ZC insert heart burn

[59Cummins]

I have two ZC fireplaces in my home and have been looking for a used insert for several months and recently found this site that has answered many questions and created more. Yesterday I went to a Lopi dealer since my used search has been fruitless. WOW the cost was hard to swallow.
I was quoted $2200 for a Lopi Answer w/ blower, $1100 for an insulated liner which I was told I didn't need (asked for this after reading on here) that the $650 SS liner was all I needed and $650 for install. Is this price on par? I am going to get more quotes but this is the closest dealer and Lopi is manufactured a few hours away. I like to support local when I can.
My questions are why is there so much hate for ZC inserts on here? The more I read on here about ZC inserts the more questions I have. My feelings are if they are so unsafe why do so many manufactures make them.
Furthermore is the insulated liner really needed? I read that the existing is rated to 1700degree and the insert would be rated at 2200degree but does that mean the 6” would actually ever be 2200 and transfer all that thru to the 8” and then thru the 14” to actually cause a problem? I’ve also read that the original cap must be used so as to keep the original double wall system working, so do you put the new little cap on the 6” inside the big old cap?
Sorry for all the random questions and thoughts but I want an insert, at the same time I don’t want to burn my house down either…
I would really like so straight forward no drama answers that I think most of my heart burn came from in the first place. Not to be rude, just need facts though.

 

[pen]

The problem isn't with zero clearance fireplaces, but with trying to install an insert in them when the fireplace isn't rated to handle it.

As a personal thing, I just don't like that they are so dependent upon the blower. However, if you are stuck with a fireplace to work with, and it is not big enough to handle a freestanding stove set in it, then they are the best answer.

So it sounds like you have a zero clearance fireplace that you want to remove and replace with a different insert? Depending on the construction of what you have, you very well may need to stick with a zero clearance unit.

pen

 

[Jags]

Not sure where you are getting a "hate or unsafe" feeling for an insert. With a proper install, they are both safe and productive. Often, folks dislike the fact that most inserts really do need to run a fan to get good heat into the living area.
About the insulated liner - insulation will help retain the heat that is going up the stack. This might sound counter productive, but the new EPA stoves are stingy with the output - to the point that you want to "protect" it. Shove an insulated liner down the flu and you will never be sorry that you did. Combine that with an insulated block off plate above the stove and you will rock the place.

 

[59Cummins]

Pen: I have a ZC fireplace from the early 70's with no fans or anything to get heat out. I want to put a insert in the ZC since I don't have room for a free standing stove. How do I figure out if my ZC is rated to handle an insert without having any tags or model number to look up? Is there a certain design or feature that separates the ZC fireplaces?

Jags: I get the "hate or unsafe" feelings from several post on here, such as:

"Of course you could just ignore all this "code" talk and just throw some old lopi in there, but remember you have wood studs and other combustibles close by and if the insert going in that firebox is not engineered for that purpose you stand a chance of burning the house down, and believe me the insurance company will love you because they will be able to deny the claim."

"I believe this point was made before but there are no certification for insert installs into ZC. There's nothing to test to since there are no protocols or certification available from ASTM, UL etc...
Some MFG will "allow" their inserts to be used in some specific ZC's. How they go about choosing which they recommend is anyones guess and they probably have internal process to approve it."

There are not a whole lot of threads on ZC's inserts on here but almost all of them have a post or two like of above in them. That is why I get fidgety about them now. I'm not trying to be difficult, just seeking knowledge (why I'm on here) so I can make the right decision for my family. My wife and 2yr old are the main reason I want the emergency back up heat. We live in the Rockies where large snow storms are common. Like the one in 03' that dumped 7' in 36hrs. No power, houses and businesses collapsing, National Guard using snow cats to get to emergencies. I figure we are about due for another whopper!

 

[Jags]

Take a look at a couple of inserts. Review the install part of the manuals. They will list out the requirements for Clearances. Not knowing what your current fireplace is built like - I can't venture a guess to what will be required for an insert...and to Pens point, I would assume that you Can't simply slide an insert in until you prove otherwise.
You are gonna have to start digging in and do your homework at this point.
Not all inserts/stoves are created equal.

 

[59Cummins]

I have looked at several inserts (Lopi, Quad, Avalon) and the install notes and from that I though I could just slide one in and hook it up. They give min measurements and I exceed those. Take out the dampner, grate, and front glass/screen then put it in. Then they just show having a liner, not stating insulated or not. From the will it fit stand point I'm good. Its the is it really "safe" and what is "needed and not needed" that I am lost. Maybe I am over-thinking this and reading to much, just my nature. I don't do anything without knowing why. I will post some pics too, maybe it will shed some light on this particular circumstance.

Honestly I just wanna get back cutting wood too. Grew up cutting and splitting every weekend to heat the 80x120 shop with a double barrel stove in Indiana.

 

[Jags]

Post up some pics. That is a good starting point. If you exceed the requirements, then yes, you may very well be able to slide it into place.
The old adage of "to insulate or not"...when have you ever heard of insulation being a bad thing?

 

[basswidow]

Cummins, most ZC prefab fireplaces are rated for gas log sets or burning wood not so much for heat but for appearance and are NOT rated for Wood Stove Temps, nor is the flue. You may find someone to sell you a liner and put a small insert in it, but I wouldn't. I ran into the same problem myself and here is the solution I opted for. I think it's a mistake to put an insert wood stove into a prefab fireplace like a heatilator that has ceramic tile panels over sheet metal. It's just not rated for that type of heat. Especially since you can't find any specs on it. Secondly, the firebox is small and won't accept anything but the smallest of inserts - it's just a waste and dangerous. You're still buying a stove and new HT flue - get something you'll like with some size and heat output. You don't have to be stuck with thinking you have to incorporate the existing pre fab fireplace and flue into your new set up. Pulling it out is easy. Mine came out so easily. A couple of wood screws and that was it. I pulled it out and the flue dropped down 1 section at a time.

I opted to remove my zc fireplace and flue and replaced it with a zero clearance woodstove fireplace, like a Kozyheat Z42, with a new HT Class A chimney. The ZC Woodstoves are designed specifically for this and fit perfectly in the existing framed bump out. Even the new HT Class A chimney fit directly into the previous Flue Chase. There are several manufacturers who make these. Don't be decieved because it looks like a fireplace. It's a powerful wood stove, it heated my whole house. It's a woodstove that looks like a fireplace and fits right into the same hole. You will get a much larger fire box, more BTU's, larger viewing area, and it's flush with the wall. You can frame and drywall it in right up to it (zero clearance). It shouldn't cost you too much more than the insert and liner you are considering now and you'll get twice the stove and output. It won't be sticking out of your fireplace and will have a nice FINISHED and intended look. The appliance will be matched and used as intended with safety in mind, and you won't lose sleep worring if your insert inside the prefab fireplace being dangerous and fixing to melt and burn your house down and hearing about it from you wife. Mine kept us warm during many power outages. It has an outside air intake and blower. Woodstoves don't have to be just inserts or freestanding.

Just another option.

http://www.kozyheat.com/product/z42

AS for your question about he flue. For a wood stove - it needs to be HT 2200 degrees for the potential of the heat and chimney fires. Lets say you aren't burning good wood and cresote builds up into your flue rated for 1700, the chimney fire could burn thru it to include the 14 inch outer ring. The higher temp flue is required to match the appliance you are using and is very important to match and be incompliance with the stoves requirements. I wouldn't mess around with guess work. Stick with manufactures reqired specs.

As for the flue cap, you'd have to have a cap to incorporate the 14 inch, I would not put the 6 in cap inside and then the 14 cap. This to me seems complicated.

 

[Jags]

Just another option.

And I like it.

 

[59Cummins]

Pictures of my current ZC:

 

[59Cummins]

Basswidow: I priced out what you are talking about first. I used one for about 6mo in a rental house in between buying and selling homes last winter. I think it was an older one because it didn't have all the reburn tubes. It worked pretty well, not the most heat but acceptable (could keep about 500sqft warm). Anyway, like I said I priced one out and maybe the guy was giving me a top of the line deal, don't have the quote any more but it was just shy of 10grand. No I'm not fluffing either. I just told the guy thanks took to paper and ran with my wallet held tight! Last I looked into it.

Maybe I will revisit the idea. I was really trying not to go over $3500 since I don't plan on using it every day, thus not providing much of ROI.

 

[59Cummins]

Looking on here the price varies for $2800 to 6000 installed for a Kozy Heat.

 

[pen]

Great pics of the unit itself. Stand back a bit and take a few pics of the unit from floor to ceiling (and anything interesting inbetween). That may help a few of the folks who know their stuff give you additional advice.

Also, when light permits, what it looks like from the roof up to the sky.

I'm not expert here so not saying these shots will help me give you a better answer, but may be helpful to other knowledgeable folks.

pen

 

[basswidow]

Basswidow: I priced out what you are talking about first. I used one for about 6mo in a rental house in between buying and selling homes last winter. I think it was an older one because it didn't have all the reburn tubes. It worked pretty well, not the most heat but acceptable (could keep about 500sqft warm). Anyway, like I said I priced one out and maybe the guy was giving me a top of the line deal, don't have the quote any more but it was just shy of 10grand. No I'm not fluffing either. I just told the guy thanks took to paper and ran with my wallet held tight! Last I looked into it.

Maybe I will revisit the idea. I was really trying not to go over $3500 since I don't plan on using it every day, thus not providing much of ROI.

Staying under $ 3500 might be tough. I think $ 10 grand - guy was smoking crack! I got mine installed under $ 5k, but I had to do the tear out. I installed the electric and got the permit. They also installed a new cap over the chase. My house was 3700 sf and we blocked off the room above the garage. This stove heated the whole house.

Good luck with whatever you decide on - just make sure it's safe! And makes the wife happy. Happy wife - happy life!

 

[ishamael69]

I'm pretty sure that my Buck 74ZC stove will wind up being right around 5k installed. It cost $2700 for the stove (+300 for a pewter door), and it sounds like they are doing quite a bit of work on my flue. Might it be an option, or one of the other Buck ZC stoves?

I'm new to this world, but it sounds less like dislike / fear of inserts, and more like dislike of solutions that are untested and unsupported by the manufacturers. I know the 74 (non-zc) has a specific list of fireplace models that it can be used as an insert in.

 

[begreen]

There are several companies that test and approve their inserts for ZC installation. Regency is one of them. I personally don't have an issue with a properly installed ZC insert, done by the book and with the stove mfg. approval. It is a jacketed stove within a stove and attached to a new liner within a sound chimney.

The bigger concern is will you be satisfied with a small insert like the Lopi Answer? In other words, is the Answer sized right for the space you want to heat? Are the shorter fires that a small firebox is going to offer OK or would the goal be 24/7 heating? Step back and decide the big picture first and then we can narrow down some solutions for achieving this goal.

 

[59Cummins]

He is a litte better view..... The more I read about the ZC fireplace the more I like them. A little less efficient but seems to be a no question asked safest route. Just might not happen this winter, have some more pressing things to on the new digs.

 

[59Cummins]

another thought. Has anyone seen a price difference buy buying a stove in the summer? Kinda like buying a boat in the winter...

 

[pen]

Doesn't hurt to start shopping at the end of the season. Sometimes you can get deals on inventory they were hoping to move before new stuff comes in over the summer.

To me though, a deal would only be on the perfect insert for your situation. If you compromise for say a smaller unit because it's a good deal, you stand a good chance of never getting the performance you were hoping for and might have a good deal end up being not so sweet in the long run.

And I agree that keeping it zero clearance is probably the easiest thing to do. There are some good units on the market from what people report.

pen

 

[chris5150]

Wonder if I could get one of those Kozy heats to replace my Quad 2700I. That would be nice with close to a 3 cuft burn box as opposed to my 1.8 cuft.

 

[NVHunter]

So with a zero clearance wood stove can you really install them inside a stud framed wall like my alcove area here with a gas fireplace?

I wouldn't think it would be safe but I haven't looked into it really.

My plan was to remove the gas fireplace and the drywall an framing around it and open up the alcove and then put a free standing wood stove in the open area after extending the hearth.

Would a zero clearance work in there? If still have to install a Class A chimney on either project.