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10/19/95
1. Ventless Products--are we selling out?
2. Computer experience in Hearth Industry
3. Spifs, what do you think?
10/23/95
(1). Ventless Products and HPA Concerns
(2). Announcement of HearthNet and hearth.com
(3). A bad year for Hearth ?
10/25/95
1. How are Sales, What's going on ? (2 posts)
2. HPA, Ventless, Hearth (2 posts)
11/1/95
1. More thoughts on HPA's leanings
2. HS TARM Annnounces new Web Site
3. hearth.com up and running (totally under construction!)
4. Season is finally here!
5. Speaking as a Rep
11/7/95
In this Issue
1. Finally some action
2. Screens for ventless ?
3. Partially Vented Logs
4. About this list
11/8/95
1. This and That-
11/9/95
1. Thoughts on Usenet--From Noel Gilmore (Autumn Moon Fireplaces)
2. Content for HearthNet
11/20/95
1. November Shaping Up !
2. New Post to Address for this list
11/26/95
1. News From Canada
2. November not bad !
3. New Domain Name
4. More Manufacturers joining HearthNet
11/21/95
#1..What's up with Jotul in canada ?
#2. Mass Merchants
#3. Happy Holidays
12/26/95
1. Press Release From Jotul, USA
12/29/95
1. Input wanted - Jim Butchart ([email protected])
2. Vent-Free Products (Continued) - Craig Issod ([email protected])
1/4/96
1 What is Hearthlist ?
2.New Years Awards
3. Builders and Payment
4. GAMA Press Release
1/4/96
01/04/96
#1. Input Wanted
#2- Vent-Free (con't)
1/5/96
1. Greetings and Comments from John Crouch (for those who are not aware,
John is the Governmental Relations Guy for HPA and also all around good
guy !- ed.)
1/10/96
1. Builders and stuff from Tim Nissen
2. HearthNet in top 5% of Web Sites !
1/24/96
1. What are the Margins ?
1/24/96
1. Answer about Margins
2. Poor customer service - epidemic among Hearth Manufacturers
1/24/96
Margins, Quality Service, and The Upcoming Builders Show
1/27/95
1. Message from on Manufacturer on QC
2. Comment on the above
1/28/96
1. Need a good employee !
10/19/95
1. Ventless Products--are we selling out?
2. Computer experience in Hearth Industry
3. Spifs, what do you think?
To: Hearth
From: [email protected] (Craig Issod)
Subject: First Post on Mailing List
Cc:
Bcc:
X-Attachments:
My Fellow Moderator Tim has posted the following messages to get dialog
started on this discussion group. For now, I'll be sending out the posts
once or twice a week, and/or when they build up. After awhile, I'll store
an archive of all messages on my new site (hearth.com) so folks can page
back for reference.
In this issue:
1. Ventless Products--are we selling out?
2. Computer experience in Hearth Industry
3. Spifs, what do you think?
X-POP3-Rcpt: fire@k2nesoft
From: [email protected]
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 00:11:59 -0400
To: [email protected]
Subject: Ventless Gas Products
It's happening; Furrows is advertising ventless gas logs; Vermont Castings
in featuring vent free gas hearth appliances in "Hearthwarming."
A competitor is telling customers, "if you don't like it I'll take
it back and give you full credit toward anything else we sell."
My concerns:
1. Open flame with nowhere for combustion biproducts to go except the house.
You ever notice how many people play with lit candles on your dinner table.
What happens when my kids start burning up little things in the ventless
stove?
2. Moisture; this is a damn soggy climate, rains slow and steady for many
days during the year; puddles of water on the window sill without anything
being burnt.
3. Long term Indoor Air Quality Concerns, especially where the house is
unkempt, pet hair flying around, etc. etc. Some products have labels to
the effect that they should not be used around children, the elderly, and
pregnent women. Why would I want to carry a product with this warning?
4. Currently selling about ten sets of gas logs each month and thirty high
efficiency gas stoves and inserts. Average invoice on the high efficiency
products: $2,500. What happens to my product mix, sales volume and profitability
when ventless is added to the mix.
5. GAMA Ventless group currently uses lawyers and intimidation to scare
off honest discussion. Dealer writes "Hearth &
Home" expressing honest concerns and some lawyer from big time Covington
and Burling DC law firm threatens to sue him unless he retracts. Makes me
very angry and polarizes the discussion.
6. My fourteen employees are strongly against selling ventless product.
Suspect that some valued employees would walk rather than talk the talk.
7. None of my industry buddies sell ventless, although some have dabbled.
Would appreciate hearing from other dealers who have struggled with these
issues.X-POP3-Rcpt: fire@k2nesoft From: [email protected]
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 00:12:09 -0400
To: [email protected]
Subject: Accounting Software
My annual project for the past eight years has been to get more of our accounting
functions on the computer, especially inventory. Have moved from self written
spread sheets to Quicken to Quick Books to Quick Books for Windows to Quick
Books Pro. Just this season have finally gotten our inventory "on line"
with specific stocking levels etc. It is a very powerful tool, and now we
have opened Pandora's box and we want more, more, more; specifically:
1. The program uses as its triggering event the invoice. This is fine for
accounts, but we want to know what we have on hand and what's spoken for
and when. We want to be able to access information based on sales orders
(as well as invoices).
2. The program is not networkable. We have a network of five PC's in the
store, but only one person can work on the data file at a time. We want
to be able to invoice cast sales out front, generate estimates, sales orders
and invoices in the back, and access service records everywhere. We need
networkable software!
3. We are well down the DOS, PC, Windows path.
4. We have employees ranging from the very computer literate to the very
illeterate and scared to death. The software needs to balance power with
simplicity.
5. We would like to be able to establish pricing levels by customer, or
at least customer type.
6. We would like to be able to show discounts by SKU line on the invoice,
and be able to calculate accurate gross margins, by SKU. With Quick Books
we use subtotals and then discounts.
Computers---- Info anyone ?
I would find it very helpful to hear from other dealers about the accounting
software that they are using, and it's relative strengths and weaknesses.X-POP3-Rcpt:
fire@k2nesoft From: [email protected]
Craig Issod ([email protected]) answers: Too bad you're so far down the
Windows/PC path--as they say "life is too short for windows support"-Anyway,
I use a bunch af Mac (networked) and Filemaker Pro (wrote my own POS system)
to run Stoveworks. The good news, Filemaker Pro is cross platform and works
with Windows !---It allows you a great amount of flexibility to set up your
own format. Ours does all invoicing, inventory, PO's, reports , etc. It
does our bank deposits at the end of each day, and even updates from our
second store with no problem. I demoed every POS program on the market prior
to rolling my own, and they were all too rigid for me--I know the salesfolks
could never operate them !
Craig Issod
Stoveworks Inc. (Medford, NJ)
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 00:25:49 -0400
To: [email protected]
Subject: Spiffs
Do manufacturers understand that any store manager/owner who allows his
employees to participate in and be influenced by spiff programs is an idiot?
What in the world is going on this year with every other manufacturer offering
$25 to $50 bribes to sales people selling their product. Who in the hell
do they think these people work for anyway? My customers and their best
interests? Home Fire Stove and our collective best interests? Or Vermont
Castings and $25 bucks to move Interpids, Acclaims and Encores? We have
a written policy that Home Fire Stove does not participate in individual
spiff programs. When we get these notices I don't even share the information.
I go ahead and list myself as the sales person for all sales made under
the program, and when the money comes in I divvy it up as I see fit. Last
year I took all of our sales people to HPA Las Vegas and gave them each
$300 in spiff spending money. We want to do the best job possible in matching
up our customers needs with our product features and benefits, at the same
time turning our inventory in a business like way. Spiffs have no part of
this program. Your thoughts are welcome!
Craig Issod Answers:
I do go along with some of these programs on a limited basis, but I also
see it as foo lish--NONE of our salesfolks are on commission--we want them
to sell the right product to each person, and not the make a decision for
the customer due to $20. ! So, we go along only to the point of giving the
spiffs if we happen to sell the units in the narmal course of business.
We give Spiffs all right--but they are called BONUSES and they are thousands
of dollars given at the end of the year (if it's a good year) Craig
End of Post:
Send Messages to the list at [email protected] specify if you are
mailing me privately (not for the list)
Craig Back to Top
10/23/95
(1). Ventless Products and HPA Concerns
(2). Announcement of HearthNet and hearth.com
(3). A bad year for Hearth ?
Subjects covered in this post:
(1). Ventless Products and HPA Concerns
(2). Announcement of HearthNet and hearth.com
(3). A bad year for Hearth ?
>On Oct. 18, Tim Nissen ([email protected]) wrote:
>
>It's happening; Furrows is advertising ventless gas logs; Vermont Castings
in
>featuring vent free gas hearth appliances in "Hearthwarming."
A competitor
>is telling customers, "if you don't like it I'll take it back and
give you
>full credit toward anything else we sell."
>
>My concerns:
>
>...........Snip.............
>
>Would appreciate hearing from other dealers who have struggled with
these
>issues.
_________________________________________________________________
On Oct 23, Craig Issod (fire@k2nesoft) adds:
Tim, those are all good concerns and real issues. We have sold ventless
for a few years and many of these have come up. We can discuss them as we
go along, and Hearth and Home mag is doing a big article on them next issue--but
, more importantly, let me vent my frustration about what is happening at
the HPA (as regards Gas, The big guys, ventless, etc.)
I was invited to sit at a session (by HEARTH education foundation) in March
at the HPA show. This was a discussion of Ventless products, with retailers,
distributors, etc. to discuss their experiences with the products. Last
week,they recinded the invitation (to me and to ALL the retailers). A little
digging led me to the conclusion that this event was SHUT DOWN by pressure
from the makers of Vent-Free products and their supporters. Wait, there's
more, the new panel consists of AGA and other Gas folks who will tell us
all the good things about their product and industry.
Frankly, I'm scared ! and very concerned--All of you should be too! The
HPA is on the verge of being taken away from you (the specialty retailer)
and put into the hands of the money men. The HPA has actually stated that
they feel Retailers would be confused by the debate about Vent Free! They
want to dictate what you can learn.
Other than paying my dues and teaching at a toolbox, I have not been very
actively invloved in this org.--That is going to change quickly. !
I'd appreciate thoughts on this subject.
Craig Issod
Stoveworks Inc.
CHI Associates
________________________________________________________________
SUBJECT #2
On Oct 23, Craig Issod ([email protected]) writes:
OK, I know this is a commercial , but we don't have too many posts yet to
the list, and many of you may be interested in this:
INTERNET !
Put Your Hearth Business on the Information Superhighway
for less than the cost of one week's Newspaper Ad !
Announcing HEARTHNET at "hearth.com"
Let me explain: I put my Hearth Business on the net just two months ago,
and I have already done over $10,000 worth of business DIRECTLY FROM THESE
CUSTOMERS. But I have one problem-- too many inquiries are coming in from
all over North America !
I don't want to steal your customers: These folks want information, and
they want to buy ! So far, I've just been sending them info, or telling
them to look in the yellow pages for a dealer near them.
I do have some experience: I've been in the Stove and Energy business for
17 years, and have experience in Retail, Importing and Manufacturing. My
new company, CHI Associates, is involved in Business and Computer consulting.
Hearthnet is one of CHI's newest projects.
What's the deal: I will author color World Wide Web (like a color brochure)
pages for your business. These pages tell your story to the more than 10
million US users of the net (expected to double within a year). I will then
post these pages on a centralized area that is specific to Hearth Products
(which will be heavily promoted). The site will contain a lot of general
information, as well as a directory where they can find your store's information
and pages. All leads coming in through email will also be forwarded to your
company.
Only a few Choosen: In order to give the maximum value to each member of
the "hearthnet" community, only one dealer from each area will
be listed on the site. I am looking for a select group of forward-thinking
retailers (about 100 nationwide) to share in this bounty. It will be First
come, First served from each geographic area.
How Much ?: One page (with Pictures, phone #, Address , Directions to your
store, etc.) is $250. This includes storage on the Net for one year ! A
larger site (up to 4 pages) will cost $395. For those who want a bigger
site , custom jobs can be arranged.
More info: If you would like to sign up for this service, or if you want
more information, please fax your name, address and telephone # to 609-654-2114
or call my voice mail at 609-654-7140. For those of you who are online on
any service, you can email to: [email protected]
Craig Issod, President , Chi Associates
End of commercial Back to Top
_____________________________________________________________________
SUBJECT #3
BAD HEARTH SEASON ?
On Oct. 23, Craig Issod ([email protected]) writes:
OK, what's going on out there ? I talked to one dealer (in business 20 years)
who said they are down 75% for the first three weeks of October. Our store
is down 25% or more for Sept and Oct (maybe I should be happy). Market forces
are quickly changing, with the Ventless craze, mass Merchants (Ventless
24" logs are being sold for $239. by one mass retailer near here
), and Heating and LP guys all grabbing for some of the pie.
It seems to me that it may get to the point when specialty retailers will
have to judge their suppliers as to whether they support the Specialty Retailer
or do they just want to sell whoever comes across with the $$. One thing
for sure, things are changing at a fast pace.
How's the retail climate everywhere else.?
Craig Issod
End of issue #2 of Hearth Retailers Mailing list:
PLEASE ! We want posts from ALL members with anything to say.(new product
announcements, opinions, experiences, aggravations)
The list is still small (11 members) but it will be growing.
Craig Back to Top
10/25/95
1. How are Sales, What's going on ? (2 posts)
2. HPA, Ventless, Hearth (2 posts)
In this Issue:
1. How are Sales, What's going on ? (2 posts)
2. HPA, Ventless, Hearth (2 posts)
1. In a message dated 95-10-23 20:08:23 EDT, Craig Issod ([email protected])
wrote:
>OK, what's going on out there ? I talked to one dealer (in business
20
>years) who said they are down 75% for the first three weeks of October.
Our
>store is down 25% or more for Sept and Oct (maybe I should be happy).
Jim Butchart ([email protected]) responds
Yikes! We were very concerned this past spring because we were down 44%
for
the month of March compared with the previous year. It was the worst month
in four years. We had very lousy weather. We had two 100 year floods within
two months! We have been bouncing around ever since. In July we 35% above
last year and it's held that trend since. The catagory that has saved our
bacon is gas. Gas inserts are the "hot" item this year. We are
also doing a
lot more gas fireplaces than ever before. We dumped pellets this year. They
have accounted for roughly 5-10% of our sales and I would guess 25-30% of
our
service nightmares. Gas just makes more sense to me.
We still haven't seen fall weather here in Northern California yet. We had
a
barbeque yesterday for our employees and it had to be pushing 80 degrees
out.
(This while watching the Denver/KC game being played in the driving snow!)
Even with the weather as gorgious as it has been we have been pretty busy
installing for those folks that know sooner or later it is going to get
cold
and they want to be ready. Next month the rush will be on. The builders
are
still busy here so we have been doing a lot of big-ticket fireplaces
(Xtrordinair) for this time of year. We have six to install in the next
week. So we are feeling pretty good and have confidence the year will be
a
great one.
One thing is for sure -- we can't run our business the same every year.
As
traditional as the fireplace is, trends are continually changing and we
absolutely have to "feel" what our customers are going to want.
One product that is coming on as a trend that does not "feel"
good to me is
ventless. Currently they are illegel in my state. They are being sold,
somehow. However they will never be in my store. All the reasons will have
to be in another post. Most are pretty obvious.
Jim Butchart
Hearth & Color Shop
Fireside Specialties
[email protected]
_________________________________________
To the same question, Tim Nissen( [email protected]) responds:
1995 has been lagging about 10% behind 1994, month to month, a record
September being the exception. Home Fire Stove has two parts: Hearth
Products, retail & Hearth Products, builder. The builder business is down
about 20%, but housing starts are off worse than that, so I take some
comfort. The retial business is up about 7% or so, year to date. The major
reason I can think of is that we jumped on the gas bandwagon early and
largely have our act together compared to the competition when the job
involves gas piping and any degree of complexity. Of note, wood appliance
sales are up 7%; gas appliance sales are up 25%, and pellet appliance sales
are off 50% for the third quarter. We're adjusting product mix on the floor.
_______________________
2. Ventless Stoves and the HPA
On Oct 23, Craig Issod (fire@k2nesoft) Wrote:
>
>Tim, those are all good concerns and real issues. We have sold ventless
for a few years and many of these have come up. We can discuss them as we
go along, and Hearth and Home mag is doing a big article on them next issue--but
, more importantly, let me vent my frustration about what is happening at
the HPA (as regards Gas, The big guys, ventless, etc.)
>
>I was invited to sit at a session (by HEARTH education foundation) in
March at the HPA show. This was a discussion of Ventless products, with
retailers, distributors, etc. to discuss their experiences with the products.
Last week,they recinded the invitation (to me and to ALL the retailers).
A little digging led me to the conclusion that this event was SHUT DOWN
by pressure from the makers of Vent-Free products and their supporters.
Wait, there's more, the new panel consists of AGA and other Gas folks who
will tell us all the good things about their product and industry.
>
>Frankly, I'm scared ! and very concerned--All of you should be too!
The HPA is on the verge of being taken away from you (the specialty retailer)
and put into the hands of the money men. The HPA has actually stated that
they feel Retailers would be confused by the debate about Vent Free! They
want to dictate what you can learn.
>
>Other than paying my dues and teaching at a toolbox, I have not been
very actively invloved in this org.--That is going to change quickly. !
>
>I'd appreciate thoughts on this subject.
>
>Craig Issod
>Stoveworks Inc.
>CHI Associates
____________________________
Tim Nissen responded:
Subject: Re: Ventless and HPA
I will get specific copy within a few days, but I understand that the
ventless group of GAMA have a large amount of money that they have raised
through taxing themselves, and are spending this money in aggressively
attacking all of their critics. I have heard second hand that another dealer
in New Jersey, who wrote to Hearth N Home expressing concerns about ventless
gas products, received a letter from a lawyer at Covington and Burling,
a big
time expensive DC law firm threatening to sue him unless he retracted.
I had an opportunity to read an early draft of Dan Melcon's article on
ventless that appeared in the most recent version of H & H. Even though
he
took a very even handed approach, the article was still severly edited (it
even appeared that whole parts of it, and two related articles were
inadvertently left out) from the most recent edition. H & H is a fine
publication, but the advertisors pay the bills.
That's why this forum is so important. Give voice to your opinions and areas
of concern. Recruit your best friends and competitors to be a part of this
group.
Speaking of Melcon; I fed him a lot of info on my thoughts about and
experience with the internet for a short article that will be in the next
issue of H & H. I also will have an article in the next issue of HPA
Newsletter.
This is very exciting.
______________________________________
On Oct 24, Craig Issod ([email protected]) responds and adds:
Spoke to a number of folks in the last day RE:HPA, Gas ventless manufacturers
and HEARTH. 100% of the folks I talked to seem to have a similar opinion,
that is they are concerned with what appears to be the direction of HPA
( in bed with big $$ GAMA/AGA etc.)...Carter (HPA President) called me late
this afternoon and we spoke at length. He seems genuinely concerned, and
I (being the eternal optimist) would like to believe that , in this case,
he just doesn't know or understand how the rank and file (us) feel. So,
I think we should make certain to tell him. I have nothing against gas,
wood, coal or any fuel--it's just that I think the HPA should define itself
as an org dedicated to the Specialty Retail Trade--as of now, it has no
such charter.
Craig
Please send all responses to [email protected] - If you are sending a private
message (to Craig Issod , and not to the list) be sure to specify.
Thanks,
Craig
Buddha said "Avoid Error" (don't you wish!) Back
to Top
11/01/95
Hearth Retailers #4 Digest
In this Issue:
1. More thoughts on HPA's leanings
2. HS TARM Annnounces new Web Site
3. hearth.com up and running (totally under construction!)
4. Season is finally here!
5. Speaking as a Rep
1. Thoughts on HPA
In Retailers #3 , Craig Issod ([email protected]) wrote:
>Frankly, I'm scared ! and very concerned--All of you should be too!
The
>HPA is on the verge of being taken away from you (the specialty retailer)
>and put into the hands of the money men.
Jim Butchart ( [email protected] ) answers:
I think we are on the verge of understanding that the HPA has always been
an
association of Hearth Product Manufacturers. They just left out the 'M'
in
HPA. We are invited to their annual trade show (for $365) because without
the retailers they wouldn't have much. They can't All sell to the mass
merchandisers. I got the feeling when I heard Carter speak to the Northern
California/Nevada HPA meeting this past spring that the HPA management is
scrambling to justify itself to dealers. I know I ask myself every year
when
I write that check... "What have they done for me lately?" I think
it is time
that there be an association of Hearth Product Dealers. I would gladly send
my money to support that group. I would imagine the manufacturers would
invite us to attend their annual show... for free!
Craig continues:
Back to Top
[snip]
> ...I think the HPA should define itself as an org dedicated to the
Specialty Retail
>Trade--as of now, it has no such charter.
Jim Butchart ( [email protected] ) answers:
I don't think that will ever happen.
Thoughts?
Jim Butchart (rable rouser?)
Hearth & Color Shop
Fireside Specialties
Santa Rosa, CA [email protected]
__________________________________________________________
2. HS TARM Central Heating has new site
Craig Issod ([email protected]) writes:
I have posted a new site on the HearthNet server for TARM USA. The address
is
http://hearth.com/tarm/hs.html
Check out these great heating machines (I used to own the company--I should
know)
Craig Issod
([email protected])
__________________________________________________________
3. HearthNet and Net Gossip
Craig Issod ([email protected]) writes:
The name registration hearth.com has gone through, and the very beginnings
of the site can be seen at http://hearth.com or http://www.hearth.com.
The links may not take you anywhere, as it is totally under construction.
Any Retailers or manufacturers interested in a presence on HearthHet can
contact me at [email protected] or at [email protected].
Tommorrow, Wednesday, I'm off to the Internet World show in Boston in the
hope that I can get some Idea of what's going on ! Since millions of Folks
are working on thousands of futuristic Web project, it's easy to feel overwhelmed
!
I welcome any Internet Questions from this group, either posted to the group
(OK for now, since there is not a whole lot of chat going on yet) or addresses
to me privately.
By next week, I'll have a more fitting email address for posts to this list--something
like [email protected] --- easy to remember.
__________________________________________________________
4. Season underway--Hope it doesn't end early this year !
Craig Issod ([email protected]) writes:
Finally, some action out there. We ended up October only 20% off of last
year (but still out 2nd best October ever).. Still, I wish there was more
wood action--and Ventless is still big news around here....
Craig
__________________________________________________________
5. Speaking as a Rep Date: Tue, 31 Oct 1995 20:55:52 -0500
Rob ([email protected]) writes:
Speaking as a Rep.
Sales in Ca are starting to take off. there are still a few ice cold spots
out there though. A lot of retalers out here are gone, which leaves a bunch
of Manufactures scrambling to find new homes in Ca. For those who where
lucky
enough to hold on , it should be a good season for them. As far as ventless
goes. I think its great if used in the right application. Air tight house
no,
but in older homes or drafty houses why not. Most people have a 40000 btu
ventless in their home anyway
( oven) but an oven doesn't burn as long.
__________________________________________________________
End of Digest
Hearth Retailers Mailing List--Send Posts to [email protected]
11/07/95
In this Issue
1. Finally some action
2. Screens for ventless ?
3. Partially Vented Logs
4. About this list
Everyone must be busy, since the list is not seeing any action...so I'll
put my two cents in (Craig speaking)
1. Action
Craig Issod (Stoveworks Inc, NJ) writes
Whew ! finally some cold weather and some action. We're selling wood stoves,
gas stoves and gas log at a decent clip now--won;t be as good as last year,
but we'll make a living. There has been a tendency for the season to start
later and go on later in the past few year (If you manufacturers are listening,
PLEASE stretch your dating terms out longer !).
2. Screens for ventless ?
Craig Issod (Stoveworks) writes
Reading the newest Hearth and Home --point counterpoint about ventless,
was very interesting. The spokewoman from the "gang of 19" says
that the open fire thing is not an issue, since all ventless products are
required to have screens. I've been to the TEMCO factory, to seminars, had
the reps and sales managers in my store countless times, and they have never
informed me of this. I'm all for it, of course... I will inform my sales
people today that the customers buying logs should be told about this.
I'll also check the old and new manuals from Temco and Haughs to see if
this is something I've overlooked.
Even on the Fireplaces that have screens (pull across type), the customer
will not use it. It get way too hot to touch within a few minutes of use,
and pull screens are a pain anyway. Maybe as they improve these things,
they could make this setup more user friendly.
3. Partially Vented Logs
The new logs from Peterson and Northstar (from Canada) that allow the damper
to be mostly closed and use 30-50K BTU seem like a good in-between option
for many folks. Any of you out there have any opinions or experience ?
4. About this list
It's growing slowly, now about 20 folks on the list...I think we will build
critical mass at around 100. Please don't be shy about posting questions,
comments or opinion to the list. Any Topic revolving around Hearth or The
Net is welcome.
Send all posts to the list to [email protected] (Craig Issod).
Thanks,
Craig Back to Top
11/08/95
1. This and That-
TIM Nissen Writes:
X-POP3-Rcpt: fire@k2nesoft
From: [email protected]
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 1995 00:02:12 -0500
To: [email protected]
Subject: This &
That
1. October 1995 was the best month ever for Home Fire Stove in terms of
the
amount of business invoiced. We did as much business in a month as we did
in
the whole year of 1986, or 85 or 84 or 83. For the operating year since
July
, wood fueled appliance sales are up slightly, gas is about even with last
year (and 70% of our business) and pellet stove sales are off close to 50%.
It's ironic that now that we finally have reliable pellet stoves to sell
the
market is in the tank. The problem is that in Oregon 100,000 btu's of
natural gas costs .65, 100,000 btu's of seasoned oak costs about .50, 100
k
of pellet heat cost $1.00, and propane is about $1.05, (but it is cleaner,
more convenient, more reliable than pellet). Am always interested in the
specific trends that other dealers are experiencing.
2. Was somewhat bemused by Butchart's mild tirade about the HPA. I used
to
feel the same way, you know, about the HPA being the tool of and in the
pocket of "eastern fireplace manufacturers." But I served on the
Board for
over four years and found that the organization was composed of
manufacturers, retailers, distributers, reps and others who were hearth
business people just like me. I also observed that 90% of being effective
involved showing up for the meetings, speaking up and doing something. Right
now the ventless "Gang of 19" is showing up and being involved.
I have no
interest at all in a separate organization of hearth product retailers,
separate trade shows, etc. etc. I do have an interest in making sure that
HPA
continues to recognize that close to half of its numeric membership and
a
good proportion of its financial resources stem from the speciality retailer.
3. I still need accounting software that is networkable and takes the
process from cradle (initial bid) to grave (ongoing service relationship),
is
easy to learn, not $20,000, and lends itself to complex speciality retailing.
Come one now, what are you guys using?
4. Is anyone selling the Hearthstone or VC Vent free product? What do you
think of it? How is it affecting your sales of vented product? How do you
qualify the customer? What problems are you having?
5. Are either the Whitfield or Vermont Castings decorative gas logs any
good? Why would I want to sell them over Hargrove or Peterson?
6. What's on your mind these days? Please let us all know via this mail
list.
___________________________________________________________________________
End of Digest Back to Top
11/09/95
In this Issue:
1. Thoughts on Usenet--From Noel Gilmore (Autumn Moon Fireplaces)
2. Content for HearthNet
Hearth Mailing List...To subscribe, send email to [email protected] or [email protected]
To unsubscribe, send email stating Unsubscribe in subject or text body
In this Issue:
1. Thoughts on Usenet--From Noel Gilmore (Autumn Moon Fireplaces)
2. Content for HearthNet
1. Thoughts on Usenet from [email protected] (Noel Gilmore)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 1995 14:59:04 -0500
To: [email protected]
From: [email protected] (Noel Gilmore)
Subject: Usenet
I've been reading the newsgroup, misc.consumers.house, and have seen several
questions in it about fireplaces and appear to be the sole rep from the
industry responding which is not so hot 'cause I HARDLY know all there is
to know. Thought some of you might want to look in and respond with helpful
and knowledgeable advice.
MAY I SUGGEST that we be careful about blatantly contradicting each other...as
in "What a stupid idea that is...anyone who knows anything about fireplaces
knows that you're supposed to..." More diplomatic means might be employed,
such as, "I never tried what Noel Gilmore suggested but have tried
doing such and such and found it to work well in this circumstance."
See what I mean? We are bound to have different opinions on how to solve
a person's problem, but it would be better to present ourselves, the professionals,
in a united front.
Just the other day someone wrote that after inspection his sweep assured
him it would be okay to remove the gas logs in his masonry fireplace and
resume burning wood, and someone else responded that he shouldn't take the
word of a sweep but should employ a mason to make the decision because they
knew much more about brick and about code. In my area of the country, that
would be totally untrue, but I never got around to straightening the guy
out for taking a swipe at sweeps!
You can always respond privately to the individual poster rather than respond
in the newsgroup for millions to read (!) if that makes you feel more comfortable.
But all in all it seems like a good idea for industry professionals to respond
with truth rather than consumer rumor.
Of anyone knows of other newsgroups where hearth-related questions are being
posted, please pass it on.
Noel Gilmore
Autumn Moon Fireplaces
Port St. Lucie, FL
_________________________________________________________
2. Submissions, Ideas for HearthNet content From Craig Issod ([email protected])
As many of you may know, I am starting a Central Hearth Site that will feature
lots of general information along with Shops and Products that the customer
can visit. In order to make the site as interesting as possible, i need
good content...I am looking for suggestions, along with articles, papers
and other information about Hearth products. These will be included in the
"what's it all about?" section. No, I can't pay for your submissions,
but I will give credit on the big screen. So, dig out those old articles
you've written, and email or mail them my way...or , give me suggestions
as to the best books with hearth info (I'll contact the publishers)....
Email: [email protected]
Mail: Craig Issod, Stoveworks --#1 Branch Street, Medford, NJ 08055
Thanks,
Craig
_________Back to Top_________________________________________
11/20/95
1. November Shaping Up !
2. New Post to Address for this list
1. November appears to be shaping up ! In fact, it could be one of our
best ever (or close to it). For those who don't know, we run
Stoveworks, with two stores in the Southern NJ area (outside of Phila).
Selling lots of good stuff, like woodstoves, gas inserts and
fireplaces--along with tons of vented and ventless gas logs. Amazingly,
Vented logs are still outselling the ventless.
Only question now is how long it will last. If we get a good cold
streak (it's sure cold tonite), then we could have a good Dec/Jan/Feb
and I'll go into spring smiling !
2. I have created a new address which will make posts to this mailing
list easier.... just send your posts to [email protected] - that
should be easy to remember (add it to your mailing address book)
Please, now that things may be starting to be under control, post some
topics to the list. Also, we need more members (growing, but slowly).
11/26/95 Back to Top
1. News From Canada
2. November not bad !
3. New Domain Name
4. More Manufacturers joining HearthNet
Hearth Digest #8 Cc: Bcc:
hearth X-Attachments: Message-Id:
Still slow on the old list, but slowly buiding up steam
1.Date: Sun, 26 Nov 1995 15:41:19 -0500 Subject: News from Canada
Reply-to: [email protected]
We do have a few minutes to breathe now. Since the Quebec referendum
went for the No side (Quebec will not separate(yet) from Canada), we in
Eastern Ontario have breathed, in fact, a collective sigh of relief. We
have had a brisk fall with Sept, Oct and Nov quite busy months. Gas
sales(Inserts, fireplaces and free-standing stoves), of course, have
risen the most, but wood is still our strongest seller. Pellet stoves
are moving here too at a steady pace. Ventless appliances are not
approved in Canada, so right now, it's not an issue. With our high
standards for insulated building envelopes and air quality, I cannot
see them making any headway for approval here.
Are there any manufacturers on the net? I have not turned up much in my
searches.
>From the source of those cold winds from Canada which occasionally
sweep over the US Pat Kerr Sunworks Inc.
Pat Kerr
[email protected] [email protected]
________________________________________________________________________
2.Jim Butchart [email protected] Says:
The numbers are in for November. We were off by 5% for the month from
last year. Wierd month. It was in the 70s most days. I think it
sprinkled one day. It has been flooding at my parents place in Oregon
but here... everybody is out playing golf. There is absolutely no snow
up at Tahoe. Pretty grim. The one thing I think we have going for us
is the economic news is pretty bright here for a change. The area here
is expected to go through some pretty major growth. The prediction is
for 93,000 more jobs to be created over the next 20 years for the
county. Our freeway should be a whole lot of fun then! We barely
crawl through town as it is. -- Jim Butchart [email protected]
Hearth &
Color........(707)526-3322 Retail Fireside
Specialties..(707)526-3325 Wholesale "Do or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda
_____________________________________________________________________________
3. Date: Thu, 07 Dec 1995 19:35:38 -0800 From: Jim Butchart
Organization: Hearth & Color MIME-Version:
1.0 To: hearth list Subject: New address
It's official! I have a new address that will (someday) hold our own
web pages. Meanwhile it will be a nifty email bin.
The only site on the net where flames are enjoyed!
-- Jim Butchart [email protected] Hearth &
Color........(707)526-3322 Retail Fireside Specialties..(707)526-3325
Wholesale "Do or do not. There is no try." -Yoda
_______________________________________________________________________________
4.Craig Issod ([email protected]) writes:
Pat Kerr from Canada says:
>Are there any manufacturers on the net? I have not turned up much in
>my searches. > >>From the source of those cold winds from Canada
which
occasionally >sweep over the US >Pat Kerr >Sunworks Inc. > >
Pat
Kerr
Craig Issod Replies:
Jotul and Travis Industries are now on HearthNet at
http://hearth.com/travis and http://hearth.com/jotul. There are many
more under construction and on the way. Please feel free to kink your
pages to them.
11/21/95
#1..What's up with Jotul in canada ?
#2. Mass Merchants
#3. Happy
Holidays
From ???@??? Thu Dec 21 22:38:57 1995 To: From: [email protected]
(Craig Issod) Subject: Hearth Digest- Holiday Cc: Bcc: Hearth
X-Attachments: Message-Id:
Hearth Digest - Holiday Edition Please Post replies to
[email protected]
#1..What's up with Jotul in canada ? #2. Mass Merchants #3. Happy
Holidays
1. Jotul in Canada
From: "Pat Kerr" Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995
14:02:20
-0500 Subject: Re: Jotul Distributor in Canada Reply-to:
[email protected]
We have just received notification that as of Jan 1, 1996, Cordyline
Enterprises of Toronto, Canada, will no longer be responsible for
distributing Jotul products in Canada. This ends a history of 16
years. Ragnar Beck and Cordyline have been synonomous with Jotul
quality and service for these many years. We are very sad to see them
go. We are referred to Jotul A.S. in Norway, by mail, phone or fax for
any further infor and service from Jotul. I do not know the inside
details of this break-up, but I do know that the appearance this year
of Jotul catalytic stoves, enamel and otherwise, in large warehouse
stores, such as Reno-Depot, at cut-rate prices was a burning thorn in
their side. The training for Reno-Depot salesmen in Jotul product was
given by a Jotul warehouser from Quebec. What is the future of
wood-stove retailing in North America? Any thoughts?
Bye for now, from the frozen North Pat Kerr Sunworks, Hawkesbury,
Ontario [email protected]
Pat Kerr
[email protected] [email protected]Back to Top
________________________________________________________________________
2. Mass Merchants Craig Issod ([email protected]) says:
Patt Kerr Writes:
>What is the future of wood-stove retailing in North America? >Any
thoughts?
I (Craig Issod) respond with my thoughts. The future of wood stove
retailing in North America is with the specialty retailer. Any Wood
stove maker who thinks otherwise is fooling themselves. As a retailer,
I personally favor companies that support the specialty retailer...I'm
not saying that I don;t have some products in my store from the guys
who sell to mass merchants - I do...But for instance we just threw
Haugh's Products out the door (from canada). They sell to a large farm
chain that sells the stuff for less than 20% over (low ) cost. We did
about 50K with them...if they lost a bunch of accounts like ours they
might start feeling it. If we have a choice, we will always support the
manufacturer that supports us. Travis Industries has been a good
example of a company that supports the "little guy". Vermont Castings
has also done pretty good, although the gas stuff has them sniffing in
a lot of other places. A good story for the manufacturers who are
listening. I called a rep for Yankee Candle Company (a very large
company--probably 50 -100 Million) to try to get the line in our store.
He came and visited and talked for awhile. A quote from him " Craig,
when we were a little company, all the big chains, Macy's etc. laughed
at us. Now that we are big, they are begging to carry our products. But
our President said - remember. it's the Ma and Pa shops that made
us...lets support them like they support us." Needless to say, Yankee
Candle does not sell to Macy's, etc. These days most of what I hear
from my reps are about how they are trying to get into the LP dealers
and other markets -- A Big Hint -- I don't really want to hear about
this ! Tell me how you are going to put money in our pocket !
Craig IssodBack to Top
_______________________________________________________________________
#3. Happy Holidays
Happy Holidays and a prosperous new year to Everyone on the List. Let's
try to make this list grow in the new year...and I want your resolution
to be WRITE TO THIS LIST MORE OFTEN.
Craig Issod
______________ Post replies to [email protected] From
12/26/95
1. Press Release From Jotul, USA
Hearth Digest 12/26/95
1. Press Release From Jotul, USA
PRESS RELEASE Contact: Eivind Lindqvist, Jotul USA, Portland ME,
(207)-797-5912 JØTUL EXPANDS ITS SERVICES IN CANADA
PORTLAND, ME - A change in the way Jøtul does business in Canada
will
make the company's newest lines of cast-iron home-heating stoves
available to Canadian stove dealers and homes.
Jøtul Norway has made a strategic choice to strenghten its position
in
Canada by making its North American subsidiary, Jøtul USA, responsible
for the company's Canadian operations as of January 1, 1996. Jøtul
has
been serving the Canadian market through distributors and dealers since
the 1950's, said Eivind Lindqvist, President of Jøtul USA. The new
arrangement will bring to Canada the clean burning Jøtul stoves
approved by the US Environmental Protection Agency.
"Our clean-buring wood stoves are a perfect fit for an environmentally
concious country like Canada," said Lindqvist.
Once the Canadian Gas Association has approved the gas-fired stoves now
being produced by Jøtul USA at its Portland, Maine facility, these
also
will become available in Canada. "We see Canada as a very interesting
gas market and are pleased to have this opportunity to begin
distributing our gas stoves there," Lindqvist said.
"The marketing programs of Jøtul's North American subsiiary,
which have
proven very successful in the United States, will benefit dealers and
their customes," Lindqvist said.
"With this direct connection, we will not only provide new Jotul
products to dealers in Canada, we will also improve our marketing
support and product and customer service." Lindqvist said.
Jøtul has beeen designing and manufacturing high quality home-heating
stoves since 1853. Today it is the world's largest woodstove producer.
Jøtul's attractive castiron stoves exceed the strictist emission
and
efficiency standards. For more information contact Jotul USa at 400
Riverside Street, Protland, Maine, 04104. Tel. 207-797-5912. Back
to Top
12/29/95
1. Input wanted - Jim Butchart ([email protected])
2. Vent-Free Products (Continued) - Craig Issod ([email protected])
Subject: Hearth Digest 12/29/95
Cc:
Bcc: hearth
X-Attachments:
Message-Id:
Hearth Digest 11/29/95 _ Please send posts to [email protected]
In this Issue:
1. Input wanted - Jim Butchart ([email protected])
2. Vent-Free Products (Continued) - Craig Issod ([email protected])
#1. Input Wanted
Greetings! (From Santa Rosa, Ca)
I trust your holiday was great and that you are looking forward to a
great new year.
We didn't set any records this year. As a matter of fact this is the
first year (out of 15 years) that we have not done better then the
previous year. We have a couple of days to go but right now we are 39%
behind December of last year but a little less than 2% off for the
entire year. As expected, gas has been our best catagory. It accounts
for 40% of our income and is up 10.4%. I'll spare you the details but
if you are interested in comparing percentages send me email and I will
be happy to share with you. Misery loves company ;=)
Here is where I could use your help. You are one of the few enlightened
ones in our industry who has seen the light and discovered it is the
Internet. I am sure you are aware that most in our industry don't even
own a computer. I can't fathom this. So here is the deal... I am
writing an article for our regional HPA newsletter "Hearth to Hearth"
about computer use, getting started, what's available, and what's
exciting. What I would like is for you to give me five minutes and
compose an email note and let me know how you use a computer at work as
a tool, how long have you been doing it, what you wouldn't be doing if
you didn't have the computer, what excites you about what's happening,
and whatever else comes to mind.
If everything goes as planned I will publish our next newsletter at my
web site and you can read what we are talking about here in Northern
California. I'll keep you posted! -- Jim Butchart
[email protected]
http://www.HearthShop.com
Hearth &
Color........(707)526-3322
Retail
Fireside Specialties..(707)526-3325
Wholesale "Do or do not. There is no try." -YodaBack
to Top
___________________________________________________
2. Vent-Free issues - Con't by Craig Issod
Craig Issod ([email protected]) writes
Way back in our first Hearth Digests, some discussions were had on
Vent-Free products, and the HPA's decision to cancel a
retailer/distributor forum at HPA pertaining to these issues. The HPA
stance was that a one-sided seminar (Given by GAMA) would better suit
and educate us retailers. I disagreed then, and after another season of
selling and installing Vent-Free, still disagree.
I recently had the pleasure of speaking to (by email ) Bob Borgeson and
Doug Dewerth, who work for the AGA (American Gas Association) Research.
According to Bob "We do R&D for American Gas Association Research.
We
did the vent-free research for GAMA. You probably have seen the bunch
of graphs which GAMA distributes -- our preliminary work."
This great, as I applaud continuing research.
It so happened that our retail shop was having a problem with a
particular Vent-Free installation (a sooting problem in the home, but
not in the firebox). After checking everything, it was my determination
that the logs were fine, but the problems stemmed from many factors
including heavy usage, two smokers in the home, new home (outgassing of
building products), dogs in the home (excess dust to clog the burner
and create cobwebs in the home, etc. I emailed Bob asking if they had
done or were doing any "real world" testing on these products.
His
answer, which surprised me greatly, was that none was being done , and
none was planned. According to Bob, the money was not there.
Now, Folks, I'm not the type of guy to count other people's $$$, but I
know we did real world studies on Woodstoves and Pellet Stoves, and it
seems to me the Ventless Manufacturers surely could spare the funds.
I'm concerned cause another winter has gone by. I definitely (and
wrongly) assumed that these tests were being worked on !
I'm fairly sure that Bob and Doug are the guys who will be doing the
"changed" seminar at HPA. Without pointing any fingers, I truly
wish
HPA would have let us retailers talk with each other and learn from our
real world experiences.
Your comments , Please.
Happy New Year !!
Craig Issod ([email protected]) Back to Top
01/04/96
1 What is Hearthlist ?
2.New Years Awards
3. Builders and Payment
4. GAMA Press Release
To:
From: [email protected] (Craig Issod)
Subject: Hearth Digest 1/4/96
Cc:
Bcc:
X-Attachments:
Message-Id:
Happy New Year !Back to Top
1 What is Hearthlist ?
2.New Years Awards
3. Builders and Payment
4. GAMA Press Release
1.What is hearthlist ?
In #2 Below, Ken Fugione asks: Please explain the hearthlist mailing list.
Craig Issod (list MOM) explains: It is simple a free-form discussion group
(uncensored), which hopefully will allow each of us to share views and experience.
Members are either hearth retailers, manufacturers or hearth professionals
(marketing, etc.). The topics are "whatever goes", that is until
one starts talking about Star Trek, etc.
It is not (yet) an automatic list, which means I manually assemble the posts
and remail them. THe list still does not have a critital mass, cause we
only have 25 members or so...please tell anyone you know in the industry
to join up.
Please send any posts to [email protected]
hearthlist is totally not-for-profit and never intends to be. It should
be owned by the members !
____________________________________________________________
2. New Years Awards -
To: [email protected]
From: DirectFire
Subject: what is hearthlist & our awards for 1995
It has just turned a new year and I am already responding to
hearthlist. This must be a sign of the good organization and self
disapline to come .... either that or an indication that it is slow as
usual between christmas and new year. ... and I started this letter back
then.... so now I have to finish it.
1) What and why is hearthlist and who am I adressing here? How
about a quick intro for us newbies that love to jibber jabber so we know
who
what and why... if not ..... at least ..... who for art included there in....
2) ONE HAND CLAPPING......I love to seeing the Hearth Industry grow
and mature as long as the people remain real. It has been fun over the
years ..except for a few of those guys who say to us ..... "we just
want to
grow the business"..... when they what they really want is to sell
down
the road or next door in your town to everybody ...greed thru competition
breeding. For the most part every Rep or roadie that has come in the door
for the Hearth Induststry has been willing to polish & dust their products
and try to be helpful and friendly... or at least honest. In 18 years I
can
only think of a few we threw out of the store... and in almost every case
we
opened the door first.
3) We want to share with you a quick rundown of the Energy Store
Leisure Home Center's ~ "HEARTH INDUSTRY AWARDS FOR 1995". Some
of you
probably wont have the slightest idea who we are talking about but ....
that's OK ......we feel they are worth the mention.... SO STOP READING IF
YOU WANT.
"REP OF THE YEAR 1995" ~.... Uncle Miltie ...Milt Cerini from
CFM
USA.. At least I think he was a Rep... in any case, after 14 years of
visits with Uncle Miltie in many different capacities..... he made it
through the entire season without once taking a nap at my front counter...
this is a first!!! Must be he's excited about what is happening with the
CFM and Majestic purchase this year. We enjoy Milt and always find time
for him.... after he has dusted and polished the CFM product displays in
our showroom.
"DISTRIBUTOR OF THE YEAR 1995" ~..... well we think our wholesale
division is the best distributor in our area... but we got out voted by
our
retail division ...... they feel that Copperfield is still the best show
available.... not necessarily the best prices, but they always have it and
they ship it quick and they are organized .... something for our wholesale
division to aim at for next year.
"MANUFACTURER OF THE YEAR 1995" ~.... Vermont Castings has been
good
to us this year. They have done a great job with getting new products to
market (although late) that work right out of the box. But we have to
give this award to CFM and the Insta Flame Line of Gas products. This is
our third season with CFM and we had our first warranty problem this year.
So now we know they are human and that they will help us fix problems....
One warranty in 3 years, with hundreds in operation ....... Don't we wish
they all worked that well. Sorry, we had to get a problem to recognize your
efforts. It works ....keep it so.
"OUT THE DOOR AWARD"~... This is a new one for us and we hope
we
never give it again [in fact, we would like to take it back still] ....
after 16 years of doing business together it's good bye to Travis
Industries for us in 1995. It's a long story I am always willing to share
because of the bad taste .... drop me a line if you want the dirt... the
only satisfaction I can get is to tell other dealers how shabby Travis
treated us after 16 years of doing business together..
"MOST ENTHUSIATIC HEARTH ASSOCIATE WE NEVER MET IN 1995" ~.....
Well this one is a first also because we have never met him personally .....
but the ideas and spirit being generated to take the Hearth Industry into
its next LEVEL of communication makes Craig Issod a shoe in here. The effort
to establish the Hearth Industry on the Net is a large undertaking we all
can be a part of. Craig has done his part well, in establishing a forum
and media site for us to link and gather. Now it is up to us, the present
users, to encourage our local Associations and the National to get involved.
"PRODUCT OF THE YEAR" ~ .... There is no question in our mind
that
DuraVent hit the market at the right time with the right product.... The
new
DV Gas Vent was explosive this season. They did a good job of getting it
approved everywhere .... They did it first and they made a good quality
product..... (of course they blew it when it comes to distribution because
they forgot their existing distributors in their rush to get it every where
on the market. This could have been their year to build a DuraVent loyalty
base) But they definately had the Hearth Product of the Year for 1995 so
they get the nod from us. I don't know of anyone that sells gas hearth
appliances that doesn't use and love this DuraVent Product.
"BLOOPER OF THE YEAR" ~..... Hearth & Home Magazine (I really
love
you and I read it faithfully) gets the nod here, for an editorial
mis-reporting the intent of the HPA Board of Directors with regards to
recognizing that all businesses that sell Hearth Products should be allowed
to be a part of the Hearth Products Assocation. The HPA Board did not turn
it's back on it's foundation..... the specialty retail shops ... and open
it's arms to Mass Merchants..... They just recognized that HPA is
responsible to represent ALL Hearth Product Dealers....
And of course the Pellet Controversy will never go away. So,
Richard, stay in the heat of it .... you can't be a great mag. if you don't
step on a pie or two along the way. May you always make a blooper.
"R&D TEAM OF THE YEAR AWARD" ~ .... This is a special recognition
award for the Research & Development efforts that are being made beyond
what
should be expected. This award goes to the TEAM that is continually
working on product that is not quite ready for market , fixing production
mistakes, creating field repairs, reporting how to improve product
operations..... creating a professional image while working with a sowes
ear
in some cases. This has to be a TEAM award again this year .... to all
of the DEALERS that are selling and installing Gas Products in the Hearth
Industry. We, the dealer network, are the R&D Team. In the rush to get
it to market first, and to make it better quicker ...... our manufacturers
are too often shipping product that is troublesome and poorly tested. If
we
are going to reach a level of maturity beyond the "I got a torch and
some
metal so I'll weld me up a woodstove and sell some" .... then we need
to
have better R&D and testing before you ship Product to market, especially
Gas product. I am amazed that we haven't blown up more homes with some of
the poorly tested equipment that reaches the market. >Slow down and do
it
right the first time Mr. Manufacturer. If your dealer network ever gets
it together and begins to charge you for all of the returns calls and field
fixes that they have had to make you'll find that doing it right the first
time is cheaper, and that adding proper staff to your R&D is also a money
saver ... Because you didn't realize the air baffle was in the wrong place
or the orfice size was wrong or the restrictor plate needed to be installed
or the vynal deflector was built wrong, or the burner tube needed some
additional holes ....... the dealer is loosing time and profits fixing
shoddy factory mistakes. We are not pioneering a new industry gentlemen.
There are standards and most manufacturers should know what a test lab
is.... and... hey, you can always do the unthinkable ..... like ask your
dealers for their opinions and advice. Try a simple test market. But I
belabor the Award by voicing too little praise. Keep those Gas appliances
running safely.... all you Scotties in the field.
"CUSTOMER REQUEST OF THE YEAR" ~..... I got an 800 call from a
customer that was looking for a video tape of a fireplace fire that they
could play on their TV. (And, no..... she wasn't calling from California)
So being a helpful guy, I made a pirate copy of a great fire and sent it
along to her with some burnt wood insense for $8.95. I only wish I had
thought to dub in some sounds of a crackling fire and that I had charged
her
$49.95 'cause it turned out rather well if I must say so myself. Bring on
the HOLOGRAMS... and watch out gas your match is out.
Well enough already.... all the awards are out and I've got ads to
create for the mid-winter clearance sales. Have a prosperous and enjoyable
new year.
Ken
_________________________________
[email protected]
Visit our NetShowrooms
http://www.hearth.com/directfire/
[email protected]
_________________________________
~\!|!/~
(Q ~)
-----------ooO~(_)~Ooo-----------------
Keep a Little Fire in your Hearth
=========================
______________________________
3. Builders and Payment
Date: Tue, 02 Jan 1996 23:12:33 -0800
From: Jim Butchart
Organization: The Fireplace People @ Hearth &
Color Shop
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Craig Issod
Subject: Builder Business
Hi Craig,
Thanks for the note on computer use. Now if I could just get everyone else
to quit playing Doom long enough to let me know how they use their
computers...
I had a builder screw me out of my paycheck today. So tomorrow I have to
sit
down and lay some policy on paper and let my folks know I don't want it
happening anymore. It dawned on me, as I lay in bed tonight, that I heard
Tim
Nissen talk at Travis about builder business and how wonderful it is.
I actually started this note to Tim but thought this might be a good topic
for Tim, or anyone else, to expound on here in this forum.
How formal are your agreements with builders? How are changes handled when
you find the chimney system can't work the way it was discribed to you and
is
going to require more material? What happens when the builder hasn't sent
back a signed contract but wants you at the site tomorrow because the (pick
one) sheetrockers, roofers, plumbers, etc. will be there and can't finish
until you're done?
I'd like to see some policy statements that are law at your place. What
works?
--
Jim Butchart [email protected] http://www.HearthShop.com
Hearth &
Color........(707)526-3322 Retail
Fireside Specialties..(707)526-3325 Wholesale
"Do or do not. There is no try." -Yoda
_______________________________
4. GAMA Press Release
The following fire was sent in by Jim Butchart -- Both Jim and I (Craig
Issod) wonder why unvented safety is not being addressed in this release
NEWS from CPSC
U.S. CONSUMER PRODUCT SAFETY COMMISSION
OFFICE OF INFORMATION AND PUBLIC AFFAIRS
WASHINGTON, D.C. 20207
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE CONTACT: Kate Premo
November 13, 1995 (301) 504-0580 Ext. 1187
Release # 96-016
CPSC, GAMA ISSUE WARNINGS ON VENTED GAS SPACE HEATERS
WASHINGTON, D.C. The U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) and
the
Gas Appliance Manufacturers Association (GAMA) are warning consumers to
have
their vented gas space heaters professionally inspected every year to avoid
carbon monoxide
poisoning.
According to CPSC, improper venting of propane and natural gas space
heaters is a major cause of CO poisoning from vented gas space heaters.
If
the heater is not vented properly, not vented at all, or if the vent is
blocked, separated, rusted, or corroded, dangerous levels of carbon monoxide
can enter the home causing sickness and death. CO also can be produced if
the heater is not properly set up and adjusted for the type of gas used
and
the altitude at which it is installed.
"Each year, carbon monoxide poisoning kills more than 200 people and
sends 5,000 more to hospital emergency rooms," said CPSC Chairman Ann
Brown.
"Many of these poisonings can be avoided if consumers work with home
heating
professionals to make sure their appliances are properly installed."
CPSC and GAMA warn people not to re-install used space heaters. "We've
seen too many cases where people buy a used space heater and install it
themselves. Too many things can go wrong, and with dangerous carbon monoxide,
it is not worth the risk," GAMA president Reuben Autery said.
Carbon monoxide is extremely dangerous because it is invisible and
odorless and its symptoms (headache, dizziness, sleepiness, nausea, vomiting,
or confusion) are similar to common illnesses like the flu. People
frequently die from CO while they are sleeping.
To maintain their safety, vented space heaters should be installed by
a professional contractor and inspected every year. Consumers are not
qualified to spot potential vent, maintenance, or installation problems.
According to GAMA, the best time to have a heater inspected is prior to
the heating season.
Consumers can call (800) 603-9293 to receive a warning label and a free
brochure about vented gas heater safety. Consumers should check the phone
book or contact a local fuel supplier to find a qualified heating
contractor.
The U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission protects the public from
the unreasonable risk of injury or death from 15,000 types of consumer
products under the agency's jurisdiction. To report a dangerous product
or
a product-related injury and for information on CPSC's fax-on-demand
service, call CPSC's hotline at (800) 638-2772 or CPSC's teletypewriter
at
(800) 638-8270. To order a press release through fax-on-demand, call
(301) 504-0051 from the handset of your fax machine and enter the release
number. Consumers can obtain this release and recall information via
Internet gopher services at cpsc.gov or report product hazards to [email protected].
__________________
end of digest Back to Top
01/04/96
#1. Input Wanted
Greetings! (From Santa Rosa, Ca)
I trust your holiday was great and that you are looking forward to a
great new year.
We didn't set any records this year. As a matter of fact this is the
first year (out of 15 years) that we have not done better then the
previous year. We have a couple of days to go but right now we are 39%
behind December of last year but a little less than 2% off for the
entire year. As expected, gas has been our best catagory. It accounts
for 40% of our income and is up 10.4%. I'll spare you the details but
if you are interested in comparing percentages send me email and I will
be happy to share with you. Misery loves company ;=)
Here is where I could use your help. You are one of the few enlightened
ones in our industry who has seen the light and discovered it is the
Internet. I am sure you are aware that most in our industry don't even
own a computer. I can't fathom this. So here is the deal... I am
writing an article for our regional HPA newsletter "Hearth to Hearth"
about computer use, getting started, what's available, and what's
exciting. What I would like is for you to give me five minutes and
compose an email note and let me know how you use a computer at work as
a tool, how long have you been doing it, what you wouldn't be doing if
you didn't have the computer, what excites you about what's happening,
and whatever else comes to mind.
If everything goes as planned I will publish our next newsletter at my
web site and you can read what we are talking about here in Northern
California. I'll keep you posted! -- Jim Butchart
[email protected]
http://www.HearthShop.com
Hearth & Color........(707)526-3322
Retail
Fireside Specialties..(707)526-3325
Wholesale "Do or do not. There is no try." -Yoda
___________________________________________________
2. Vent-Free issues - Con't by Craig Issod
Craig Issod ([email protected]) writes
Way back in our first Hearth Digests, some discussions were had on
Vent-Free products, and the HPA's decision to cancel a
retailer/distributor forum at HPA pertaining to these issues. The HPA
stance was that a one-sided seminar (Given by GAMA) would better suit
and educate us retailers. I disagreed then, and after another season of
selling and installing Vent-Free, still disagree.
I recently had the pleasure of speaking to (by email ) Bob Borgeson and
Doug Dewerth, who work for the AGA (American Gas Association) Research.
According to Bob "We do R&D for American Gas Association Research.
We
did the vent-free research for GAMA. You probably have seen the bunch
of graphs which GAMA distributes -- our preliminary work."
This great, as I applaud continuing research.
It so happened that our retail shop was having a problem with a
particular Vent-Free installation (a sooting problem in the home, but
not in the firebox). After checking everything, it was my determination
that the logs were fine, but the problems stemmed from many factors
including heavy usage, two smokers in the home, new home (outgassing of
building products), dogs in the home (excess dust to clog the burner
and create cobwebs in the home, etc. I emailed Bob asking if they had
done or were doing any "real world" testing on these products.
His
answer, which surprised me greatly, was that none was being done , and
none was planned. According to Bob, the money was not there.
Now, Folks, I'm not the type of guy to count other people's $$$, but I
know we did real world studies on Woodstoves and Pellet Stoves, and it
seems to me the Ventless Manufacturers surely could spare the funds.
I'm concerned cause another winter has gone by. I definitely (and
wrongly) assumed that these tests were being worked on !
I'm fairly sure that Bob and Doug are the guys who will be doing the
"changed" seminar at HPA. Without pointing any fingers, I truly
wish
HPA would have let us retailers talk with each other and learn from our
real world experiences.
Your comments , Please.
Happy New Year !!
Craig Issod ([email protected])
____________________________________
End of Digest Back to Top
01/05/96
1. Greetings and Comments from John Crouch (for those who are not aware,
John is the Governmental Relations Guy for HPA and also all around good
guy !- ed.)
HearthNet Digest:1/5/96
1. Greetings and Comments from John Crouch (for those who are not aware,
John is the Governmental Relations Guy for HPA and also all around good
guy !- ed.)
X-POP3-Rcpt: fire@k2nesoft
Date: 05 Jan 96 13:43:26 EST
From: "JOHN D. CROUCH" [email protected]> To: Craig
Issod
Subject: hearthnet stuff
Some quick stuff from John Crouch.
(NOTE: the views expressed here DO NOT consittue HPA's or anybody else official
policy, they just reflect me on a friday morning prior to inputting suffiient
coffee.)
1. I have put a note in the January issue of the HPA news inviting folks
to send me their E-mail addresses. I'll pass them along to the net.
2. Chuck Brewster & Roger Sanders have lit a fire under my bottom regarding
computers and retailers. Asside from the Web site sub committe of the Communications
committe we may do a little Ad-hoc group that looks at road blocks to effective
data managment in hearth shops (sounds like the title of a paper, doesn't
it?)
It seems to me that information is the fundamental product that seperates
a specialty retailer from a mass merchant (MM). When MM's want to impress
consumers they try to look like super informed specialty shops. They also
push "lots of personal attention". What is personal attention
than "getting ALL you questions answered".
So if you buy the idea that information is salvation, then that leads you
to how do you manage all the information (which is you primay asset). The
basic hearth retaler approach is to keep it all in the owners head. This
limits the size of the company and leads to burn-out.
Roger Sanders (Bend, Oreegon) tells me that everyone is entering all of
the price lists and price changes by hand into their own systems. Brewster
talks about updateing distributor price lists by hand, especially chimney
and glass door lists. Image how much time is being spent throughout the
entire industry entering data that should be handed out on disks!
But there is not even a common format for the SKU's! The fields for prices,
descriptions, inventory numbers, etc, are all different! DOES ANYONE SCAN
THEIR INFO INTO THEIR SYSTEM? (I'm told the price lists have too much "other
garbage" on them to scan without so much OCR effort that it's not worth
it.)
Before we can really help to bring the average retailer up to speed on information
processing, we need to bring our information itself up to speed.
The real end product here, is POS, point of Sale software. But before we
think about that we have to help our folks take control of their information.
Our very strength as an industry, a wide variety of manufactures offering
a VERY wide variety of products, works against this goal. Unless and until
the retailers and distrbutors and reps insiste.
Enough of this soap box for now.
2. The TWO vent free seminars that HPA will host at Charlotte. No it will
not be the orginal plan A. Which would have involved a very entertaining
dialog (DEBATE) by a panel of "both sides". We've GOT to stop
polirising this discussion.
I think there are some people who don't understand why there is not a vent-free
product in every home in the U.S., and there are some folks who don't understand
why there are ANY vent-free products in homes in the U.S., and somewhere
in the middle are most of the people; trying to do a good job, trying to
size the product correctly, takeing it back if people can't get use to it,
etc.
That last group is who the seminars are for. Many, if not all, of the other
2 groups may or may not be total pleased with the discussion, because the
seminars will (hopefully) avoid absolutes.
The Sunday morning seminar will be just Doug Dewrth and his team. They have
sizing guidlines and application notes. These guys have researched gas appliances
for years. Doug knows more about Household gas appliances (Water heaters,
furnaces, direct vent wall furnaces) than anyone I know.
The last version of the sizing table I saw was not yet consumer friendly
(i.e. it was in cubic feet instead of sq ft of house) and the application
notes were not yet finalized, but there is good stuff on it's way for that
seminar.
Sunday afternoon is the place for problem questions. There will be a panel,
MODERATED BY HPA, not anyone else, and there will be time for questions.
enough for now.
Ken-Do you have a "Run on Sentence of the Year Award"?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As the men who had come to Phillidelphia to represent their states in a
Declaration of Independence gatherd around to actually SIGN the document,
they all hesitated, it might be their death sentence. Even after John Hancock
signed they hesitated. Franklin said, "Come Gentelmen, either we will
all hang together; or, we will surely all hang separately" Not a bad
analogy for specialy retailers.
john Back to Top
01/10/96
1. Builders and stuff from Tim Nissen
2. HearthNet in top 5% of Web Sites !
Subject: Hearth Digest 1/10/96
Cc:
Hello all, been in Vermont Skiing for a few days (heaven on earth on the
slopes)...Two messages in the digest
1. Builders and stuff from Tim Nissen
2. HearthNet in top 5% of Web Sites !
1. Tim Nissen, in response to Jim Butcharts comments about Builders, Travis
Industries and Life says:
From: [email protected]
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 13:23:18 -0500
To: [email protected]
Subject: Builders, Credit, Travis, vent free, business
1. I don't know of a fool proof way to extend credit and not get burned
occasionally. We write off about $5000 per year in bad debts. To cut down
on the amount we write off we do a few things. One, we try to set the
expectations up front. "We'll invoice you when we complete the job.
We'll
send you a statement summarizing things on the 25th, and we expect to be
paid
by the 10th. If we're not paid by the 15th you can expect a phone call and
follow-up as needed." We then use the Construction Contractors Board
and
local Small Claims Court. The lien and lien notice requirements are way
too
cumbersome and irritate the 98% who pay on time. I think the key is to
really stay on top of things and not let them slide.
2. I have to say that we sell Avalon, Lopi and Fireplace Xtrordinaire. We
think that they are good products, well represented, where we have a
reasonable amount of territory and excellent, responsive factory backup.
We
so face some aggressive discounting in adjacent markets, and quality/service
were not as good this year as last, but overall I give Travis a B+ and like
to think that I am a hard grader.
3. FYI - the Oregon Health Department submitted very strong testimony to
the
Oregon Building Code Officials opposing the installation of ventless gas
products in Oregon homes based on health hazards.
4. We finished the year down 1% with improved profitability so I'm not
complaining. Wood and gas were up slightly compared to last year and pellet
was off 45%. Luckily pellet has never been more than about 8% of our unit
volume, but still those 26 pellet stoves would have represented about $65,000
in sales revenue and would have meant an up year.
5. I have an article on digital communication appearing in the next HPA
newsletter which is going to boost this mail list and hearth.com in general.
I am also working with HPA communications committee developing plans and
a
budget for the year to come. Your thoughts are welcome.
6. We use computers for everything in our business, but it is a totally
unintegrated hodge podge of spread sheets, word processing, contact manager,
accounting, mapping, internet mess!
7. I hope you all have a good January. I'm looking forward to seeing some
of you at the NAHB show in Houston next week in Houston.
________________________________________________________________________
2. Craig Issod ([email protected]) says:
I am pleased to announce that HearthNet has received the following communication
from Point Foundation:
To: [email protected]
From: [email protected] (Todd Whitney)
Subject: HearthNet is Rated in the Top 5%
Congratulations!
Your home page has been rated among the top 5% of all sites on the Internet
by Point Survey.
Point is a free service which rates and reviews only the best sites on the
World Wide Web. We provide surfers with a standard of excellence: a
catalog of the most lively, useful, and fun sites on the Net. If you
haven't already seen Point, come visit us at:
http://www.pointcom.com/
Reviews by Point will increase your exposure and attract new visitors to
your site through our link to you. Our Top Ten list has been featured on
CNN and in many publications, and Point Survey ratings are provided to
media around the world.
We invite you to display the prestigious "Top 5% of the Web" badge.
It is
available in the badge directory at: http://www.pointcom.com/badges/ And
we ask you to link us at: http://www.pointcom.com
________________________________________________________________________
end of digest
Send posts to [email protected] Back to Top
01/24/96
1. What are the Margins ?
In this issue:
1. What are the margins ?
From: [email protected]
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 03:35:11 -0500
To: [email protected]
Subject: Dealer margins
Hi,
I'm not sure if this is an appropriate use of this forum, but I do have
a few
questions to which, being new in the industry, I'd like input. What kind
of
margins do most dealers expect on products? What margins do dealers usually
receive? Does the margin often have to be reduced to sell the product?
Conversely, are there many times when products are sold at higher than the
suggested price to get a decent margin? Thanks!
Carl/Gail English - Virginia
_____________________________________________________________________________
Please send posts, responses, etc. to [email protected] Back
to Top
01/24/96
1. Answer about Margins
2. Poor customer service - epidemic among Hearth Manufacturers
1. Carl/Gail English - Virginia writes:
> What are the margins ?
>
>From: [email protected]
>Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 03:35:11 -0500
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: Dealer margins
>
>Hi,
>I'm not sure if this is an appropriate use of this forum, but I do have
a few
>questions to which, being new in the industry, I'd like input. What
kind of
>margins do most dealers expect on products? What margins do dealers
usually
>receive? Does the margin often have to be reduced to sell the product?
>Conversely, are there many times when products are sold at higher than
the
>suggested price to get a decent margin? Thanks!
>
>Carl/Gail English - Virginia
Craig Issod (Stoveworks Inc.) writes:
The retail margins should be high in our industry, due to the specialized
nature of our products and the service and support required. Stoves, Fireplaces
and other big-ticket stuff should be 33 to 40% or higher, and the little
stuff like pipe, gasket , etc. should be 50%+.
Our stores average 37 to 40% at the end of the year across our entire line.
To be clear, we are speaking of margin. In otherwords, buy for 600 sell
for 1000 equals 40% margin.
It is best to try to buy better, and therefore be able to sell cheaper than
to cut your margins. Sometimes good deals can be had on overstock, quantity
and for cash payments. Dating can help, although most makers don;t get it
yet (they want you to pay the invoices too early--the money isn;t here til
November)
The exception to the high margin--certain one of a kind central heaters,
cookstoves, etc. In these cases, determine a minimum profit ($500/$1000
or so on high end stuff) that you need to make to make it worth your while.
Add that to your cost, and don;t be concerned about the margin.
Hope that helps,
Craig Issod, Stoveworks Inc. ([email protected])Back
to Top
___________________________________________________
2. Poor Customer Service
Craig Issod Writes:
What's going on out there in the hearth Industry ? I'm seeing manufacturers
that fail to stand behind their products, and it seems to be getting worse.
Some examples:
We had a bad glass door (workmanship, not freight damage) come from a Manufacturer
in NC. Brand new, but defective. We called about returning it today--the
lady said " the President of the company says we have been taking back
too many doors, so you'll have to pay to get it back and fixed". Of
course, we demanded to speak to his highness, and she tried to get him,
finally getting back on the phone and telling us "he's yelling at me
when I go in and try to get him". Makes sense, doesn;t it-- "we
screwed up and have had bad quality control, so now we'll just refuse to
take back the doors that are headed our way--just think of the profits we'll
reap !"
Where did these folks learn their business skills ? I can tell lots of stories
like this about major players in our Industry..some of them you would not
understand or believe !
With all their faults, I must commend Vermont Castings for their customer
service insights. They have never left us holding the bag. They build the
cost of customer service into the price of the goods (as should be), and
then don;t have to make excuses.
I shouldn't compliain-- more business for my consulting company (CHI Associates)...problem
is 90% of these companies aren't even aware they need consulting.
Craig
__________________
End of Digest..Send posts to [email protected] Back
to Top
01/24/95
Margins, Quality Service, and The Upcoming Builders Show
In this Issue, Tim Nissen answers on
Margins, Quality Service, and The Upcoming Builders Show
I. Margins - I wrote an article a few years ago called "You live off
your
gross margin," and you do. All of your expenses must be paid with gross
margin dollars, all of your profits are what's left over. We make 50% or
a
little more on accessories and vent; 40% or a little more on stoves and
inserts and labor; low 30's on high end items like VC and very competitive
builder products like Heat N Glo. Overall we have been in the 41, 42, 43
%
range for past five years, and we have 4-8% net income before taxes when
it
is all said and done, which is a good income and modest return on our
investment.
2. Service - two months to get new burner components out of VC for a
Goldenwarm Direct Vent; three months to get parts out of Hearthstone; order
a part 24 hour UPS out of Heat N Glo and it takes 3 days to ship, and they
ship it overnight, so you get killed on the charge; much poorer q.c. out
of
Travis, but quick response to the problems; months and months to get some
warranty work reimbursed, and at best we break even on it, and it has
significant opportunity costs during the season...we could be doing some
things that make us money. I know two dealers who are dropping Waterford
entirely over service problems, and Waterford has approached us with the
line. I would like to hear from other dealers, with good and bad reviews.
3. I'm traveling to the NAHB show in Houston tomorrow. Am looking forward
to seeing what HPA has put together for a general hearth products/Fire Works
display. Am looking forward to seeing what Heat N Glo, Heatilator, Marco,
VC, Mendota and others are showing. Will be reporting on Internet matters
to
the HPA Communications Committee Friday morning, hoping to get some dollars
allocated for a HPA home page and some other things in the year to come.
Will write up my notes and post them early next week.
__________________________________
End of Digest Back to Top
01/27/95
1. Message from on Manufacturer on QC
2. Comment on the above
Hearth mailing list--Please inform us if you want to be removed from this
list--and if you know others that want to join !
1. Message from on Manufacturer on QC
2. Comment on the above
1.Sunset Fireplace Furnishing ([email protected]), in response to messages
about poor customer service at many hearth manufacturers, writes:
I just wanted to pass along some thoughts from a manufacture...Sunset
Fireplace Fixtures.
Whenever we hear about a problem with something that we make, our "policy"
is
to get the correct item to the customer as fast as possible, then you and
I
can discuss the why's & how's of it being wrong the first time. The problem
is, we don't hear enough feedback from retailer's, whether it is good or
bad.
Once in a while we will hear how great something looks after it is
installed, but those are rare times. What we do hear about are retailers
who
try to blame us for an installers incorrect measurments, or finish option.
(Brass / Blk, etc...)
The only way we can have better qc, and stay on top of the problems is to
hear about the problems and then try to work with the dealers/retailers
to
make sure it does not happen again. We make thousands of custom, one of
a
kind screens a year, and we have ONLY 1/2 of 1% error ratio. We would love
to see it lower, but humans will always make some sort of mistake along
the
way. We can only keep trying.
Steve Pulone
Sunset Fireplace Fixtures, Inc.
__________________________________________________
2. Comments from Craig Issod ([email protected])
Steve, that's great because you WANT to hear about the problems...many manufacturers
try to sweep them under the table. As retailers, I can assure you that we
will tell our suppliers when things are not correct. In addition, manufacturers
should use their reps and personal contacts with retailers to "feel
out" the relationship. It should always be a "win-win" one
!
_____________________________________________
End of Digest
Send Posts to [email protected]
01/28/96Back
to Top
1. Need a good employee !
1. Need a good employee !
Dave Lapine writes:
my store manager of my topeka ks. store is having to move back to iowa
because his wifes mom is real sick and they have to help take care of her.
i
am looking for a agressive person with sales experience to manage the store.
the store is really doing well and getting better every week. we opened
in
oct. 94
3000 sq.ft show room. we sell marquis spas, travis products lopi, avalon,
fpx, earth stoves, heat-n-glo, superior, country flame, gaslogs and
accessories. any suggestions on how i might get the word out we're looking
for a good employee? if you have any ideas please let me know.
thanks dave lapine
midwest fireplace stoves & spas
913-764-5575 work topeka store # 913-267-9600
913-780-0535 home
913-764-1792 fax
[email protected]
__________________________________________________________
end of digest
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