We need to replace an old Whitfield Advantage II T - fan is shutting off. Trying to decide if we should continue with a newer pellet stove or move to wood. Although we are in the Redwoods, we are not able to get wood free at this time. We have two small children (8 and 5) and we are all out between the hours of 8 a.m. to 4:00 p.m. We've had power outages in the past, but do not have a back-up generator. We are all electric here - no forced air heat. I've heard that pellets have the option for battery back-up. Harmons are expensive - looking at Lopi and Quadfire for pellet. Have access to Vermont Castings for wood as well. We have 1400 sq feet now - will eventually add on a bedroom to separate the kids. Have a ceiling fan as well. We have a 4" chimney out with a 6" adapter out the ceiling. Friends are all advocating wood, but they all have a secondary heat source (although they rarely use it). My current pellet stove is LOUD - you can hear the auger and the blower, so I try not to put it on unless we HAVE to. Concerns are maintenance of pellet stove vs. practicality of wood with children. Also, not sure of the increased costs of wood with needing a new chimney, etc. Any thoughts?
Wood vs. Pellet Stove - NO OTHER HEAT SOURCE
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TMonter
Minister of Fire
I have two kids currently (18 months & 4 years old) and wood hasn't been a problem.
I'd lean towards wood as the pellet market has been going nuts the past few years. Wood can be cut yourself, but you are always at the mercy of the pellet market. Additionally, a wood stove doesn't require power to operate which is a big bonus.
I'd lean towards wood as the pellet market has been going nuts the past few years. Wood can be cut yourself, but you are always at the mercy of the pellet market. Additionally, a wood stove doesn't require power to operate which is a big bonus.
Thanks for the info on kids. If we do go with a wood stove, what would be the best brand for 1400 sq feet?
TMonter
Minister of Fire
Best brand really depends on preference, features and price.
What kind of layout does your house have?
Something to start looking at:
Quadrafire, Vermont Castings, Englander and Pacific Energy
The next question should be how cold does it get where you live and how much pellets did you burn before?
What kind of layout does your house have?
Something to start looking at:
Quadrafire, Vermont Castings, Englander and Pacific Energy
The next question should be how cold does it get where you live and how much pellets did you burn before?
KeithO
Minister of Fire
Pellets are basically a "commodity fuel". There are only X number of pellet factories out there. They have to truck in the raw materials ($), then potentially chip it ($), dry it (more $) and finally compress it and package it. At this point, one has a pallet full of bags of pellets on the factory dock.
Now the second part of the geographic issue comes to the fore: Where are you relative to the nearest pellet plant ? That distance directly influences cost. Next question: How many places near you actually sell pellets ? The fewer there are, the more the price can be "loaded" after covering the manufacturing cost and initial distribution charges.
That is unfortunately the sad state of affairs. So the price can to a large extent be down to your luck in possibly having a pellet factory within 50 miles where you could purchase and collect your pellets directly. People who have that luck may pay $160/ton, which is just about equivalent to the price for natural gas (at least in my case). For folks who have no NG supply and who may be purchasing propane or 100% electric, pellets at $160/ton would more than likely be 1/2 to 1/3 of the cost of those 2 super expensive fuels. If you are paying $250/ton of pellets, you will save a little, but the monthly cost will still be substantial (about 1 ton/month with our southern michigan climate). If your climate is much milder, it will of course be less.
If I were you, I would check with the local DNR and state forrest offices, since in most cases it is possible to obtain a firewood permit, which allows gathering up to 5 cord per household per year - with strict rules on what you can and can't do of course. Even if you don't do that, there are many ways to buy firewood. You could buy a grapple load ( a truckload of logs which get dumped in the yard - normally 6 cord yield). This is normally the cheapest way. Failing that, you may buy pre-cut and split cordwood. The price depends on availability, type of wood and how long it has been seasoned. Freshly split green wood should be the cheapest, but of course you can't use it this winter. If your'e starting out, you should buy at least enough dry seasoned wood for this season and then close to the end of the heating season, try to get a "deal" on another load of wood for next winter, for which green split wood will be fine.
In my case, I heated last winter with corn, but due to the dramatic price increase in Nov 2006, I really only saved a little money compared to NG. This year, the majority of my heat will be from wood, for which I didn't spend any money at all. I will provide some supplemental heat in the basement with the corn stove, but will only use about 25% of the corn compared to last year since the area heated is quite small. And I have written about my experience with losing power and being unable to run the corn stove unless the generator was running at the same time.
The back up battery systems are quite expensive, on top of the already high price for the corn / pellet stove. And then the final nail in the coffin is the noise from operation. The auger occasionally "cracks" some corn on my stove, which is WAY louder than the feed systems for pellet stoves and on top of that is the sound of the combustion and convection blowers that must run 24/7 if it will be your primary heat source. That is the reason why the corn stove is going into the farthest corner of my basement, since I can't tolerate that noise in our living area 24/7.
Now the second part of the geographic issue comes to the fore: Where are you relative to the nearest pellet plant ? That distance directly influences cost. Next question: How many places near you actually sell pellets ? The fewer there are, the more the price can be "loaded" after covering the manufacturing cost and initial distribution charges.
That is unfortunately the sad state of affairs. So the price can to a large extent be down to your luck in possibly having a pellet factory within 50 miles where you could purchase and collect your pellets directly. People who have that luck may pay $160/ton, which is just about equivalent to the price for natural gas (at least in my case). For folks who have no NG supply and who may be purchasing propane or 100% electric, pellets at $160/ton would more than likely be 1/2 to 1/3 of the cost of those 2 super expensive fuels. If you are paying $250/ton of pellets, you will save a little, but the monthly cost will still be substantial (about 1 ton/month with our southern michigan climate). If your climate is much milder, it will of course be less.
If I were you, I would check with the local DNR and state forrest offices, since in most cases it is possible to obtain a firewood permit, which allows gathering up to 5 cord per household per year - with strict rules on what you can and can't do of course. Even if you don't do that, there are many ways to buy firewood. You could buy a grapple load ( a truckload of logs which get dumped in the yard - normally 6 cord yield). This is normally the cheapest way. Failing that, you may buy pre-cut and split cordwood. The price depends on availability, type of wood and how long it has been seasoned. Freshly split green wood should be the cheapest, but of course you can't use it this winter. If your'e starting out, you should buy at least enough dry seasoned wood for this season and then close to the end of the heating season, try to get a "deal" on another load of wood for next winter, for which green split wood will be fine.
In my case, I heated last winter with corn, but due to the dramatic price increase in Nov 2006, I really only saved a little money compared to NG. This year, the majority of my heat will be from wood, for which I didn't spend any money at all. I will provide some supplemental heat in the basement with the corn stove, but will only use about 25% of the corn compared to last year since the area heated is quite small. And I have written about my experience with losing power and being unable to run the corn stove unless the generator was running at the same time.
The back up battery systems are quite expensive, on top of the already high price for the corn / pellet stove. And then the final nail in the coffin is the noise from operation. The auger occasionally "cracks" some corn on my stove, which is WAY louder than the feed systems for pellet stoves and on top of that is the sound of the combustion and convection blowers that must run 24/7 if it will be your primary heat source. That is the reason why the corn stove is going into the farthest corner of my basement, since I can't tolerate that noise in our living area 24/7.
stoveguy2esw
Minister of Fire
i would have to agree wood may be a better choice as a stand alone heating system , pelle stoves while generally easier to operate especially with modern units with one touch start have advantages in that respect as well as more versitility in controlling heta output, they can be louder (as you already know) and without electricity , they are a card table. wood is a bit more labor intensive , but less maintenance intensive, i grew up wiht wood, and raiised my daughter from birth with a woodstove. it can be done safely with a bit of common sense practices and practical teaching of the children (somthing i firmly believe in even though i had a bad burn incident as a 3 year old child (wasnt a woodstove but involved a campfire)) for that matter , a pellet stove will still have surface temps on the glass for instance that almost rival woodstoves. the biggest part of the decision should be based on availabilit of fuel (wood or pellet) ,lifestyle and standalone ability in the heating unit. wood beats pellet with that not needing power. with a pellet stove i would recommend having a backup , more so than with wood.
Good points! For heating 24/7 in a mild climate, pellets are a good alternative, especially is supply is not a big issue. A pellet stove will go much longer between refills in your climate. And you can turn it down low with no ill effect. Combine that with thermostatic operation. The blackout issue is the same as if you had an oil or gas furnace. It would depend on how frequent and long they are in your area to determine whether this would be an issue. If it is, then wood might be better or perhaps a generator?
But wood is very nice because of the beauty of the flame, potential for low cost fuel and it's quiet. And the deep heat coming from the stove is wonderful.
But wood is very nice because of the beauty of the flame, potential for low cost fuel and it's quiet. And the deep heat coming from the stove is wonderful.
MrGriz
New Member
I would hate to rely on a pellet stove as my only heat source, mainly because of the power outage issue. We have electric only in our home as well, not a gas line on the property, no oil and no LP. The biggest reason I put the wood burning insert in was to save money on the electric bill. A secondary reason was for heat in the event of a power outage. I realize that an insert isn't the optimal heat source without the blower, but I had the fireplace so it seemed logical and easier than a stove.
With the pellet stove you are still dependent on electricity for heat. Granted, you can run it off a battery system or a generator, but those options have their obvious draw backs as well.
If you have to pay for wood or pay for pellets, I would still vote for burning wood. In addition to the power outage issue, from what I see (and read) around here wood prices and supply is much more stable than pellets. That can vary depending on what area you live in, but it seems to hold true in most places. Wood stoves are also quieter than pellet stoves and in my opinion, the flame is much more aesthetically pleasing.
There's no doubt that wood is more work, but I think if it's your only source of heat it's worth it.
With the pellet stove you are still dependent on electricity for heat. Granted, you can run it off a battery system or a generator, but those options have their obvious draw backs as well.
If you have to pay for wood or pay for pellets, I would still vote for burning wood. In addition to the power outage issue, from what I see (and read) around here wood prices and supply is much more stable than pellets. That can vary depending on what area you live in, but it seems to hold true in most places. Wood stoves are also quieter than pellet stoves and in my opinion, the flame is much more aesthetically pleasing.
There's no doubt that wood is more work, but I think if it's your only source of heat it's worth it.
I have both. a pellet in the dining room and wood in the living room. If I only had one it would be the woodstove! roben.
Some things I'd consider:
Pellet Good
ready to heat at a moments notice, easy thermostat control, could be operated/regulated by most anyone - one of the kids, a babysitter, or other person who isn't 100% familiar with wood, a little more 'kid safe' as I don't think the surface of a pellet stove will be nearly as hot as a wood stove, easy storage and minimal work -open bag and pour in.
Pellet Bad
Slave to local pellet prices (but at lest a 40 pound bag of pellets is going to be pretty close to 40 pounds), loss of power means loss of heat unless you buy battery back-up, 'technology' can fail, a little less 'ambiance' compared to wood
Wood Good
Could possibly cut your own with proper permits (cheaper!), heat even if power is out, 'ambiance' of wood, not much to fail besides possibly the blower - but even then you would still get some heat
Wood Bad
Can take time to kindle a fire, build up heat and finally start heating the house, less control over heat (ie no thermostat), will require a bit of experience to keep burning well - might not be the thing for a young kid / sitter, etc to tend to, less kid safe - stove temps can be 600F+ when under full fire, you could be a slave to the local firewood man - may get cheated on the amount of wood unless you are careful and/or he is reputable, If you do cut your own, then you still have to haul and split, more initial expense to take take out your 4" flue and put in 6"
More could probably be added to all these, but only you can decide which trade-offs you're willing to make.
Good Luck
Corey
Pellet Good
ready to heat at a moments notice, easy thermostat control, could be operated/regulated by most anyone - one of the kids, a babysitter, or other person who isn't 100% familiar with wood, a little more 'kid safe' as I don't think the surface of a pellet stove will be nearly as hot as a wood stove, easy storage and minimal work -open bag and pour in.
Pellet Bad
Slave to local pellet prices (but at lest a 40 pound bag of pellets is going to be pretty close to 40 pounds), loss of power means loss of heat unless you buy battery back-up, 'technology' can fail, a little less 'ambiance' compared to wood
Wood Good
Could possibly cut your own with proper permits (cheaper!), heat even if power is out, 'ambiance' of wood, not much to fail besides possibly the blower - but even then you would still get some heat
Wood Bad
Can take time to kindle a fire, build up heat and finally start heating the house, less control over heat (ie no thermostat), will require a bit of experience to keep burning well - might not be the thing for a young kid / sitter, etc to tend to, less kid safe - stove temps can be 600F+ when under full fire, you could be a slave to the local firewood man - may get cheated on the amount of wood unless you are careful and/or he is reputable, If you do cut your own, then you still have to haul and split, more initial expense to take take out your 4" flue and put in 6"
More could probably be added to all these, but only you can decide which trade-offs you're willing to make.
Good Luck
Corey
MrWinkey
New Member
The whole pellet stoves dont work w/o power issue is really not a big deal IMHO. I live pretty far out of town and the longest my power was out for was 4 days. That was a record storm and since then the longest was 1 day. If you have a small generator you can re-charge your batteries.
Plus there is NO point in me staying home through the storm w/o water and I need the generator to fill my water tanks so I might as well re-charge the batteries for the stove at the same time.
http://cgi.ebay.com/APC-Smart-UPS-1...ryZ44963QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
That UPS should protect the stove from power surges and power it for at least 5 hours. More like 10 but it will depend on model and power use. You can buy cheaper ones used at a local 2nd hand store or off e-bay w/o batteries and pick them up local.
Anyways if you just spend 1500-3000 bucks on a stove wouldnt you spend the 200 bucks to protect it from power issues and provide a lil battery backup?
Plus there is NO point in me staying home through the storm w/o water and I need the generator to fill my water tanks so I might as well re-charge the batteries for the stove at the same time.
http://cgi.ebay.com/APC-Smart-UPS-1...ryZ44963QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
That UPS should protect the stove from power surges and power it for at least 5 hours. More like 10 but it will depend on model and power use. You can buy cheaper ones used at a local 2nd hand store or off e-bay w/o batteries and pick them up local.
Anyways if you just spend 1500-3000 bucks on a stove wouldnt you spend the 200 bucks to protect it from power issues and provide a lil battery backup?
Jimbob
Minister of Fire
After reading this thread, I have to ask....How bad are the power outages down there?
Up here in the great white north, we rarely get an outage and if we do, it's usually fixed within a few hours. Most of our power outages occur in the summer.
The town I live in went without HEAT when the nat. gas stopped coming for a day in the dead of winter. Gas stopped flowing very early in the morning and stayed off all day. Our house stayed nice and warm while our neighbours scrambled to find heaters. Hundreds uf utility workers had to come to town to re-light all the pilot lights (or make sure they re-lit themselves) as the gas was turned back on.
Our outdoor thermometer showed -42C, or about -45F that morning.
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/manitoba/story/2004/02/02/mb_stonewall.html
If you wanted a pellet stove, but were concerned about long power outages, just buy a 100 ft. extension cord and a cheap 600 watt gas generator. If needed, you could fire the gen. up outside and run the extension cord thru a slightly open window, or gently close it in the back door, and plug the pellet stove into that until the power came back on.
I have also found that a house will stay above freezing for several hours without heat.
Corey summed up the pros and cons of both wood, and pellet stoves, except the cost of the backup power wouldn't be THAT terribly expensive if you find the gen at a good price. The small generators are cheap around here.
Up here in the great white north, we rarely get an outage and if we do, it's usually fixed within a few hours. Most of our power outages occur in the summer.
The town I live in went without HEAT when the nat. gas stopped coming for a day in the dead of winter. Gas stopped flowing very early in the morning and stayed off all day. Our house stayed nice and warm while our neighbours scrambled to find heaters. Hundreds uf utility workers had to come to town to re-light all the pilot lights (or make sure they re-lit themselves) as the gas was turned back on.
Our outdoor thermometer showed -42C, or about -45F that morning.
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/manitoba/story/2004/02/02/mb_stonewall.html
If you wanted a pellet stove, but were concerned about long power outages, just buy a 100 ft. extension cord and a cheap 600 watt gas generator. If needed, you could fire the gen. up outside and run the extension cord thru a slightly open window, or gently close it in the back door, and plug the pellet stove into that until the power came back on.
I have also found that a house will stay above freezing for several hours without heat.
Corey summed up the pros and cons of both wood, and pellet stoves, except the cost of the backup power wouldn't be THAT terribly expensive if you find the gen at a good price. The small generators are cheap around here.
stoveguy2esw
Minister of Fire
one of the reasons for power outages in my area and south of ere is we tend to get ice storms, which are likely not as prevelant the farther north you go. not saying that it doesnt happen up there but its more frequent here than snow. snow usually doesnt cling to and weigh down power lines or adjacent trees as badly as ice can. this is the usual suspect in my neck of the woods for outages ,and they can last several days if a bad ice storm rolls in.
Same here Mike, not much snow, but several windstorms (over 60 mph) and some ice storms. Last winter we had a few, the longest being 8 days. I love having a woodstove at those times, but I still have to run the generator to save our refrigerated and frozen food.
ok i'm a new guy around here and have a tiny stove compared to alot of these guys. we just bought our first stove and it is a wood burning stove. i originally went looking for a pellet stove but was talked out of it because of the following reasons listed in no real order.
1) pellets. you need to store them somewhere dry, not always an option for everyone. if they get wet then they are no good.
2) then you have the pellet shortage every year. i don't know too much about it but i hear they run low every year.
3) it depends on electric.
4) it has a circut board that makes it run.. i'm sure they are reliable but too much to go wrong there for me..
5) if the thing breaks down for some reason at 1am who is gonna fix it and where are you getting parts?
6) the chance of getting some free pellets are slim to none.
7) the flame is butt ugly. i know it doesn't matter to some but to some it will.
8) cleaning it is more involved. in the off season it needs to be pulled apart and serviced. if you can do it great if not its another bill.
1) pellets. you need to store them somewhere dry, not always an option for everyone. if they get wet then they are no good.
2) then you have the pellet shortage every year. i don't know too much about it but i hear they run low every year.
3) it depends on electric.
4) it has a circut board that makes it run.. i'm sure they are reliable but too much to go wrong there for me..
5) if the thing breaks down for some reason at 1am who is gonna fix it and where are you getting parts?
6) the chance of getting some free pellets are slim to none.
7) the flame is butt ugly. i know it doesn't matter to some but to some it will.
8) cleaning it is more involved. in the off season it needs to be pulled apart and serviced. if you can do it great if not its another bill.
abj1969 said:
Valid points, but missing some information. I'll try to answer them in the order mentioned:
1) pellets. you need to store them somewhere dry, not always an option for everyone. if they get wet then they are no good.
Wood doesn't burn to well if wet either. Storing wood takes more space not an option for many people in urban areas.
2) then you have the pellet shortage every year. i don't know too much about it but i hear they run low every year.
Yes, can happen. Tends to be a regional issue. Also will happen with wood, try buying some dry wood in January.
3) it depends on electric.
Yup. So do many inserts in order to produce real heat. So do gas and oil furnaces. Not a big deal in most urban environments.
4) it has a circut board that makes it run.. i'm sure they are reliable but too much to go wrong there for me.
As does the furnace, microwave, tv, etc. Personal choice here. There are simple units, but having it thermostatically run is really nice.
5) if the thing breaks down for some reason at 1am who is gonna fix it and where are you getting parts?
And who does one call if a casting or glass cracks, or weld breaks at that hour? At least a pellet stove can be turned off quickly in that circumstance.
6) the chance of getting some free pellets are slim to none.
Correct. Likewise for free gas and wood in an urban environment.
7) the flame is butt ugly. i know it doesn't matter to some but to some it will.
The flame certainly is not as appealing as wood, no question. I think of a pellet stove as an area furnace. And the warmth it puts out is very appealing. Also, they are noisier at high settings than many (but not all) wood stoves.
8) cleaning it is more involved. in the off season it needs to be pulled apart and serviced. if you can do it great if not its another bill.
This varies with the stove. I cleaned my pellet stove the same day I cleaned my wood stove - every other Saturday. They both took about 15 minutes total to clean. Most of the time on each was cleaning the glass.
i under stand that but when wood dries then it will burn... when pellets get wet they swell and are useless... to me its easier to store wood then a pallet of pellets.
but i don't depend on those other things for heat.
.
your right about the location i guess. this area its no problem so thats what i'm going by.
i don't want to argue about it. i'm just listing the things i was told while shopping for a stove and why i decided to go wood.
You made the right decision then. It's an individual choice. FWIW, I only have a woodstove now. A heatpump replaced the pellet stove.
seaken
Minister of Fire
Welcome to the forum S. Jersey. I don't think Begreen was trying to start an argument, only presenting counter points for consideration. Ultimately, we all make our own choices and whatever we decide is respected. But we do sometimes poke at one another on the subject of what type of fuel is best. It's the old Ford vs Chevy thing.
It is not uncommon for us to educate a prospective pellet stove buyer about the negative side of pellet stoves. The pellet industry does a great job of high-lighting the positive aspects of pellet heat. We think it's only fair to point out that it's not all good news. Not everyone is well suited to a pellet stove, or a wood stove. We typically introduce the virtues (and negatives) of gas stoves, or even coal stoves around here.
It's hard to say from here, but we tend to discourage the use of pellet stoves when it is the sole source of beat. Wood, coal, and gas are all better suited as primary sole source heaters in our region. Even at that, we recommend not having only once source of heat, if at all possible. Most have some other source of heat in their house but they always exagerate when their stove isn't working and tell us "it's my only source of heat". In our experience, wood or coal stoves are the best for this circumstance. Very few people will be without heat in an emergency when they have a wood or coal stove. Then again, some make the pellet stove choice work for them, as already posted by others.
Sean
It is not uncommon for us to educate a prospective pellet stove buyer about the negative side of pellet stoves. The pellet industry does a great job of high-lighting the positive aspects of pellet heat. We think it's only fair to point out that it's not all good news. Not everyone is well suited to a pellet stove, or a wood stove. We typically introduce the virtues (and negatives) of gas stoves, or even coal stoves around here.
It's hard to say from here, but we tend to discourage the use of pellet stoves when it is the sole source of beat. Wood, coal, and gas are all better suited as primary sole source heaters in our region. Even at that, we recommend not having only once source of heat, if at all possible. Most have some other source of heat in their house but they always exagerate when their stove isn't working and tell us "it's my only source of heat". In our experience, wood or coal stoves are the best for this circumstance. Very few people will be without heat in an emergency when they have a wood or coal stove. Then again, some make the pellet stove choice work for them, as already posted by others.
Sean
titan
Minister of Fire
I say wood is the most practical "sole" source of heat......Ever try cooking a hot meal on top of a pellet stove during an extended power outage?
GVA
Minister of Fire
Good point. Also the best "soul" source of heat. As noted, it's hard to beat the dancing flames of a nice fire.
We have a propane gas cooktop in the kitchen so the food is covered. But early on many years ago, we had to cook our Thanksgiving meal on our Resolute due to a long power outage.
We have a propane gas cooktop in the kitchen so the food is covered. But early on many years ago, we had to cook our Thanksgiving meal on our Resolute due to a long power outage.
titan
Minister of Fire
GVA, just toss the pellet-eater,install a Harman woodstove with the optional cooking grill, and put the bbq on E-bay. 
titan
Minister of Fire
Begreen,that must have been a memorable holiday.I'll bet you gave "thanks" for that ole Resolute huh?Btw...you didn't actually cook a bird on top of the stove did ya?
GVA
Minister of Fire
The wife doesn't like the smoke / grease stains on the walls inside.. ;-PTitan said:GVA, just toss the pellet-eater,install a Harman woodstove with the optional cooking grill, and put the bbq on E-bay.
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