was heavy. I was out with the brightest light I have and knew it wasn't from me BUT I'm the one with 4 1/2 cord of wood stacked in the back yard.

    Personally I can't stand the heavy dirty burning that occurs with the one OWB three miles away and the occasional other person who I haven't found yet. Makes my eyes water and gives me a headache. Time with tell. I have the John Gulland videos and articles bookmarked ready just in case the home owners association nazi's start questioning me.

    I read somewhere last year where some town was fining anyone with more the two cord of wood for not having a commercial firewood seller licences. I do my best to keep smoke pollution at a minimum and do my best to keep friendly with the neighbors. I love wood heating and take pride in not being able to tell from the outside that i'm burning.
  4. weatherguy

    weatherguy Minister of Fire

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    The local government should come up with a program similar to here in Mass where the people with old smoke dragons can turn them in and get money towards a new EPA stove, also educating them on burning well seasoned wood would go a long ways towards solving their problem.
    Jon1270 and Mitch Newton like this.
  5. begreen

    begreen Mooderator Staff Member

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    Cleaner burning benefits us all. I say let the states adopt WA state stds. Most all stoves meet this standard already. The more we burn cleanly the longer we can burn cleanly.
    John_M likes this.
  6. StihlHead

    StihlHead Guest

    Alaska is in a long line of states that have restrictions on OWBs. Most of New England and New York in particular. Why Alaska would make a state-wide ban on OWBs is beyond me. But like the rest of the west, the few socialist high population centers make endless demands and requirements on the rural lower populated areas, at their expense.

    You vill not burn any more vood. From no ont, you vill only burn ze oil and ze gaz because zey have der lobby that pays your politicians in der election. Unterstood? Sieg Heil! <click!>
    milleo and mikefrommaine like this.
  7. begreen

    begreen Mooderator Staff Member

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    It's easy to stretch reality to a paranoid level but WA and OR are hardly suffering from extremes. We burn a lot of wood and have a lot of wood stove mfgs. in the state that are striving under current regs.
  8. StihlHead

    StihlHead Guest

    Yah, all those OWB manufactures up there in WA are doing just great, huh? Never mind all the people in WA that had to decommission their OWBs. We should all adopt WA state standards nationally, because the people in the Puget Sound think it is a good idea.

    That's right America, bend over, because the people in Washington say its good for you.

    Sieg Heil! <again>
    milleo likes this.
  9. KaptJaq

    KaptJaq Minister of Fire

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    Sorry, I was hoping for some constructive posts on wood burning and air quality.

    I think there are problems that need to be addressed. In my opinion OWBs need to burn cleaner. Basins like LA, Seattle, some cities in Colorado, and Fairbanks need some rules. One poor quality burner should not be able to pollute the air for an entire town. If the people that want to burn wood do not address these very visible problems themselves the government will. The government has to listen to the loudest voice and the majority of people in this country are not wood burners.

    When I was collecting wood after the Sandy hurricane one of my neighbors asked me "Why so much?" I told him I burn 24/7. He said no way, there is never any smoke from your house. I burn two stoves, an EPA & a pre-EPA, cleanly. Others on this block burn EPA stoves worse than smoke dragons. If wood burners would be considerate of their neighbors there would be few, if any, problems.

    One guy that burns very dirty says he can't really smell so it is not that bad, why should he change? His neighbor's house is constantly shrouded in smoke from his stove and hates all wood burners. Something has to give... What do you think the town hears? My neighbor who does not realize I burn is not going to call the town. His neighbor complains weekly.

    At this point maybe this can be moved to the ash can.

    KaptJaq
    Jon1270 likes this.
  10. Highbeam

    Highbeam Minister of Fire

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    We, in WA, can't have wood furnaces either.

    The "people" in WA, well the voting majority, are city folks just as with many states. The city folks have always been telling the rural folks, the minority, what to do.
    cnice_37 likes this.
  11. BrowningBAR

    BrowningBAR Minister of Fire

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    No matter what new regulations are put into play that make stove manufacturers produce cleaner burning stoves, a wood burner with poor burning habits will be able to smolder and smoke any stove.
    milleo likes this.
  12. corey21

    corey21 Minister of Fire

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    Plus i know people near me that cut a tree and start burning it that day .
  13. KaptJaq

    KaptJaq Minister of Fire

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    [rant] Then the regulations have to match the situation. 20% opacity at the flue exit? No more than 30 minutes of smoke a day? Get the stove started quickly and burn it correctly or loose your right to burn. The few that cannot read the owners manual or will not watch how much smoke or where it goes should not mess it up for the rest of us.

    If my child had asthma and your smoke was making it worse I would be angry. When non-burners hear how your smoke is hurting my CHILD they will be angry also. YOU are hurting a CHILD just because you want to play with fire. They will all call town hall and tell the mayor how you are hurting a CHILD. Concerns about $4.00/gallon oil go right out the window, we must save that CHILD.

    When regulations are proposed clean burners should make their voices heard. They should not wait for the law to be passed then complain. They should proactively suggest solutions that are acceptable to all. This forum has a lot of members. We should discuss the related issues openly. I know that one of my town council members is a regular lurker here. I am sure there are others here and at woodheat. [/rant]

    KaptJaq
    John_M likes this.
  14. BrowningBAR

    BrowningBAR Minister of Fire

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    And how do you enforce that?

    And on the flip side of the coin, that same parent can claim the same thing from a wood burner that is burning properly.

    Even with a "lot" of members, we are the vast minority of how the wood burning population thinks. There are a LOT of wood burners in the northeast. Most are not owners of OWBs. Most are wood stoves. The majority have smoke pouring out of the chimney.

    We are the minority.
  15. Lumber-Jack

    Lumber-Jack Minister of Fire

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    StihlHead are you familiar with Godwin's law?
    Reason I ask is because you invoked it a little too early in the thread I think. ;)
  16. Machria

    Machria Minister of Fire

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    LOL! ;lol
  17. Redlegs

    Redlegs Feeling the Heat

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    Vat Vaz Goot! :)
  18. nate379

    nate379 Guest

    Many of us are just tired that the .gov has to come up with all sorts of laws "for the good". I'm tired of having to be P.C. and worrying about someone's feelers getting hurt.
    I'm at the point where I just want to move out on 100 acres in BFE and not have to deal with the .gov. I'm tired of taxes out the ass, yet the .gov burns though money like it's never ending... well on what is "important".

    In the case of a smokey neighbor... it's up to the people it's bothering to work it out. Why does the .gov have to get involved?

    I'm not saying we should have a lawless "wild west", but enough is enough!
    milleo, Scols, corey21 and 1 other person like this.
  19. loon

    loon Minister of Fire

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    I get a kick out of the picture showing industrial smokestacks in action! ::-)

    loon
  20. begreen

    begreen Mooderator Staff Member

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    OWB are not banned in WA state, just the ones that don't pass EPA Method 28 WHH or ASTM E2618. So far no company has invested in the testing required, though some are close. Greenwood's Frontier CX, made in WA, passes this standard. It's made for indoor use, but all it needs is a shed to be an OWB. I think we'll see more companies testing to Method 28 now that the bans on the smokiest OWB are extending to other states. FWIW, I live in rural WA and am glad for this ruling. In Western WA we live between mountains that hold in smoke during inversions. The cleaner we can keep the air the better, for all of us. If your neighbor is smoking up the neighborhood and tells you to go screw, what then, start a pig farm?
  21. KaptJaq

    KaptJaq Minister of Fire

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    Same way my town enforces noise nuisance (read barking dog) laws. Neighbor complains to town. Town asks neighbor to supply three examples of violations including day and time. Next thing you notice a code enforcement officer walking the block during times that the neighbor cited. Code enforcement hears the dog, first time leaves a copy of the town code. Second time a summons.

    There probably wasn't even a child in the first place. She just used that to get sympathy and the mayor's ear. If you burn clean there probably would never have been an issue. Most people are surprised to see how much wood I actually burn smoke free.

    Get some code on the books and a procedure to educate or restrict them before we all loose our right to burn.

    KaptJaq
  22. StihlHead

    StihlHead Guest

    True, I should have said WA politicians and/or the voting majority. It seems that up there even with a 60% majority vote (on the booze sale issue), the government rams something other than what people wanted down their throats (as in huge booze taxes).
  23. BrowningBAR

    BrowningBAR Minister of Fire

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    Lots of additional cost. Lots of litigation.

    There are plenty of HOA conflicts that prove the "if you aren't doing anything wrong you have nothing to worry about" line of thinking to be wrong. Even "if" you burn clean, you will still get smoke. You are just asking for reasons for people to fine and tax you. You are asking for headaches.

    I have seen neighbors, time and again, go out of their way to pick at something or someone they do not like. You see smoke, I see steam. If you don't like me, you will see smoke.
    milleo likes this.
  24. KaptJaq

    KaptJaq Minister of Fire

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    I guess it is better to do nothing and wait for the axe to fall...

    I like scrounging wood, splitting with a maul, stacking, and burning. I don't want that taken away because some guy down the block burns green wood poorly. If I can work with the town to create something that works and is enforceable I will try before burning is outlawed here.

    KaptJaq
  25. BrowningBAR

    BrowningBAR Minister of Fire

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    You aren't talking about "one guy down the block." The vast majority of wood burners burn green wood. The majority do not have good burning practices. The majority think the work we put into this and the planning is ridiculous and unnecessary. You can pretend it is "one guy down the block" but that ain't reality.

    Also, what are you going to do with fireplaces? Ban all of those? Because those smoke. What are you going to tell them?

    "Hey, you know that feature you paid for on your house? Yeah, we decided to ban that. Brick it up."

    I mean, considering 9 out of 10 homes in this area have fireplaces, I'd like to see how that would go down.
    Scols likes this.
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