Wood Stove Placement

[bo_knows]

First off, since this is my first post, let me say that this forum has been a great help to me so far. I recently moved into a house with 2 fireplaces, and a lot of chimney issues that we're looking to repair, and this place has been a wealth of knowledge.

We've got some water damage in our flue and bricks at the top of the chimney, so we're going to have some repairs done soon. 1 of the fireplaces is really dated, and it got me to thinking about putting in a wood stove to gain a new heat source.

Just from a couple of weeks of reading this forum, I know that this question is beaten to death (and I frequent a lot of forums. I know the questions that get asked a ton are annoying)... BUT... I come bearing details to back up my question.

Question: What floor should I put a wood stove on for heat?

Details: In the attached picture (I hear you all like pictures), I did a quick and dirty sketch of my house layout (not to scale. I am not an artist. etc).

• This is a 2 level house, built into a hill, and the main entrance is what traditionally might be the basement. It has a rec room with 1 fireplace, 1 bedroom, and the utility room. The top level is where all the main living is. Basement rec room would be used daily by kids, basement office would be used daily by me and/or wife for work.
• Home is ~2800 sqft
  
• Basement rec room has large french doors, which open to the foyer where the stairs run up to the main level
• "Basement" is insulated, as it is not fully below grade
  
• Wood would be stored in the back yard, which is better accessed from the top level via the kitchen door
• Gas furnace (not sure if relevant)
  
• Basement rec room fireplace is dated, while upstairs one is more modern.
• 2 chimney guys who gave us quotes both suggested a wood stove install in the basement rec room, for whatever reason.
• I think that I'd probably miss the ambiance of the fire if it was in the basement
• We're thinking of an insert like the Regency CI2600, though I am worried about maintaining a catalytic system as a newbie.

I feel like it's a no-brainer that we do it in the top level where all the main living is, but I'm sure that would make the basement rec room and office very cold (and we would be using those rooms daily).

Thoughts?

 

[Grisu]

Welcome!

That's a tough layout to heat from just one spot. You can install the insert downstairs and hope that some of the heat travels around in the basement and up the stairs. A small fan placed on the ground in the foyer blowing cold air into the rec room may help. If you install it upstairs you will need to heat the basement by other means. A mid-size insert upstairs may then be enough. Some random points:

Are you ok with a hot insert in the same room as your kids?
How tall is the chimney of the upstairs fireplace? Most inserts require at least 15 ft of flue.
You could have an ambiance fire in the upstairs fireplace without an insert (although it certainly will feel like a waste of wood).
Would you actually like to go up and feed the insert during the day when you are really spending most of your time downstairs?

Here is a long thread about the CI2600: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads...-ci2600-fireplace-insert-risky-costly.132252/
Reviews have been mixed so far. It's a newer model and Regency has done some changes that seem to have improved the burn. Still, not sure if there are not easier to operate inserts out there. The Regency i3100 is a proven performer, same for the Pacific Energy Summit, Lopi Freedom, Quadrafire 5100i,or BlazeKing Princess to name a few other large inserts.

Make sure to get a full, insulated liner and a block-of plate installed: https://www.hearth.com/talk/wiki/make-a-damper-sealing-block-off-plate/

How is your wood supply? Modern stoves need wood with an internal moisture content of less than 20%. That usually requires the wood being split and stacked with lots of wind and sun exposure for one to three years depending on the species and drying conditions.

 

[bo_knows]

Are you ok with a hot insert in the same room as your kids?

A friend of mine mentioned this. I mean, with a child gate placed around it, I don't see much of an issue. Barring the kids scaling the gate when we're not there, would there be anything else to consider?

How tall is the chimney of the upstairs fireplace? Most inserts require at least 15 ft of flue.

Interesting. I don't have the estimate in front of me, but I remember the guy mentioning that it was a relatively short chimney. For some reason I'm thinking I remember 11ft for the top and 16ft for the bottom. Does that make sense?

You could have an ambiance fire in the upstairs fireplace without an insert (although it certainly will feel like a waste of wood).

This is something we considered. Yeah. The fireplace upstairs IS more modern, as-is. After reading all the forum posts here, I almost feel bad having a "for-show only" fireplace.

Would you actually like to go up and feed the insert during the day when you are really spending most of your time downstairs?

I wouldn't say we spend most of the time downstairs. It's mostly upstairs, but the downstairs is used daily. Our 3yr old will play in the rec room for at least an hour, and one of us will be in the office for 2-4hrs total during the day.

Here is a long thread about the CI2600: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads...-ci2600-fireplace-insert-risky-costly.132252/
Reviews have been mixed so far. It's a newer model and Regency has done some changes that seem to have improved the burn. Still, not sure if there are not easier to operate inserts out there. The Regency i3100 is a proven performer, same for the Pacific Energy Summit, Lopi Freedom, Quadrafire 5100i,or BlazeKing Princess to name a few other large inserts.

I'll look into those other models. Thanks!

Make sure to get a full, insulated liner and a block-of plate installed: https://www.hearth.com/talk/wiki/make-a-damper-sealing-block-off-plate/

I'm not much of a DIY'er. Is this something that typical stove installers can do?

How is your wood supply? Modern stoves need wood with an internal moisture content of less than 20%. That usually requires the wood being split and stacked with lots of wind and sun exposure for one to three years depending on the species and drying conditions.

Nearly non-existant. I assume I'd have to buy an expensive stock of kiln-dried wood for this upcoming winter, and get some regular seasoned wood to sit around a little longer.

 

[Andy S.]

Wow. That's a unique layout. Looks like a neat house. I'd go with the "basement" install. I think you'll be able to distribute the heat well with the stairs in the center of the house.

 

[bo_knows]

Wow. That's a unique layout. Looks like a neat house. I'd go with the "basement" install. I think you'll be able to distribute the heat well with the stairs in the center of the house.

Yeah, the layout is similar to "split-foyer" homes, but due to the hill it is built into, the main entrance is at the bottom level... not split. Plus, on the top floor, that office/den used to be a bedroom. They opened it up and added on an addition (those 2 bedrooms above it).

The basement install IS looking more enticing. I just need to figure out if a good baby gate around the insert is good enough for safety.

 

[Grisu]

Look for something like this: http://www.amazon.com/KidCo-G3100-AutoClose-HearthGate-Black/dp/B00DQCESRU
After watching how much respect my kids have of the hot stove I don't think it will be much of a problem. However, there are a lot of parents that see it different. Nevertheless, in such a playroom I would be careful with toys suddenly landing too close to the stove. A hearth gate may not prevent that.

I wouldn't say we spend most of the time downstairs. It's mostly upstairs, but the downstairs is used daily. Our 3yr old will play in the rec room for at least an hour, and one of us will be in the office for 2-4hrs total during the day.

Ok, that sounds different. From your first post I had the impression you would spend most of the daytime downstairs. Putting the insert upstairs would make more sense then. However, 11 ft is short. Your chimney would probably need some class A on top.

I'm not much of a DIY'er. Is this something that typical stove installers can do?

Most installers would probably tell you that stuffing some insulation in the damper area will be sufficient. Insist on the plate. It will make a difference.

Nearly non-existant. I assume I'd have to buy an expensive stock of kiln-dried wood for this upcoming winter, and get some regular seasoned wood to sit around a little longer.

Buy some cords of green wood now and let that start drying. That way it should be good for next year's winter. In addition to kiln-dried wood you can also try the compressed wood logs like BioBricks, Envi-blocks etc. Given the some areas had fuel shortages last winter I would look for that soon.

 

[Jay106n]

I'm far from any kind of expert, but I would say 1st floor would be your best bet. Could you install some sort of register opening in the 1st floor ceiling leading to the 2nd level to increase airflow? Add a fan and you can get some major airflow. I have a 1ftx1ft square register opening in my basement ceiling that allows warm air to flow upstairs to the main living area.

The only real issue I see is the heat from the basement traveling alllllll the way to the bedrooms on the 2nd level, especially in a 2800 sqft layout. Is the stove primary heat or supplemental to the furnace?

 

[bo_knows]

I'm far from any kind of expert, but I would say 1st floor would be your best bet. Could you install some sort of register opening in the 1st floor ceiling leading to the 2nd level to increase airflow? Add a fan and you can get some major airflow. I have a 1ftx1ft square register opening in my basement ceiling that allows warm air to flow upstairs to the main living area.

The only real issue I see is the heat from the basement traveling alllllll the way to the bedrooms on the 2nd level, especially in a 2800 sqft layout. Is the stove primary heat or supplemental to the furnace?

I would say that I would want to try to make the stove the primary, but I'm not opposed to having the furnace run. I could install a register, I suppose, but I got the general impression around here that it doesn't do much.

 

[bo_knows]

Ok, that sounds different. From your first post I had the impression you would spend most of the daytime downstairs. Putting the insert upstairs would make more sense then. However, 11 ft is short. Your chimney would probably need some class A on top.

class A what? Do you mean some sort of extension?

 

[Grisu]

Class A chimney pipe. Such as this: http://www.woodlanddirect.com/Chimney/Class-A-Double-Wall/?state=13748|13598
Your installer would need a connector to attach the liner to the class A pipe. He may need to call the manufacturer to ask for the right part. That point is probably moot if you decide to install the insert downstairs.

 

[bo_knows]

Class A chimney pipe. Such as this: http://www.woodlanddirect.com/Chimney/Class-A-Double-Wall/?state=13748|13598
Your installer would need a connector to attach the liner to the class A pipe. He may need to call the manufacturer to ask for the right part. That point is probably moot if you decide to install the insert downstairs.

Ah, I see. Is the minimum height different for cat vs. not-cat?

 

[Jay106n]

I would say that I would want to try to make the stove the primary, but I'm not opposed to having the furnace run. I could install a register, I suppose, but I got the general impression around here that it doesn't do much.

You are going to need an up and down airflow. (Warm up and cold down) A register can assist with this flow with a fan by blowing the cold air down towards the stove to be heated. Otherwise you will be relying on your stairway to do all the mixed airflow. That's my logic at least.

 

[Andy S.]

I would say that I would want to try to make the stove the primary, but I'm not opposed to having the furnace run. I could install a register, I suppose, but I got the general impression around here that it doesn't do much.

While some have had great results, I've had a very poor experience with registers to move heat upstairs. I tried it with my pellet stove which is installed on the first floor at the end of the house. I ended up with two holes in the floor and ceiling (one for supply and one for return) that do next to nothing to move heat. The reason I feel you'll do well from the first floor is your centrally located stairs and the double doors coming out of the potential stove room. I did the toilet paper test (and even enjoyed a few cigars under the same pretense) to test flow out of my stove room (single door) to the centrally-located stairs in my place and it was dramatic. Cold air is rushing down the stairs towards the stove near floor level and warm air is rushing up to the 2nd floor near shoulder level. Adding a box fan on the floor (low setting) blowing into the stove room dramatically increases the air transfer. I think the quality of the insulation upstairs will be an important factor for you but at a minimum you'll be able to significantly reduce the use of the furnace.

 

[begreen]

This will be a challenge to evenly with a wood stove. Based on the layout and described house activities I would probably start out with a decent sized insert or freestanding stove in the basement. Registers can be put in to help convect the hot air upstairs. Their size and placement will affect their efficiency. If they are placed on the fireplace end in the livingroom then heat will rise through them and cooler air will return down the stairs and back to the rec room. They will need fusible link dampers for safety. You may need a wall cavity fan to improve warming of the gym/office area.

 

[bo_knows]

This will be a challenge to evenly with a wood stove. Based on the layout and described house activities I would probably start out with a decent sized insert or freestanding stove in the basement. Registers can be put in to help convect the hot air upstairs. Their size and placement will affect their efficiency. If they are placed on the fireplace end in the livingroom then heat will rise through them and cooler air will return down the stairs and back to the rec room. They will need fusible link dampers for safety. You may need a wall cavity fan to improve warming of the gym/office area.

Yeah. I think we'll be doing an insert either way. Sounds like the best option is to install one in the lower level, and see how it does in the first winter. Then we can re-assess registers and whatnot.

I'm not familiar with the term "fusible link dampers"... can you explain?

 

[begreen]

Fire Dampers are typically intended to be used when passing through a fire rated barrier (walls, partitions, floors). The trigger mechanism is a heat fusible link that when activated, impedes the migration of high temperatures into and through the duct system or registers.

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads...at-and-circulation.118956/page-3#post-1596896

 

[bo_knows]

Most installers would probably tell you that stuffing some insulation in the damper area will be sufficient. Insist on the plate. It will make a difference.

I got the following info from one of the installers I'm considering. Sounds pretty pricey for what it is. Thoughts?

I Can do a block off plate, but I generally stuff that area very densely with ceramic wool and that stops any ambient heat just as well. Block off plates are immensely difficult to install as the liner needs free room to move when I am centering the stove and installing the surround. They can add an additional 4 hours to a project to get correct and as such I only install them when we're pouring a vermiculite insulation product. The size of your flue will allow for a wrapped liner as opposed to pouring insulation, and packing the "throat" of the damper around the liner will suffice. Considering the time it generally takes to get right it would add an additional $900 to the project should you choose that option.

 

[begreen]

Methinks the 4 hrs of labor is an exaggeration. Typically one can install a block-off plate in an hour or two once they have the materials on hand. Stuffing the damper area with insulation will help. You could try it out for a season and see what you think.

 

[bo_knows]

Methinks the 4 hrs of labor is an exaggeration. Typically one can install a block-off plate in an hour or two once they have the materials on hand. Stuffing the damper area with insulation will help. You could try it out for a season and see what you think.

It is easy to take your insert out of the fireplace cavity to do this? I was under the impression that they seal it to the fireplace somehow... but I suppose they must not.

 

[begreen]

They no longer seal the insert surround. That was for old slammer installations that had no direct connection to the chimney. Easy is a relative term though depending on how tight the fit is, access to the flue collar, experience, etc.. If there is a lot of room to work in, then yes, it's relatively easy. It helps to lay down a sheet of metal on the hearth for the insert to slide on.

 

[bo_knows]

Rather than start a whole new thread, I figured I'd ressurrect this one, since it has my floorplan and details.

Finally looking to finish chimney repairs and pull the trigger on a wood stove. The front-runners are an FPX Large Hybrid ($3800) or a Kodiak 1700 ($2200). Those prices don't include the installation, but I'm trying to figure out a couple things:

1) Is the extra price worth the larger firebox of the FPX (3.0cu/ft vs 2.5cu/ft)?
2) Even if it is worth it, would a larger fire box put out TOO much heat for the basement room that it will be residing in? Would it just be too warm to be in that room, or would it be fine as long as we moved the air?

Another possible consideration: I'm on just shy of a quarter acre, so I don't have a huge place to put wood. I think, at best, I could do a 4-cord shed (2 cords for this winter, 2 drying out for next?).

 

[Grisu]

1. The actual difference in size between the units may not be that much. The firebox of the FPX is rather shallow and the walls slant inwards. You may not be able to load much more wood there than in the Enviro 1700. If you can look at them in the showroom I would recommend to measure the fireboxes. Manufacturers' specs and actual usable firebox size can be quite different.

2. You can always adjust the heat output by loading less wood but at the expense of burn time.

3. Put up the wood for drying outside, raised from the ground, and top covered. The more sun and wind it gets the faster it will dry. In the fall you will move it to the shed. However, 2 cords are not that much for regular burning and relatively large inserts. Maybe you want to buy a ton of compressed bricks and store those in the basement/garage to add that to the wood?

 

[bo_knows]

1. The actual difference in size between the units may not be that much. The firebox of the FPX is rather shallow and the walls slant inwards. You may not be able to load much more wood there than in the Enviro 1700. If you can look at them in the showroom I would recommend to measure the fireboxes. Manufacturers' specs and actual usable firebox size can be quite different.

Interesting. Seems like it might be worth sticking with the Kodiak. Another point that I didn't mention, is that the guys doing my chimney repairs are only dealers for a couple different brands of stoves. They can sell me the Kodiak 1700, but not the FPX. I'd have to get a separate stove installer to do the FPX, which has its own issues I suppose.

3. Put up the wood for drying outside, raised from the ground, and top covered. The more sun and wind it gets the faster it will dry. In the fall you will move it to the shed. However, 2 cords are not that much for regular burning and relatively large inserts. Maybe you want to buy a ton of compressed bricks and store those in the basement/garage to add that to the wood?

Yeah, everything I read says I should probably have more like 4 cords of wood per season. If I bought 4 cords of "seasoned" wood every Spring to fill my shed to the brim, would it be ok to burn by November/December? Everyone on here seems to err on the side of caution with seasoning wood.

 

[Grisu]

Is your shed open to the sides and gets lots of sun and wind? If not, I would not put the wood in there before fall.

As for the drying: Ash and most softwoods have a chance to dry sufficiently over one summer when stacked in a good spot. The question is if you can find a firewood seller that sells you only those.

 

[bo_knows]

Is your shed open to the sides and gets lots of sun and wind? If not, I would not put the wood in there before fall.

This is a yet-to-be-built shed, so I can build it however I want

As for the drying: Ash and most softwoods have a chance to dry sufficiently over one summer when stacked in a good spot. The question is if you can find a firewood seller that sells you only those.

A cursory check of angieslist shows that oak and hickory are the most popular. Some of the places claim their wood has been seasoned 8-9 months on average, but who knows.