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Woodstock Soapstone Progress Hybrid Stove

Post in 'The Hearth Room - Wood Stoves and Fireplaces' started by Kruegerw, Jul 30, 2012.

  1. Todd

    Todd Minister of Fire

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    That's very impressive heating that much house on less than 2 cords. I think I could do it as well if I just burned my main floor stove and kept the basement stove cold. I'm still pondering whether to install a gas stove down there or maybe a new PH or just keep as is.

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  2. mliiiwit

    mliiiwit Member

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    Rideau never stated the PH puts out twice as much heat on the same amount of wood. Only you have said that. His statement was that he felt he gets twice the heat for far less than twice the wood. It's interesting that you even highlighted just the first half of his statement in your reply. Seems you have an ulterior motive to cast the PH in a negative light. Either that, or you simply need to revisit one or two of the 3 R's (Reading and aRithmatic, just so you're not left wondering about R's)
  3. mliiiwit

    mliiiwit Member

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    For the "large" Progress Hybrid cat stove to ONLY burn 12-16 hours... the stove's design is a failure.

    Really? What was WS's intent with the design? I have never seen any indication that the design was intended to achieve days-long burn times. Increased efficiency obviously WAS a goal of the design and this is proven to have been achieved. So your claim that the design is a failure is completely false.

    Seriously, if the competitor can get 30 hours from the same sized firebox then woodstock needs to do lots more than make tweaks. Sure it's efficient, sure it's beautiful, sure the company's service is excellent but if this cat stove can only perform like a non-cat then why not just get a non-cat? Lots of attractive non-cat stoves to choose from that are easier and cheaper to operate.

    The part of your statement underlined is untrue. The PH can be operated in either mode. The advantage of the hybrid is that the secondaries provide for most of a complete burn at any rate above the lowest burn rates, unloading the demand on the catalytic, while the secondaries can be completely shut down for low burn while still having full benefit of complete catalytic combustion. Secondary air is fully, though not separately, controllable. When you completely close the draft, the firebox cools to the point that secondary combustion is no longer sustainable. That's when the real business of producing heat moves fully upstairs into the cat. No pretty flames to look at, but a VERY efficient burn mode. And to anyone wondering, I say "upstairs to the cat" because the cat is at the very top of the stove and is not visible through the window.

    What is your basis for assuming the PH is harder or more expensive to operate? The return from higher efficiency will very likely exceed the expense of occasionally replacing the catalytic and the stove has only 2 controls. I think most people are fully capable of steering and accelerating or braking at the same time and the PH controls do not require concurrent usage. Also, you are arguing both sides of the coin. In the beginning you are arguing for long burn times (cat stoves), but then you argue for non-cat stoves that are "easier and cheaper to operate". Secondary burn stoves aren't exactly famous for long burn times. A cat is a MUST HAVE for long, low fire burn times. So, just what is your point here, other than to attempt to cast the PH and/or WS in a negative light?

    Imagine buying a car that gets only 10 mpg when the same size car is available with the same size engine from another company getting 20 mpg.

    This comparison doesn't even make sense for your argument. No other stove tested to date is as efficient as the WS PH. You're saying that efficiency (mpg) is related to firebox (gas tank) size. Your reasoning actually shows the PH is the better stove as IT IS THE SAME CAR THAT GETS BETTER MILEAGE, as you put it. You just have to fill the tank a little more often.

    Your grudge, whatever it is, with Woodstock and/or the PH is either blinding you to simple facts about the stove or motivating you to intentionally make false, negative statements about it. It burns more efficiently than any stove ever tested under controlled conditions. It WILL provide more heat output per btu input than any other stove tested to date. Period.

    Burn times are the number one priority for the real 24/7 burner that actually uses the stove for primary heat. The other woodstock cat stoves seem to get decent burntimes. It's too bad they couldn't have just stuck with straight cat technology that they are so good at.

    Now you're back to arguing for cat only stoves (long burn times). Burn times are NOT MY #1 priority (and I do heat 24/7 with a PH, when heat is needed) and I suspect that your statement that burn time is #1 priority is not as true as you'd like to believe. If it were, EVERYONE would own a Blazeking, wouldn't they? What need would there be for any other stove to be on the market? Again, your grudge with WS/PH seems obvious.

    Also, just what is the official definition of "burn time"? As far as I know, there is no official definition or testing that defines this term. It's just a lot of very subjective numbers thrown around on the forum and by manufacturers. Also, I believe you should do a bit closer comparison of firebox sizes when discussing these subjective numbers. Based on firebox sizes, I don't think burn time was the primary goal of WS for the PH.

    I had high hopes for this new stove when it was first announced, I am disappointed in the reports. Never liked the name either. Sorry to be negative but facts are facts.

    I believe you are disappointed because your expectations of the stove were not WS's design objective. The "facts" you mention are actually only your opinion. "Never liked the name" Really? Please explain for all forum members how the name affects the stoves performance or appearance, or the quality of WS customer service. Again, your grudge.......

    I do fully believe that you are sorry to be negative as most negative people I know ARE SORRY.

    To everybody else reading my replies: I apologize if my sarcasm toward Certified and Highbeam offends you. But it really peeves me when forum members make false statements about products they have no experience with, or when they twist another member's post into something that is not even close to the original post, and nobody calls them on it. The forum is for sharing information (truth or honest opinion based on experience) and not for such baseless aspersions as these members have posted.

    I installed my PH in Feb 12 and my parents have had a Fireview for years. They are very good stoves and, if there were an industry review of customer service, I have no doubt that WS would rank highest in the industry, hands down. These folks are just unbelievably committed to quality in all facets of the business. For anyone looking for objective information/opinion on products to help make an investment decision, I most confidently recommend the Fireview or PH if either is in your consideration.
  4. BrowningBAR

    BrowningBAR Minister of Fire

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    Enough with the insults. It was a legitimate question from certified. There are no "ulterior motives". People really need to be less sensitive when it comes to questions about certain stoves.
    Joful likes this.
  5. BrowningBAR

    BrowningBAR Minister of Fire

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    Cut the crap.
  6. mliiiwit

    mliiiwit Member

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    I stand by my posts. Their aspersions aren't contributing to the forum.
  7. BrowningBAR

    BrowningBAR Minister of Fire

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    They are legitimate questions and statements. Yours, on the other hand, are insulting and condescending. If you have constructive information regarding the stove, post it.
  8. rdust

    rdust Minister of Fire

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    This hasn't been reported by members using the stove. They've posted once the secondaries take over there is no stopping them. I've read WS has a posted procedure on their site.

    Please make a post detailing your experiences we would love to read them.

    My goal is to heat my house and easily as possible and burn times are my number 1 goal. BK isn't my first stove it's my second after being disappointed with the burn times of the first.

    It doesn't affect any of those things but most people can agree the name choice was poor.

    Remember this is a forum on the internet it's full of people opinions.
  9. BrowningBAR

    BrowningBAR Minister of Fire

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    Let's focus specifically on this part of your hideously insulting post.

    First off, I am really tired of Woodstock owners (not all of you, but there are several of you) getting all upset when people do not speak glowingly about them. Woodstock is one of the most recommended stoves on this forum. Everyone, including highbeam and certified and myself have recommended them to others and have spoken in a positive manner about them in the past.

    But, whenever someone mentions that any of their stoves aren't absolutely perfect in every way people like you go on a rant, throw insults, and send ridiculously embarrassing Private Messages (you know who you are) to posters.

    Last year before the Progress came out, Woodstock fanatics would push the Hybrid onto new posters looking for stove suggestions. When some of us mentioned that may not be a wise idea considering we don't know how it works, the fanatics let us all know how wrong we are.

    Blindly pushing one brand of stoves is not beneficial to new members of this site and it is bordering on spam at this point.

    Additionally, you should take a moment to grow up. This forum is about talking about how stoves function, and that includes peoples needs and expectations about a stove. If you only want to hear positive things about the products you own, may I kindly suggest that you stick to watching commercials.

    The main gripe here is the hybrid technology and how it works. Right now, Woodstock is the only stove that currently offers this that is available to the public, though there are at least two other manufacturers that have models ready to hit the market. As of now, it really seems like these stoves do not act like traditional cat stoves and that they lose some of the control benefits of a traditional cat stove. If you feel otherwise, post factual information about the stove as many owners have posted information that tells many of us that the stove clearly does not run like a cat stove and that it does, in fact, alter the stoves performance and controls.

    A lot of members on here are trying to figure out exactly how this tech works and if it is something that meets their needs. As of now, the information we have available seems to indicate that the hybrid technology hinders the controls of the stove and negatively effects burn times when compared to a traditional cat system.

    But, this thread, and future threads like this, will be about asking questions and forming opinions about the technology. Much like how Certified and highbeam did. You may not like the questions or the opinions they form. And with that I say; tough.

    If I got upset every time someone mentioned a negative opinion about the VC stoves I own, I would spend a lot of time on mindless rants desperately defending my purchase. But I don't. Because that is ridiculous and would force me to ignore information. Questions and information and statistics are very valuable. Ignoring such things is a bad direction to take in life.

    Now, let's get back to the stove and what it can, or can not, do.
    Joful, jeff_t and rdust like this.
  10. Huntindog1

    Huntindog1 Minister of Fire

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    I too have wondered what the benefit of hybrid technology is, its a very interesting concept but to actually know what the real world applications of it are would make it more appealing.

    Just tot take a stab at it here, I would think since the stove gets a higher efficiency rating, that what could be going on is that when the stove is in a mode that the secondaries are firing that a certain amount of the smoke is being re-burned. Now we now nothing is perfect so even with the secondaries lit off and burning that not all the smoke is being used up. We also know that the cat works at a lower level of temp than the secondary burn tubes or manifold mode of operation. So its fair to say that if you got secondaries firing then the cat is also at a temp that it is also operating. I suspect that the cat is cleaning up what is left from the secondary burn manifold mode of operation. It might be said that secondary burn technology by its self is not perfect and it can be said Cat technology by its self is not perfect. But operating together with the secondary burn technology first cleaning up the smoke gases as good as it can then letting the Cat technology clean up an extra amount that's left over , then your left with a cleaner more efficient burning stove. Could it be that the cat works better in this mode if its receiving exhaust from the stove that has been first partially cleaned up with a secondaries firing mode of operation. It would take some lab experiments to see.

    I see too that part of the hybrid technology is that a person can enjoy the best of both worlds as in shutting the air down low its a full cat mode or opening the air back up the secondaries light off and you get to see the light show.

    As far as burn time goes maybe it was determined that the 14-16 hour burn time was a happy medium, its plenty long for an overnight burn or a long days work. But also the stove is tuned for best operation.

    So lastly I do night have the stove or ever operated the stove but what I said above is my best guess as to the mystery every one is asking about as to what Hybrid technology ,what it can do for the real world.
    HollowHill likes this.
  11. chipsoflyin

    chipsoflyin Member

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    The trick to this stove is getting it to burn low and slow in cat mode only. Does the BK back puff, does the cat stall,does the glass turn black, what do the emissions from the stack look like during these 30 hour cat burns. I know these are some of the issues I've had trying to run the PH on the cat only( damper completely closed). If we can solve the " secondaries firing off" issue,I think we will start to see the longer "BK" length burns.
  12. fire_man

    fire_man Minister of Fire

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    Chipsoflyin

    What is your chimney setup - how tall, exterior,insulated? I had some cat stalls and backpuffing last year. My theory is that this stove wants a REALLY GOOD DRAFT since the flue gas temps are so low. This year I insulated the flue. It's still too warm to run my stove enough to see if insulating really worked.
  13. chipsoflyin

    chipsoflyin Member

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    My setup, on paper, is less than ideal, I have a 25 foot flue 12 by 12 running straight up through the middle of the house. My black pipe rises five feet then 45s for another 3 feet then 45s to horizontal At the thimble, after the thimble there is another 4 feet of horizontal that ties into the 12 by12 flue. The draft seems real strong as I get whistling through the small hole in the lower front when it's windy, on cold starts I have no problems with smoke in the house with the door open, and with a full load I get secondary action even with the air completely closed. By back puffing I mean with the stove black, and the cat active, the gases will ignite in the fire box causing the smoke smell in the house.
  14. Joful

    Joful Minister of Fire

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    Sounds like you've already figured out why, but in case not, it's because you're not moving those gasses out of the firebox and thru the cat at a sufficient rate. Open the primary air control, draft increases, and problem solved. Of course, then you're producing more heat than you want. My solution to this problem was to install a 6" insulated flue in my masonry chimney, but I won't be able to tell you how well that worked until October.
  15. rdust

    rdust Minister of Fire

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    My BK does not back puff, the cat has never stalled, the glass does turn black on the low burns, stack is always clean when the cat is engaged and active.

    I'm sure a BK could back puff with insufficient draft just like any other stove. Lets not let BK talk take over this thread. :)
  16. fire_man

    fire_man Minister of Fire

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    rdust:

    Can you post your flue setup? Exterior/lined/insulated?? I'm trying to figure out relationships with this stove between the flue setups and how well their stove runs
  17. Huntindog1

    Huntindog1 Minister of Fire

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    Joful,

    So sounds like your fix for backpuffing is to increase the draw. As the Cat acts as somewhat of a slight restriction or resistannce to flow if there isnt a good draw from the flue. Then gases build up in the stove and can ignite inside of firebox.

    I think the smaller 6" diameter should speedup the velocity as well as it being insulated as a warmer flue should have more draw as warmer gases will rise better and maybe rise faster.
  18. fire_man

    fire_man Minister of Fire

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    You also have to make sure the small hole in the bottom of the stove near the glass is not covered with ash. It's meant to provide some air at low burns to prevent backpuffing.
  19. rdust

    rdust Minister of Fire

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    Flue is inside for first floor(shared wall between family room and living room) then runs along a second floor wall through the attic with a few feet above the roof line. I have 27' of liner down a masonry chimney, I used pour insulation from chimney liner depot. The pipe inside is double wall pipe, one 90 to get me into the wall and another 90 from the liner T. At some point I may change the 90 inside to two 45's but it seems to work fine for now.
  20. fire_man

    fire_man Minister of Fire

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    Sounds like you did not kid around and have a great setup.
  21. rideau

    rideau Minister of Fire

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    I think you are being a little hard on mliiiwit....you don't want to treat him as you are suggesting he is treating others.

    I had pretty much the same reaction he did to a few posts, and feel that he does address some problems that did exist in the posts.

    I chose to address them in a different way...by detailing my results and answering questions. Waulie has done a great job of doing that also..he started it, I followed him. A good number of others who are heating with PHs are posting their comments, experiences, insights, opinions and concerns on both these threads. All of us who are heating with PHs will benefit from this, and there will be people who are contemplating new stoves who will get enough information from these posting to know whether the PH is the stove for them.

    So I do agree, it is a good idea to put yourself in the place of the person to whom you are responding before you write a post.
  22. mliiiwit

    mliiiwit Member

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    No, their questions and statements were not legitimate.

    Yes, I intentionally included some insults to reflect the tone of their posts. Additionally, your couple of posts on the first page also carried a negative slant toward the PH. So I must wonder if the three of you are not conspiring together. You posted:

    Maybe not a gimmick, but the benefits are in doubt.

    Why would you doubt the benefits? The PH tested as the most efficient stove ever. The catalytic and secondary burn ensure it achieves the cleanest burn in all modes of operation. Both technologies have their benefit and the PH combines them.

    And: Just make it a straight cat stove and those burn times would jump.

    The PH can be operated in cat mode only. So what is your basis for this statement?

    I do not see in your signature or in any of your posts that you are operating a PH, so why are you even chiming in with negative posts or defending others who are doing the same? Please review all of my posts. You will find that I have never posted anything negative about a product I have no experience with.

    If anyone has anything negative about any product to share, I have no problem with that as long as it is based on their personal experience and is presented objectively. Negative opinions not based on personal experience do not belong in a thread such as this.

    I believe I included a fair amount of constructive information in my previous 2 posts on this thread. If you're too blinded by whatever motivation you have to see that. that's your problem, not mine or that of anyone else.

    If anyone would like more information on the PH or how to operate it, I will gladly share what I've learned with mine.


    I have no problem with anyone posting opinions in a thread requesting objective information. But that is not what certified and highbeam did.

    If a member replies to a post, they owe it to all other members to read and fully understand the post they are replying to.

    If a member wishes to post their opinions, they need to simply state their opinions and not represent them as facts.
  23. rdust

    rdust Minister of Fire

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    The basis of this is just about every owner has posted if the secondaries start lighting off they will continue to light off even with the air closed down. If that wasn't the case why would Woodstock explain on their web-site how to obtain a low/overnight burn?

    From their site: "Low & Overnight Burning
    These instructions are intended as a guide to operating your wood stove. Your timing
    and final damper settings will vary depending on chimney draft, type of wood, moisture
    content of the wood and size of the splits. The Progress Hybrid is simply designed and
    intended to be user friendly, but it will take some practice to get used to it.

    1. Before you open the loading door, you must fully open the catalytic bypass and the air
    damper. Wait a minute or so for a strong draft to be established to prevent smoke from
    spilling back into the room.
    2. Stir up the hot coals. If necessary, excess ash should be removed before reloading the
    firebox. If your stove has the optional ash pan, simply rake the hot coals back and forth
    in the firebox to allow the loose ash to fall through the grate into the ash pan. If your stove does not have an ash pan,
    push the hot coals to one side and shovel the loose ash into a non-combustible ash container with a tight fitting lid.
    Dispose of the ash properly.
    Never put an ash container on a combustible surface, like a wood floor.
    3. Place several small splits on top of the hot coals and allow them to ignite.
    4. Load the firebox to capacity leaving space for secondary combustion, with a mix of larger and smaller splits. Close
    the loading door.
    5. Adjust the air damper to its lowest setting by rotating the lever toward the loading door.
    6. Close the catalytic bypass, by turning the handle counter-clockwise until it stops.
    7. Initially the fire may appear to die out. This may cause a small amount of soot to collect on the glass. Any buildup on
    the glass should go away with higher temperature burns."

    *If* it operated just like any other cat stove they would just tell you start a fire just like any other fire and turn the air down for a low cat type burn when you wanted to achieve that mode. Instead they have to tell you to load the stove to capacity, turn the damper to the lowest setting and close the cat bypass. This is done so the secondaries don't have a chance to light off. One of my concerns would be how do I get a low burn on the same load of wood I used to warm up the house with after being away all day. If I have a long day and my inside temps aren't where I want them I may have to burn hot for an hour or so to restore temps then I turn the stove down to low for the long haul. If I have to dampen it down right from the start without ever letting the stove burn on high(per their site) how do I warm up the house before setting in for the long haul?

    Yes, please do this. I think this would be much more effective than the current course of telling everyone they're wrong to form an opinion since they haven't operated the stove.
  24. rideau

    rideau Minister of Fire

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  25. chipsoflyin

    chipsoflyin Member

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    This technique may eventually work, but in my situation a lot of black smoke would go up the stack before the cat would light. When the cat was brand new it would definitely work.

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