WOOD STOVE BASE
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Gooserider
Mod Emeritus
ROYJ24 said:
You may get an earful about your choice of stoves (Vogelzang is not well regarded...) but the key answer to your question is what does your manual say?
If the manual calls for insulation meeting a certain R-value requirement, or says something to the effect of requiring some thickness of an insulating material "or equivalent" then you will need something else instead of, or in addition to the flagstone. Flagstone is non-combustible, but it has negligible value as an insulator, so you would probably need additional material of some sort under it.
If the manual says only that the hearth must be made from "Non-Combustible material" then you can use the flagstone as long as it has no breaks in it that would let an ember potentially reach a combustible floor under it. (If it has cracks, you can put a layer of Durock under the flagstone to meet the non-interupted material requirement.
If you look in the Wiki, you will find an article on hearth construction that goes into more detail.
If you aren't sure, post a quote of the language in the manual and we can help translate.
(Note that many here consider Vogelzang stoves to be poor, possibly dangerous, quality. You might be well advised to consider trying to seriously exceed any minimum requirements in the VZ manual)
Gooserider
backpack09
Minister of Fire
That Volgezang is not a Listed stove. I do not know why Lowes insists on trying to sell them. I looked into them as a small stove to heat my living room, but the offsets that are required put the stove in the middle of the room. And when I talked to my building inspector, they said only "Listed" stoves can legally be installed indoors.
Best advice I can give you, is to return the stove. As an inspector I can't advise how to install an unlisted stove or be any part of advising installing a death trap
I will tell you to program in the fire dept's number in your speed dial option
When you get that stove cranking remember about the imported no quality control thin
crap castings containing that fire.When they crack you have very little time to plan an escape route or procedures, so plan well in advance. Purchase a power fire extinguisher.
Do not use liquid or water. If the casting has not already blown apart ,the liquid will surely finish the job
When reading the manual note this stove is note UL listed. Translation you just bought a cheap piece of junk that can't be installed within a dwelling. No permit can be issued .
You are on you own to illegally install this death trap And don't expect full coverage from you homeowners insurance co. Their investigators will find you installed an unlisted ,
non U L approved, non permitted stove.
Id wish you luck, but the only luck I wish, is that you heed the warnings and come to your senses for your sake and your families
I will tell you to program in the fire dept's number in your speed dial option
When you get that stove cranking remember about the imported no quality control thin
crap castings containing that fire.When they crack you have very little time to plan an escape route or procedures, so plan well in advance. Purchase a power fire extinguisher.
Do not use liquid or water. If the casting has not already blown apart ,the liquid will surely finish the job
When reading the manual note this stove is note UL listed. Translation you just bought a cheap piece of junk that can't be installed within a dwelling. No permit can be issued .
You are on you own to illegally install this death trap And don't expect full coverage from you homeowners insurance co. Their investigators will find you installed an unlisted ,
non U L approved, non permitted stove.
Id wish you luck, but the only luck I wish, is that you heed the warnings and come to your senses for your sake and your families
thechimneysweep
Minister of Fire
Elk, quit beating around the bush. I don't see any reason you should continue to sugar-coat your feelings about Vogelzang any longer: repressing your true opinion can only lead to ulcers, alcoholism or worse as years go by. Out with it, man!
To answer ROYJ24's question, the Vogelzang Boxwood has a pretty interesting floor protection requirement, unless you have a dirt floor, a poured cement floor, or a solid masonry floor. If I read the manual correctly, floor protection for a regular combustible floor must be a manufactured, UL listed pad (Vogelzang recommends Hy-C or Imperial Model UL 3654BK hearth pads, or the equivalent). This requirement would seem to put flagstone off the menu.
To answer ROYJ24's question, the Vogelzang Boxwood has a pretty interesting floor protection requirement, unless you have a dirt floor, a poured cement floor, or a solid masonry floor. If I read the manual correctly, floor protection for a regular combustible floor must be a manufactured, UL listed pad (Vogelzang recommends Hy-C or Imperial Model UL 3654BK hearth pads, or the equivalent). This requirement would seem to put flagstone off the menu.
stoveguy2esw
Minister of Fire
DAYUM elk
love your flair for understatement lol.
i agree though, its not a very impressive stove. personally i wouldnt feel safe with one heating my back yard much less have it in my house.
love your flair for understatement lol.i agree though, its not a very impressive stove. personally i wouldnt feel safe with one heating my back yard much less have it in my house.
njtomatoguy
Feeling the Heat
Tell us your reason for buying that particular stove, and maybe we can help with a better suggestion.
If it is strictly the price, look for a used stove on E-Bay or Craigslist.
Or,
Check out CFM at Lowes.
Reasonably priced stove, meets my expectations, and won't make the guys on this board or your Homeowners Ins. Co. twitch and have cold sweats at night.
Hope this helps,
Bob
If it is strictly the price, look for a used stove on E-Bay or Craigslist.
Or,
Check out CFM at Lowes.
Reasonably priced stove, meets my expectations, and won't make the guys on this board or your Homeowners Ins. Co. twitch and have cold sweats at night.
Hope this helps,
Bob
Woodsroad
Member
I was looking at these stoves in the most recent Northern catalog. Tempting prices...
Seems to me you can still do better on Craigs List and the local shopper.
These stoves are going to show their true value when they burn down a structure and insurance will not pay....
Seems to me you can still do better on Craigs List and the local shopper.
These stoves are going to show their true value when they burn down a structure and insurance will not pay....
Gooserider
Mod Emeritus
ROYJ24 said:
Same answer as above applies - read the manual for the stove you are considering... Note that most stove makers have their manuals online, so this shouldn't be a big deal.
The other comment is that you may need to look at code some more - there is NO approval for putting ANY sort of wood stove in a garage... The alleged concern is that there is to much risk of igniting gasoline fumes and other potentially flammable liquids and vapors that may be present in a garage.
One can argue the logic of this - stoves are OK in "shops" and it can be hard to say what the difference is between a shop and a garage. Stoves are also OK in basements, where one also can find things like gas appliances and the storage of paints and other potentially problematic substances. However we don't write the rules, we just tell you what they say...
Gooserider
webbie
Seasoned Moderator
ROYJ24 said:
I want to go on the record here as saying that many newer vogelzang stoves are BOTH UL listed and EPA approved - some others are UL listed and EPA exempt. This means they were put through all the tests and passed. If, as Elk says, they are "death traps", then what he is telling us is that all the UL codes, standards and tests related to stoves must be deficient. Either that, or vogelzang is slipping money under the table to some test guy.
I say it is neither. I have looked at the current vogelzang models in the local hardware store and they certainly look as good or better than earlier King, Atlanta and other hardware shop brands. Certainly we would rarely suggest buying their 55 gal. barrel kit, but to suggest a vogelzang EPA UL unit is not as good as a Century or something else like that - well, there is simply no proof of that!
It's easy to dump on something, but I suggest we stop the generalization unless we actually have any experience with the current line. If Lowes and others are selling them, it does prove a couple things - that the company stands behind their products and that the return rate and trouble rate is low.
I lived in tents and shacks in WV and TN many years ago - would have given anything to have even a vogelzang cast iron box stove....instead, we had $25 used Warm Morning coal stoves that we threw tiny chunks into.
NOTE: The boxwood and many of their cast stove are NOT UL or EPA approved, so therefore cannot claim to be equal to or better than listed stoves.
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webbie
Seasoned Moderator
Also, consider the blessing put on these stoves - that is certainly going to out-qualify UL. After all, if our Prez listens to these "higher voices", then they must also be able to do wonders for your living room! Get ready - Bagdad is coming to a rec room near you!
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ROYJ24 said:
I have this stove and it heats my family safely. The only thing I can say about it is the firebox is a bit small for all night burns. Honestly, I shouldn't complain about it one bit. For the price it can't be beat.
You should still look at the manual to make sure your flagstone will satisfy the codes.
Matt
[
We are talking about the stove mentioned in the post ,which happens to be the BX26. It states in its manual that it is not UL approved
All the other conjecture Web spouts, does not apply to this particular stove or the post in general
tested to any standard with out the standard 's approval is misleading false advertising I can tell I have taken a test but wht I not saying is if I passed the test I was tested to
The epa exemption is an air ratio issue or including a cooking plate to skirt existing regulations there is a loop hole But the stove still has to have a full compliance and approval by
UL The testing may not be done by UL but to UL standards and submitted to UL for approval At that point UL will review the testing data and grant approval.
Again testing to ul standards is meaningless without approval.
As for models that are fully listed and approved the ones not being discussed here IT is purely conjecture on Web part as to how I feel or think about those models or the UL /EPA standards
To me, I think Web is trying to bait me or just trolling today. One would think our distinguished Webmaster, has better things to do, than to be a troll on his own forum
elkimmeg said:
Ah what a short memory. Third party testing labs are certified by UL but they do NOT submit individual test results to UL for "approval". Show me UL approval for just one stove tested by Warnock or Omni to UL standards.
webbie
Seasoned Moderator
Elk, I am not baiting - I can show many threads here where the brand name was mentioned without a model, and folks stated "death trap". While that may not have been your intention, I'm afraid the general board population has not been able to make the distinction - and that is unfair to Vogelzang.
The V stoves which are tested are Warnock Hersey -- listed to UL 1482, etc - as I'm certain anyone familiar with building materials can verify, the WH name is as good as gold.
In other words, the safety testing of those V stoves is every bit as good as the hundreds of other stoves tested by WH, brands which include Englander and Vermont Castings and MANY others.
"Most wood stoves, manufactured by under the brand of Vermont Castings are safety tested and certified by Warnock Hersey International (WH) a division of Intertek ETL Semco, also one of the largest safety testing organizations in the world."
So, again, not trolling just facts. I agree that the mentioned stove model is not UL listed. As to whether it is legal to install, that is up to the jurisdiction (IMHO) and insurance company - but the best course of action is to only install listed products where there is a choice.
I know I am taking some of the fun out of V-bashing, but who knows? They might just hire a good designer and come up with some top-notch products someday......and I have rarely heard complaints from the users as it is. (OK, BB, I know you will claim that V users are unlikely to be able to spell or have internet access)
The V stoves which are tested are Warnock Hersey -- listed to UL 1482, etc - as I'm certain anyone familiar with building materials can verify, the WH name is as good as gold.
In other words, the safety testing of those V stoves is every bit as good as the hundreds of other stoves tested by WH, brands which include Englander and Vermont Castings and MANY others.
"Most wood stoves, manufactured by under the brand of Vermont Castings are safety tested and certified by Warnock Hersey International (WH) a division of Intertek ETL Semco, also one of the largest safety testing organizations in the world."
So, again, not trolling just facts. I agree that the mentioned stove model is not UL listed. As to whether it is legal to install, that is up to the jurisdiction (IMHO) and insurance company - but the best course of action is to only install listed products where there is a choice.
I know I am taking some of the fun out of V-bashing, but who knows? They might just hire a good designer and come up with some top-notch products someday......and I have rarely heard complaints from the users as it is. (OK, BB, I know you will claim that V users are unlikely to be able to spell or have internet access)
Webmaster said:(OK, BB, I know you will claim that V users are unlikely to be able to spell or have internet access)
Not so Craig. I have periodically pointed up the existence of of safety and EPA tested VZ stoves. In fact in the last post about them I made the statement that they made several stoves that I would load and go up and go to bed. I have looked at the tested/rated stoves at a couple of stores and they appear to be well constructed value stoves.
They sell millions of stoves and I do not recall one poster in this Forum dropping in to complain about them. That actually owns one that is.
Interestingly, this blessed little Vogelzang was the first thing that caught my eye at lowes when I was looking for a workshop stove...the price was right, under $200.00. (actually, Northern Tool sells them for $114.00). But after I downloaded the manual and started looking at the footprint and the required clearances, I decided I just wasn't willing to devote so much of the available floorspace in my little shop to the stove. I was also a bit concerned about just what it was about this stove that made it so affordable. I've learned the lesson more times than I want to recall that you really do typically get what you pay for.
Also on the floor at Lowes was the little CFM stove, which is what I bought. More than twice the price of the Vogelzang, but after reading the manual and thinking about the installation, I decided it was a much better fit and I wouldn't always be worried about quality of manufature/materials.
The CFM proudly displays the expected sticker on the back of the heat shield, and looks pretty well put together. I'm pleased with my decision...albeit the hearth and rear wall aren't yet built, so I've yet to fire the stove. Just ordered the required stovepipe today, in fact...going with 22 ga. welded single wall to get from the stove up to the installed DuraVent chimney. Getting cold here in Central Oregon, could see a dusting of snow overnight tonight.
For our house, the LoPi Liberty still is looking like a front-running contender.
Also on the floor at Lowes was the little CFM stove, which is what I bought. More than twice the price of the Vogelzang, but after reading the manual and thinking about the installation, I decided it was a much better fit and I wouldn't always be worried about quality of manufature/materials.
The CFM proudly displays the expected sticker on the back of the heat shield, and looks pretty well put together. I'm pleased with my decision...albeit the hearth and rear wall aren't yet built, so I've yet to fire the stove. Just ordered the required stovepipe today, in fact...going with 22 ga. welded single wall to get from the stove up to the installed DuraVent chimney. Getting cold here in Central Oregon, could see a dusting of snow overnight tonight.
For our house, the LoPi Liberty still is looking like a front-running contender.
webbie
Seasoned Moderator
I have to say that I am somewhat impressed with some of the new Dutchwests and other CFM stuff......sort of a funny turn of events that will happen if the Dutches end up outlasting the "premiums"........because, as we will all find out soon in the Podcasts......the first Dutches were of horrible quality and VC bought the company, which drove VC into the poorhouse (and the founder escaped with $1.00). Since that time, I think we have had three generations of DW......with the current ones looking more like Efel heavy duty cast iron stoves.
Ah, what comes around, goes around. I have some harbor freight tools that do the job quite nicely which I would not use in a high production setting, but are heaven-sent (take that, Vogelzang) for the person who needs them.....
As they say, there are many arses for many seats.
Ah, what comes around, goes around. I have some harbor freight tools that do the job quite nicely which I would not use in a high production setting, but are heaven-sent (take that, Vogelzang) for the person who needs them.....
As they say, there are many arses for many seats.
webbie
Seasoned Moderator
BrotherBart said:
Well, I guess you proved my point about there now being internet access in Kentucky and Alabama. Either that, or they are too busy searching google images for "Dolly Parton Naked".
Hardy har har......
The CFM 27000 stove we installed in the donor program I think all of us were quite impressed with the quality ,for an economy stove This one also included a 3 speed blower
I also have to say I examined the Englanders and almost purchased it at that same sale but it was $25 more Both the century and englander appear to be about the same quality and designs on the smaller stoves.
So far the only Vogalzang stove I have seen are the cheap un listed box types # times I was doing the wrong inspection the type when things did not go right.
the ones the fire dept called me to investigate Hard to support a product line when one see the damage caused up close and personal. Like I knew the owners.
I can't say for sure how they split open whether the FD use liquid or just too much heat in that fire box. I can tell you I saw inconsistent cast thisknesses and air pocket flaws in the castings
Now if Vog wants to get me a labeled and listed EPA certified stove for examining and evaluation then on to the donor program. I can move either one of mine and place theirs in operations
So Web if you have a connection there I'm receptive
I also have to say I examined the Englanders and almost purchased it at that same sale but it was $25 more Both the century and englander appear to be about the same quality and designs on the smaller stoves.
So far the only Vogalzang stove I have seen are the cheap un listed box types # times I was doing the wrong inspection the type when things did not go right.
the ones the fire dept called me to investigate Hard to support a product line when one see the damage caused up close and personal. Like I knew the owners.
I can't say for sure how they split open whether the FD use liquid or just too much heat in that fire box. I can tell you I saw inconsistent cast thisknesses and air pocket flaws in the castings
Now if Vog wants to get me a labeled and listed EPA certified stove for examining and evaluation then on to the donor program. I can move either one of mine and place theirs in operations
So Web if you have a connection there I'm receptive
njtomatoguy
Feeling the Heat
Just a side note... Whatever stove you choose the wall between the "rec room " and garage will have to be 1 hour fire rated.
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