Fire view in a cat stove
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raybonz
Minister of Fire
Were you at the last open house/pig roast at Woodstock? I recall Tom mentioned this..He also mentioned less ornate cast iron to make the stove not look Victorian.. Pretty similar design to the PH..
Ray
No I wasn't at the pig roast, I saw a Fireview that they were working on, this was over the summer , I think July, when I was picking out a stove. They were going to use less fancy cast iron on the stove, and a squared up piece of glass up front.. What ever they do again,,, will be impressive for sure,, that's in their hearts and how they like to build....it's all OK in my book
suprz
Member
You guys got me all confused now! When i get my stovetop up to 400-425 i close the bypass damper and engage the cat, and sometimes i will get small lazy blue flames but recently the flames just die out slowly and i figure the cat isnt going off and i re open the bypass and the orange flames come back and i just run the stove with the damper half shut...so do i not worry about the flames dying out? I just figured that if i dont get flames, the stove is burning dirty and i will get creosote.... (This is my first cat stove...forgive my ignorance)
Whole idea of the cat is to burn the smoke that would normally create creosote. Just because there is no flame doesn't mean the cat is not doing it's job.... I would say if after 30 minutes your stove is starting to cool down , then your cat has stalled or is not hot enough to burn the smoke,,, also check you chimney during the day when you think that cat is maybe not doing it's job,,, there should be no smoke to speak of. Once my stove hits 250 and I close my by pass,,, 20 minutes later its heading to the 300 degree range so that tells me we have lift off! The cats is working! Maybe someone with your particular stove will chime in and can give you some more fine tuned advice....
Machria
Minister of Fire
Interesting to me is, the BK folks seem to constantly claim better burn time and efficiency over the Woodstock PH. Then I look at the amount of wood they require to get one of those 24 hour burns, I count 12 or 14 large splits loaded. Yet I'm finding I get 12 hours on 3 or 4 medium splits (not as large as the ones they seem to be loading). So I can get 24 hours on 6 or 8 splits, all smaller than the 12 or 14 the BK is burning in the same time frame. I have not yet tried stuffing my PH to the gills yet, as they do with the BK's.
So I went to the BK site to compare but outputs, and there is no mention on any of there specs of how many BTU's they are rated for via the EPA for max output and low output, as all the other manufacturers list them. Are the BK's not EPA tested?
So I went to the BK site to compare but outputs, and there is no mention on any of there specs of how many BTU's they are rated for via the EPA for max output and low output, as all the other manufacturers list them. Are the BK's not EPA tested?
BrowningBAR
Minister of Fire
Yes, BKs are EPA tested.
Yes, the BK site does list BTUs they are rated for as it relates to max output and low output:
Performance
Performance (LHV)
Maximum heat input: 464,042 BTU's
Efficiency: 88%
Constant Heat output on High: 40,836 BTU's/h for 10 hours
Constant Heat output on Low: 13,612 BTU's/h for up to 30 hours
Performance (HHV B415)
Maximum heat input: 464,042 BTU's
Efficiency: 81%
Constant Heat output on High: 37,587 BTU's/h for 10 hours
Constant Heat output on Low: 12,528 BTU's/h for up to 40 hours
Machria
Minister of Fire
Normally EPA ratings are followed by the letters "EPA", are you sure? In any case, so is the BK King, largest unit they make only rated for 37.5k BTU's? That can't be right, seems to low?
The BKK is the most efficient stove listed by the EPA at 82%, the Princess and PH are listed at 81%. http://www.epa.gov/compliance/resources/publications/monitoring/caa/woodstoves/certifiedwood.pdf
The firebox of the small BK like my Princess is the same size as your PH, stuff your PH full dial it down and post the 24 hour results.
I remember reading one of the PH owners getting 24 hour burns so the BK guys aren't the only ones who have done it. It seems most of the PH owners are content with loading in 12 hour stretches so they load what is required to achieve that, I see no issue with that. Different strokes for different folks.
BrowningBAR
Minister of Fire
Yes. I am sure BK stoves are EPA approved stoves.
The ratings I posted are for the Princess, which has the same size firebox as your stove.
Additionally, you are trying to compare apple to oranges with BTU ratings. The 80k BTUs listed on the Progress or the 75k on the Englander 30, or the 80k on the VC Defiant, are not achievable through normal use.
Machria
Minister of Fire
Those #'s are not correct, and I'm sure you already know that. Those are simply preset #'s for given stove types, not the actual tested #'s. Woodstocks site has the graph with the actual result numbers from EPA tests which shows the PH at 81.3 at HHV, and 87.1 on LHV, along with the biggest range of output of any high output stove. This was one thing that attracted me to the PH, alot of fire power if needed, but the ability to dial it way down.
But what I'm interested in is the highest output on the BK?
BrowningBAR
Minister of Fire
And there were several stats on the Woodstock graph that were inaccurate.
It is a 2.75 cu ft stove. The heat output will be about the same as any stove of the same size and run at the same temp.
Machria
Minister of Fire
Yes, I'm sure too, but why aren't the EPA #'s listed?
Understood, but you can use them as a comparison. You may not achieve those exact results with cord wood, but it does tell you how one unit compares to another with outputs. If one out is 80k, and another is 40k, you can assume confidently you will likely get about 1/2 the output from the one to the other.
What are you talking about? One column is for tested efficiency and one for default efficiency. If you look at the list only a few manufactures have tested numbers listed.
Machria
Minister of Fire
Sorry, I don't agree with that at all. One stove could burn it all at once and have high output for a short period, and another could have low output for a long period, as I suspect the BK's are. Then efficiency (heat up the chimney....) construction materials, and design of heat characteristics (radiates or connects....) all would have huge affects...
Dairyman
Minister of Fire
From BK's site.
The facts on BTU.
There are only two rating methods that mean something to you, the consumer:
1
The first is the BTU output that is achieved during EPA testing. This testing is quite complicated and costly milled woods are burned. This is a standard for all manufacturer testing and is not intended to provide consumers with a model for how a stove will burn in their home.
2
The second method is what Blaze King refers to as the "Real World" method. These BTUs are achieved during in house testing using the same thing a consumer burns, split, dry cordwood. In our tests, we use fir. The "Real World" BTUs listed are what the average consumer can expect to achieve, with slight variations depending upon geographical location, type of wood, elevation and amount of fuel added. Higher BTUs are possible. If you were to stand in front of your stove and frequently add fuel, burn the unit on high and have optimal conditions, the PE1006 could produce as high as 87,850 BTUs and the KE1107 could exceed 90,000 BTUs!
However, maximum BTUs would only be achievable at a certain "peak" during the burn.
Blaze King does not wish to mislead you, so we give you all the facts.
The facts on BTU.
There are only two rating methods that mean something to you, the consumer:
1
The first is the BTU output that is achieved during EPA testing. This testing is quite complicated and costly milled woods are burned. This is a standard for all manufacturer testing and is not intended to provide consumers with a model for how a stove will burn in their home.
2
The second method is what Blaze King refers to as the "Real World" method. These BTUs are achieved during in house testing using the same thing a consumer burns, split, dry cordwood. In our tests, we use fir. The "Real World" BTUs listed are what the average consumer can expect to achieve, with slight variations depending upon geographical location, type of wood, elevation and amount of fuel added. Higher BTUs are possible. If you were to stand in front of your stove and frequently add fuel, burn the unit on high and have optimal conditions, the PE1006 could produce as high as 87,850 BTUs and the KE1107 could exceed 90,000 BTUs!
However, maximum BTUs would only be achievable at a certain "peak" during the burn.
Blaze King does not wish to mislead you, so we give you all the facts.
BrowningBAR
Minister of Fire
Based on how Blaze King lists their heat output numbers, I have always assumed that those are EPA numbers as the results from owners are very close to the info that Blaze King lists on their website. So, whether it is EPA number or not, it is very close to what owners are experiencing with the stoves.
No, you can not assume that. If you do, you will make very poor decisions on your heating needs. Usable firebox is the main component that you need to base your decision making needs on. If you base it on claimed BTU ratings, you will end up with a stove that does not meet your needs.
BrowningBAR
Minister of Fire
"The heat output will be about the same as any stove of the same size and run at the same temp."
Additionally, construction materials offer little difference as does radiates vs convection. It is still a box containing wood. If two stoves have the same size firebox and run at the same temp, they will heat about the same amount of space and give off about the same amount of heat.
Couldn't be more wrong in my real world experience. My last stove was a Lopi Endeavor rated at 70K and my BK rated at 40K runs circles around it in real world heating. For how long and how often do you think your stove will run at max output? Who cares how much heat it can throw out when on high burn, in the 24/7 real world the stove will very rarely be run there. EPA number are just numbers the real world use is all that matters to people who want to heat their house with wood. You can cherry pick whatever numbers and testing method you want when making a stove. You can also build a stove so it will perform well in an EPA test.
This topic has really taken a silly turn at this point. It's another thread where someone with another stove other than a BK feels it necessary to try to put holes in a line of stoves that's proven just as the WS stoves are proven. Very seldom will you see a BK fan boy take a shot at a WS stove since most of us can appreciate the stove even if we don't own one.
Machria
Minister of Fire
Gotcha.
So the output range on the King is 9,100 to 39,800 BTU's. The range on the PH is 12,538 to 73,131. That's a huge difference in range. Can you not fire the BK real hot? Also, does BK make the King in a Cat and non-cat version? Is that why it's listed twice?
Machria
Minister of Fire
I'm not trying to punch holes in anything. To the contrary I'm trying to compare them and find the differences. I have no issues with the BK's, I almost bought the modern looking one, looks likes fine stove. I'm still waiting for more posts and experiences on that one, not many owners here....
And PLEASE, there are a LOT more shots fired across the Woodstock bow around here from BK guys, than the other way around! So don't be so sensitive. Take a little of what you give out.
BrowningBAR
Minister of Fire
Yes, BK stove can be run hot. Constant Heat output on High for the king is 51,582 BTU's/h. 40,836 BTU's for the Princess.
What does that me when compared to the Progress when run on a daily basis? Probably not much, just a different way of listing specs.
And PLEASE, there are a LOT more shots fired across the Woodstock bow around here from BK guys, than the other way around! So don't be so sensitive. Take a little of what you give out.
I'm not sensitive, I know you're a new owner of a PH and want to talk your new purchase up so you can feel good about it. You have a fine stove you shouldn't have to talk another stove down for you to accomplish that.
I don't give much out to the WS crowd, WS makes fine stove with countless happy owners on this site. If they would offer offer the PH without the stone I may be a buyer someday. I can't recall the last time(if ever) I seen any well known brand being talked about as if they weren't EPA certified.
That's a pretty good shot imo.
Machria
Minister of Fire
Yes, but the mistake your making is assuming they can all (all units with same size firebox) run at the same temp, and they can't. For example, the BK can run for 24+ hours with a loaded box, the PH can't do that as easily apparently. So that says to me the BK can run at at a lower temp than the PH. Which is shown on the BTU tests, the PH only went down to 12k, where the BK goes down to 9k. These exact numbers might not mean much to us, but they are great for comparison purposes which is why they are done. They tell us the BK can burn lower and longer, and the PH can burn higher, and has a larger range.
Scientific Comparisons are good man!
Machria
Minister of Fire
I can't recall the last time(if ever) I seen any well known brand being talked about as if they weren't EPA certified. That's a pretty good shot imo.
Sooooo sensitive! LOL! That was not a shot, that was a question, I was looking on there site for EPA #'s and could not find any, only explanation would be they don't pay the EPA for testing which probably costs a small fortune. I don't know if that is mandatory these days? My company avoids certifications like the plague, especially the guberment ones cause they are costly and don't usually help bidness in any way. So not having EPA cert would not be a negative thing for me, if of course that is possible?
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