Wood Stove suggestions?

[Osageguy]

I'm in the midst of a DIY remodel involving my current woodstove. The stove pulled out was Ember Hearth vintage around 70s/80s? I could not find any information about it from a google search. It's a steel monster (30.5 x 24"). It did a good to overkill job of heating most of our 2400 square foot home. One section of our house is essentially closed off now (about 600 sq ft) and will later be vented near the baseboards to allow for some better heat transfer. The Ember Hearth's good and bad points are:

Good: big, high output of heat could handle burning Osage Orange.
Bad: big, high output of heat (got inside house temps to 90 degrees when outside was in the thirties), ugly, polluting.

I was hoping someone knew something more about this stove to help me compare some of the BTU numbers from this stove with more modern stoves to make a good choice of a new stove.

Rest of the home layout: 1100 square feet of the house is open. Another 700 square feet upstairs gets heated easily.

Looking for some product suggestions also. I don't want steel as it cooks out our living area. So far, I like Hearthstone's Mansfield. I also like Lopi's Leyden based on it's design features and looks but don't know if it will heat our 2400 square feet. I'd appreicate any information/experience.

Thank you.

 

[begreen]

Welcome, OS. Sounds like you have a lot of options. I am confused about the heating area. You say that 600 sq ft is now closed off. If so are you trying to heat 2400 sq ft or 1800 sq ft. Can you post a picture of the current installation?

You're lucky to be burning osage, good hardwood. The Hearthstone would work well for you. But FWIW, I wouldn't shy away from a steel stove. A good modern steel stove is going to burn way cleaner and be much easier to regulate than your old smoke dragon.

It would help to know more about the house. How large is the area that the stove is installed in? Is the floor plan open with little restriction or mostly closed off areas?

 

[Gooserider]

Can you get a rough estimate of the firebox volume on the smoke dragon? It sounds like it was big on the outside, but how much wood could you cram into it, or perhaps more usefully, how much did you typically load it with when you needed a good fire?

The number generally used in comparing a new EPA stove to a smoke dragon is that the new stoves are about 1/3 more efficient. You can "use" that 1/3 different ways - more heat from the same wood volume, same heat with less wood, etc. - given that you thought the old stove was too hot, probably the latter in your case... However it also gives a pointer to the size firebox you should look for in the new stove.

If you want a good burn time, you probably want a firebox with at least a 2.0 - 2.5 cubic foot volume. After that, I would say that you probably want a firebox with a smaller volume than the smoke dragon, but not more than a third smaller, possibly a bit more in your case. I.E. if your smoke dragon held 4.0 cf, I'd probably want a replacement with a 3 cf volume, maybe a bit more. Remember that it is better to go a bit big on the stove size and run it at 2/3 to 3/4 of capacity than it is to get a stove that's so small you have to run it near max output most of the time. The larger stove will last better, and also have the reserve you need for the occasional REALLY cold night.

Gooserider

 

[begreen]

Agreed, if the house is in the 90's it's because too big a fire was built. When it's in the 30's outside, burn smaller fires and let them go out.

 

[Sandor]

After burning with Soapstone, I would not consider going back to steel as my main burning appliance. If I had a room I occasionally heated, I would not consider Soapstone and would use steel, or more likely, cast iron.

 

[Jags]

Osageguy, welcome to the forum. I think Sandor has hit on something that you may want to consider. If you are a 24/7 type of burn guy, a soapstone stove may have some advantages for you. It is sometimes referred to as a softer, gentle heat rather than the steel stove baking your forehead as you walk by.

 

[Osageguy]

Thanks very much for the information so far. I've attached a sketch of our floor plan. There is also a sunroom that cut cut off (bottom of floor plan). The darkened area in blue is the area we have been unable to heat. The rooms were a later addition, having more insulation to include a vapor barrier. The Red oval is the location of our current smoke Dragon. We are talking about punching two vent holes behind the stove along the baseboard to get heat into our back bedroom area.

The upstairs does not have a heating problem.

I've estimated our smoke dragon to be 4.16 cf (accounting for a firebricks to the bottom and along the bottom of the stove).

The hot temps may in part be due to the species of wood: Osage. I've recently learned that it produces an estimated 30.7 million BTU per cord, but I didn't help matters by packing the box on ocassion.

Overnight burns were difficult to achieve on this stove. He had a couple of roars up the flue, which at the time I was puzzled about. I guess my family is lucky be here.

 

[Todd]

I agree with Sandor. If your a serious 24/7 woodburner I also recommend soapstone. With that much sq ft to heat I'd be looking into a stove that has at least a 3 cu ft firebox. The Mansfield would be a good choice and Hearthstone is also coming out with the Equinox this fall that is even bigger. You may want to consider the Woodstock Fireview even though the firebox is less than 3 cu ft, I think a member here (NYSoapstone) heats about the same sq ft as you have with his, and I've read reviews from people that were heating over 2000 sq ft. You have lots of choices out there, look at all of them and ask questions.

It may be tricky to get heat to those back rooms. Fans and vents may work to some degree, but it will definitely not be as warm as the stove room. Try to push the lower level dense cold air out and the lighter warm air will replace it. Think supply/return to get some kind of air circulation going.

 

[webbie]

I think I remember the stove in question - I seem to remember it had a blower?

The firebox size thing is a good idea, then cut some off that considering the newer stove being more efficient.

For instance, if the stove has a firebox size of 4 cubic feet, and is overheating your house as it is, you might want somthing about 2.5 cubic feet. Or, if it is just right, maybe 3 cubic feet.

Another option is a catalytic stove, which can tend to turn lower and have longer burn times - so a larger stove will not overheat you as much, just burn longer. See Blaze King, Woodstock Soapstone, or Vermont Castings (is the Encore still cat?)

 

[elkimmeg]

Craig some Dutch west are still cats the IntrepidI II, Encore, and Defiants, still have cat versions

Fire box sizea are Intrepid 1.25 Good 6 hour burn , Encore is 2.2 Good 8 hour burn, and the Defiant is like 3.2 cu ft good 10+ hour burn

Last year the non Cat Intrepid was dropped. It under preformed in comparison the the Cat Version.

If a 4.2 fire box is having a hard time burning threw the night . I willing to bet that stove is being overfired No modern stove can compete withan overfiring stove with that size firebox
the other tell tale sign is 90 degrees in the room Modern stoves burned correctly, are for the long haul producing a decent vollume heat for much longer periods of tyime using less wood


the woosh up the chimney is that old smoke dragon is doing a chimney cleaning act. Be thankfull that was just a woosh that means the old smoke dragon is producing Cresote and the woosh are small chimney fires. Consider this a warning shot for what lies ahead. A modern stove run correctly with good seaconed wood and yearly or bi yearly (Mid heating season) cleaning is the safest way to go. I don't know your venting situation, with what your have indicated, I think it prudent to get it checked out, for your own and familly safety.

You asked for guidence we here are trying to give it to you


Welcome to the Hearth

 

[begreen]

Given the layout, a modern stove will work fine and will be much easier to use safely. You have many choices. Look for one in the 3 cu ft range.

The only thing that probably won't work is the idea of cutting holes in the baseboard. Heat needs a relatively unobstructed, continuous loop (supply loop and return loop) in order to circulate on its own. It will likely take a small fan or a larger opening on the common wall. Be sure to install smoke detectors if they are not already in.

 

[jtp10181]

What if he put in some vent down low with small box fans in them blowing cooler air back towards the stove... from an electronics store or something. And then some vents up high to let the heat go through. Or maybe put the fans in the upper vents? They could probably be run to a switch right there if you can get power to it. Maybe could even do some 12V fans and rig up a battery pack.

Just thinking out loud

 

[Gooserider]

What if he put in some vent down low with small box fans in them blowing cooler air back towards the stove... from an electronics store or something. And then some vents up high to let the heat go through. Or maybe put the fans in the upper vents? They could probably be run to a switch right there if you can get power to it. Maybe could even do some 12V fans and rig up a battery pack.

Just thinking out loud

Well, I suspect that Elk would say that vents are problematic in terms of potential for spreading fire or toxic fumes. But possibly they might be OK if you put a vent or two in the corner away from the stove (maybe one for each room?) near the floor, blowing cold air from the back rooms into the stove room, and leaving doors open for warm replacement air to come from the stove room down the hall into the back rooms. That ought to work reasonably well, and would avoid the concern about having air intakes near the stove. Probably would be best if you made them w/ a fusible link shutter of some sort.

Gooserider

 

[begreen]

I can think of a few schemes that would work, but they would require opening(s) between the rooms. That brings up safety, noise and privacy issues. However, it's doable.

 

[BLAZE KING]

Hi OS for large firebox’s (4.27 cu. ft.) and extremely long burn times up to 40 hours take a look at are King catalytic http://www.blazeking.com/king1107.htm. And yes I have seen one burn for over 40 hours pushing out a good amount of BTU`S. That is always going to be a difficult area to heat no matter what you do.

 

[karl]

Blaze King,

What is the fire box size on the princess insert? Also how much do they cost? I'm about ready to buy a Summit and saw your post. Can you really get a 20 hour burn?

 

[Todd]

Hi OS for large firebox’s (4.27 cu. ft.) and extremely long burn times up to 40 hours take a look at are King catalytic http://www.blazeking.com/king1107.htm. And yes I have seen one burn for over 40 hours pushing out a good amount of BTU`S. That is always going to be a difficult area to heat no matter what you do.

Ok, what do you mean by a "40 hr burn"? Is that to the last burnt up coal or is it til you have a good bed of coals for reloading?

 

[elkimmeg]

Hi OS for large firebox’s (4.27 cu. ft.) and extremely long burn times up to 40 hours take a look at are King catalytic http://www.blazeking.com/king1107.htm. And yes I have seen one burn for over 40 hours pushing out a good amount of BTU`S. That is always going to be a difficult area to heat no matter what you do.

Hey Web this is a blatant pitch for advertising and self promoting his company? I got banned for mentioning VC and never earned one penney fron them. Not on their payroll. When I offered to have Vc advertise on the heearth you refused .Yet when Blaze king shows up you pitch the advertising line? Banned and reprimanded, Now I'm really confused? Please fill us in on your double standard.. I do know VC is the only company that donated a stove to help an aging Vet.

My question to you is ,you going to ban mike from Blaze king, or is your banning only directed at me? If so please explain the double standard

 

[GVA]

Hi OS for large firebox’s (4.27 cu. ft.) and extremely long burn times up to 40 hours take a look at are King catalytic http://www.blazeking.com/king1107.htm. And yes I have seen one burn for over 40 hours pushing out a good amount of BTU`S. That is always going to be a difficult area to heat no matter what you do.

40 hours of burn time....
Sounds like a pellet stove to me....

 

[BrotherBart]

Hi OS for large firebox’s (4.27 cu. ft.) and extremely long burn times up to 40 hours take a look at are King catalytic http://www.blazeking.com/king1107.htm. And yes I have seen one burn for over 40 hours pushing out a good amount of BTU`S. That is always going to be a difficult area to heat no matter what you do.

Ok, what do you mean by a "40 hr burn"? Is that to the last burnt up coal or is it til you have a good bed of coals for reloading?

Roospike did a pretty good analysis of the Blaze King stated burn stats here last winter. Best I remember 90 pounds of wood didn't have enough BTUs in it to sustain much heat that long. Cat or no cat.

Mike at ESW is the only one I ever have seen that admitted banking the the 30-NC for the longest burn he had seen from it.

Banking a fire seems to be a lost art around here these days. Sure does a good job for us after the manse is warmed up.

 

[Osageguy]

Webmaster. You're right about your eariler post. My smoke dragon had a massive blower in the back that required earplugs to run

Todd...can I get more informtion about the Equinox like specs, price and when it's due out? Just curious.

I bounced an idea off of my wife which she was amazingly receptive to: What about putting my future woodstove into an alcove. I've modified my sketch below: The alcove would extend outside onto a concrete slab porch. I could open the side into the bedroom. The distance from the side of the stove to the bedroom wall would be about 65 inches. I was thinking that I could open venting to the bedroom substantially this way. Ideally, I'd like to place a slab of soapstone for the side of the alove facing the bedroom--a local supplier can give me a good discount on a soapstone reinmant. I could use a fan to draw heat from that one side of the alcove. If I looked into doing this, would I seriously compromised heat to the rest of the house with an alcove design? If this is doable, what would anyone recommend regarding insulation and materials?

Thanks,
Osageguy

 

[begreen]

OG, you get an A for creative thinking. What would the alcove dimensions be?

 

[Gooserider]

Assuming that you could make it work in terms of clearances, and that sort of thing, it's possible, although it has the downside of putting two sides of the stove against outside walls, and reducing air circulation to the rest of the house. Not to mention the evils of having an outside chimney. I'd expect that you would need to insulate the heck out of it, and probably would want to have a blower.

Would the bedroom side of the alcove be open to the family room? If so you might also get some complaints from the bedroom about increased noise and lack of privacy. However it is a clever approach.

Gooserider

 

[stoveguy2esw]

What if he put in some vent down low with small box fans in them blowing cooler air back towards the stove... from an electronics store or something. And then some vents up high to let the heat go through. Or maybe put the fans in the upper vents? They could probably be run to a switch right there if you can get power to it. Maybe could even do some 12V fans and rig up a battery pack.

Just thinking out loud

actually , the "return side " down low pushing into the room would create higher pressure (doesnt take much) that will force the lighter air out of the room with the stove as at the same time , it will create a vacuum effect (lower pressure) in the room the air is evacuated from, i personally would try to avoid vents up high on the wall (for code (i think)as well as asthetic reasons) the natural convection currents do not need to be over enhanced. a newer modern epa stove will burn longer durations per fire and provide a more even heat over that duration than the "roast/freeze" you get with an older less easily controlled unit.back to the convection current, the longer heat is made in an even rate , the more momentum is built in the current. assisting this current is very doable , just remember not to "overdo it" even with your layout (which is a bit had to spread heat naturally i must admit, if you pull air out low from the room behind the wall the stove is located on , and push it into the stove room , air is going to migrate back to "fill the void" of the departing air. this will pull the heat through the whole house , not just dump a little into the room directly as the upper wall vent would do, not to mention , the room with that vent would be the only room to benefit from the circulation , the hall and that smaller adjacent room would likely stay cooler.

 

[stoveguy2esw]

Webmaster. You're right about your eariler post. My smoke dragon had a massive blower in the back that required earplugs to run

Todd...can I get more informtion about the Equinox like specs, price and when it's due out? Just curious.

I bounced an idea off of my wife which she was amazingly receptive to: What about putting my future woodstove into an alcove. I've modified my sketch below: The alcove would extend outside onto a concrete slab porch. I could open the side into the bedroom. The distance from the side of the stove to the bedroom wall would be about 65 inches. I was thinking that I could open venting to the bedroom substantially this way. Ideally, I'd like to place a slab of soapstone for the side of the alove facing the bedroom--a local supplier can give me a good discount on a soapstone reinmant. I could use a fan to draw heat from that one side of the alcove. If I looked into doing this, would I seriously compromised heat to the rest of the house with an alcove design? If this is doable, what would anyone recommend regarding insulation and materials?

Thanks,
Osageguy

interesting concept OS, you want to check "alcove clearances" if listed for the unit that would occupy that space. one other thing , the wall between the stove and the bedroom would have to be sealed , as code does not allow a wood burning appliance to be installed in a sleeping room , which opening that alcove up would essentially bring about. the soapstone would allow some heat transfer , i do not believe that it would be sufficient on its own however to heat the room. i may be wrong , but mulling it over i think that it would be a lot of work for a modest gain at best.wasnt a bad idea though OS keep em coming .

EDIT: a vent may be acceptable in your alcove, ELK could answer better than i. i guess "sealed" may have been too strong a word, but it definately cannot be just an open void to the stove bacause of the "sleeping room thing. NOTE TO FORUM: correct me if im wrong on this, i do not have the codebooks in front of me im working on memory here.