Anyone with a Piazzetta Sabrina ?

[NorthoftheQuabbin]

That is a ridiculously high fuel consumption for a low setting.
On low it should use less than a bag in 24 hours.
Either the stove is not running on low or there is something seriously wrong.
You need to run the stove manually to force it to run on low. Not use the thermostat control which will let it cycle up.
Surely you can tell that it is being overfueled by your last video? Look at that flame, it is huge! The poor stove just can't consume the fuel fast enough. It must go on a diet.

I agree there's clearly and air/fuel problem, but I don't know how to correct the situation any more than I have.

Maybe I'm over estimating my fuel usage, but there's no way I can get 24 hours out of a bag of pellets.

 

[NorthoftheQuabbin]

Run the stove on manual, on low. Be absolutely certain that the stove is running at the lowest feed rate possible. Empty the hopper and refill with 1.5kgs of pellets.
If the stove runs out in less than 2.5 hours call your dealer. There is something wrong that you are not capable of rectifying. If they can't fix it they are idiots.

I've always run the stove on manual - adjusting the temperature accordingly.

Over the last few weeks, I've had both the stove shop and the distributor here trying to rectify the problem.

Basically, I've been told that I have to live with these deficiencies, or remove the stove.

 

[NorthoftheQuabbin]

Forget air, concentrate on fuel.

I have tentative plans to speak with someone at Piazzetta's North American headquarters, who's willing to help me get the stove under control.

Boy, this is turning into a case of who killed JR ?!

 

[NorthoftheQuabbin]

Just run the 2.5 test and ask them to explain why it has not performed (if it doesn't). This burn rate will be well within their guidelines. If it won't do it then they need to fix it so it does. I will bet my left nut that the problem is in the controls and there is nothing physically wrong with the stove. Focus on the stove shop, they sold you the bloody thing, it is their responsibility to get it right.
No point going to Piazzetta unless it is to complain about the stove shop and distributor service.
If it were me I would be lacing up my arse-kicking boots as we speak, before paying the stove shop a visit. How old is this thing and what did it cost?

Are ready for this ?

BTW, my apologies to the other members who have already heard this rant.

The first stove was installed in the middle of March 2014. After that one failed to perform properly during the first month and a half or so, they decided to replace it with another one. However, given the fact that is was so late in the season, I barely got around to using it.

Jumping ahead to the onset of this winter, the stove was put to full use in November, wherein it quickly began exhibiting all of the same problems as the first one.

As a result, the stove shop decided to come out and re-vent it differently, which yielded little to no difference. From there, the distributor got involved, and came out to my home to asses the situation as well. .

The long and short of it is, the stove people basically said that there are challenges with every stove application, and if I wanted to keep the Piazzetta, I had to learn to live with its deficiencies.

In any case, I've more than laced up my boots to kick some arse in their situation. Both the stove shop and the distributor are likely throwing darts at my picture as we speak.

Frankly, I don't think either one of them no sh*t about their product, and that's why I decided to join this forum, and try to find answers to the problem before I drag this thing to the curb and tell then to come and get it once and for all. .

 

[NorthoftheQuabbin]

This stove is well within warranty and the stove shop did the install so they owe you a total duty of care.
My strong advice is to get a refund and deal with someone who knows what they are doing.
THe best stove in the world is useless when it breaks down and no one knows how, or cares, to fix it.
Just imagine what your level of service will be like once it is out of warranty. Do you think they will even take your call?
I dont care how good it is. The rule with pellet stoves is they are only as good as the service department behind them. Sounds like your guys are useless. Ditch it and ditch it quick.


What a load of bullplop. Did they make this ridiculous claim when selling you the stove in the first instance?


Just get them to collect it and tell them how appalling their reps service has been. No matter what tripe they serve up now you know you will be left in the lurch down the track.

I spent considerable time on the phone with a forum member, who's also a Piazzetta dealer, troubleshooting my stove's problems.

In another attempt to take "Hamburger Hill", I spent hours today cleaning the stove, starting with all of the internals - straight out the vent and up the pipe to the vent cap.

The stove was much dirtier than I expected, since I clean it thoroughly once a week, and the venting was quite dirty as well.

Let's see what this yields.

 

[Pascal_Maertens]

Hand guest what? I think we are going to get another satisfied Piazzetta customer whit in a week or so max. I just love doing this; proving to all of these stove dealer that 95% of the time the problem is not the stove but just the kind of "/$%?&* service they are not giving must take too much of their precious time.


Hey my name is Pascal Maertens I’m a Piazzetta consultant for the region of Quebec in Canada


I do sale, install and most important also adjust Piazzetta Pellets stove. If you are having problem with your dealer trouble shooting your stove, you got to know me. And by the way, I also own one and yes at first, I had my share of problem too.

 

[NorthoftheQuabbin]

Hand guest what? I think we are going to get another satisfied Piazzetta customer whit in a week or so max. I just love doing this; proving to all of these stove dealer that 95% of the time the problem is not the stove but just the kind of "/$%?&* service they are not giving must take too much of their precious time.


Hey my name is Pascal Maertens I’m a Piazzetta consultant for the region of Quebec in Canada


I do sale, install and most important also adjust Piazzetta Pellets stove. If you are having problem with your dealer trouble shooting your stove, you got to know me. And by the way, I also own one and yes at first, I had my share of problem too.

At the risk of coming across as an ad endorsement, Pascal proved to be a tremendous resource for me with regard to getting my Piazzetta stove under control.

Not only has the last 24 hours been the best that I've seen it perform, but thanks to Pascal, I now have a greater understanding as to how it needs to operate.

 

[CleanFire]

Glad to read you have (edit: professional) dealer help w/ your stove - hope it works out well for you.

 

[NorthoftheQuabbin]

Since you have been ask for so long. It would be nice if you could elaborate on what you have done to improve the stove so that any other Piazetta owners out there can benefit from your triumphs. Share the knowledge.

For starters, there was far more ash build up in the venting and cap than anyone would have imagined. Going through all of it, and thoroughly cleaning it, made a huge difference.

Given the fact that the new venting has only been in place for about a month and a half or so, I never would have guessed that so much build up could have occurred. But, then again, my stove has been performing inefficiently for weeks.

Also, coming to understand the right balance of feed rate and airflow, and how certain variables impact it, has been a tremendous help for me in reconfiguring my stove's parameters.

But, ultimately being able to Skype with an expert like Pascal, and the opportunity for him to see and hear my concerns firsthand, was invaluable.

 

[Pascal_Maertens]

First I would like to mention that here in Quebec we never hook up the OAK unless there is a mobile home involved and believe me when I read people saying that the reson for X problem is du that the OAK is not hook properly well…hum..

Buy the way I think that in the states you have to hook an AOK by law, am I wrong please let me know.

Back to this customer issue; when we get a lazy flame that produce a lot of soot first question you have to ask is how many bags have you burned? If you have a 3’’ chimney after 50 to 60 you need to clean it, with a 4’’ chimney around 100 bags only that’s the base. When I say cleaning, I mean the complete air flow from OAK to baffle to chimney cap. Only then you will start questioning if you need to adjust

Then for those who knows how to go in the menu parameter ( and understand what they’re doing ) you have to think of;

the triangle of fire and balance fuel and air; more you put fuel ( p5 to p10 ) more you need air ( p16 to p22 ) thats all there was for this particular issue thank you and good nigth if you have any more question i'll be more then glade to answer you.

regards to all of you.

 

[Drew65]

The fuel rate wasn't as bad as you think. You asked how long on LOW power (p1) he must not have read that and told you he was running at the "lowest feed rate" but he's was running on P5 the highest btu setting and at that a bag will burn in 8 hours

 

[Pascal_Maertens]

Why not?

Well first; it's a source of cold air coming in the house. Second; just because a European stove have that difference whit most American stove, that the combustion fan is totally adjustable to counter the excess or lack of air due to the insolation or air tightness of the house. If you want to see how far the Europeans are ahead of us, just go and look for pellet silos, auto feeders etc… can’t even get a picture of it on Google Canadian Distributor

This stove has a ridiculously high fuel consumption. Did you fix that problem?

I’ve said ‘’ we are going to get another satisfied Piazzetta customer whit in a week or so max’’. Even do the customer seems to be very satisfied; I know that there is still fine tunings to do. The consummation was very Hi yes. First I reduce the RPM to 2350 it was at 2800 on P5 and caused the pellets to over burn plus the path of air from the stove to the chimney cap to evacuate this air was blocked by the abnormal amount of ash ‘’never clean since November’’ a responsible dealer would of tell him that will saling the unit, no one told him how to, and when to! They are so afraid to louse the customer $$$ will talking about cleaning adjusting etc… when I will be finish, even If the customer doubt about it, he will be running is stove at P3 just like the rest of my customer do, an then just control the temp with the thermostat. Will get there lol… am I over confident, NO I simply know it’s possible.

 

[Pascal_Maertens]

You have got it 100% wrong here. An oak reduces the amount of cold air being drawn into a house by reducing drafts.

I’m talking only and always about Piazzetta product my understanding is a 2'' hole in the wall for the OAK plus a 3'' hole for chimney when the stove reach it's temp and run off you end up with 2 cold pipe in the house? A house is not air tight so there is no need to make more holes in the house and if I was so wrong about this, why don’t I get more calls, unstated of satisfied customer’s recommending Piazzetta to their neighbour and friends? Of course if I go out and install an USSC or other similar product I will put an OAK cause you can’t adjust the air that is push out.

Now, now Pascal doesn’t you go starting to believe the PR bulldust from the manufacturers. No stove is exempt from the laws of physics. You are doing your customers a huge disservice by not recommending OAKS. Just because you do not have OAKS to sell does not give you the right to to fabricate nonsensical reasons to not use them. Every stove should have an oak. There is no situation where an oak will not improve the heating performance of a stove. I cannot fathom the stupidity of arguments against OAKS; it is like trying to argue the the Earth is flat!

did I mention somewhere that it was problematic to install an OAK !?? Every time I give formations or go to formation; some information are exchange between technicians about Piazzetta products and every time it get to OAK issue they all agree on one thing, they rarely install any with a Piazzetta an when they do install one 90% of the time it has nothing to do with the customers need, house or stove but it’s the boss decision $$$$. And by the way I do carry OAK cause I also sale USSC and others pellets stoves and furnace.

Wow! What an amazing feature! Oh that is right my stoves have this as do many others. IT IS ABSOLUTE RUBBISH TO SUGGEST THAT THE PURPOSE OF VARIABLE COMBUSTION AIR IS REPLACE THE NEED FOR AN OAK

!

You are severely damaging your credibility with stupid comment like that. If you were just a homeowner I would not care but as you are representing yourself as an industry professional your ridiculous comments need to be challenged or you will go on poisoning the minds of customers for ever more. Wake up to yourself buddy.

hey, If you can tell me what stove do you have that has a variable combustion fan I will Apologise for this particular product for. I’m not a distributor and the stove that are presented to me as North American ones they all have a mechanical trap that most of the time is not even accessible without opening the side walls. Please do so, show me a PDF manual and I will. The Drolet ( SBI ) company in Quebec, have an ECO65 the latest model has also a combustion fan that is adjustable but they won’t give any information on it cause they also sale OAK. When you need to adjust them they just say ‘’ put an OAK it going to do the same job and you will make more money’’ and the customer as to pay more, You are disrespectful of other people opinions. My credibility I Hearn it; one customer at a time, with honesty and priority in customer satisfaction, and this sometime irate people that are always thinking $$$ cause they can’t follow or don’t understand why are we doing things differently. It’s called evolution, in the pellets stove industry the European have few years in advance

On a lighter note; yes you will succeed no doubt. It does sound like you are approaching the problem the same as me (reducing fuel and air). Just with the unit control knowledge that I do not have (having never seen a Piazetta).

I totally agree about the poor dealer advice. I tell all my customers to check their flues weekly until they appreciate how often they need to clean. To ignore it for months is nuts. That is why I refuse to sell inbuilt stoves because I know users will not look after them and that will be all MY fault.

No doubt you seem to me like a good dealer or else why would you be her helping people. We might have divergent opinion on how things should be done; the important one is the result, customer’s satisfaction.

It sounds to me that the controls you are working with are too restrictive if everyone ends at the same setting. Maybe the company should do some research into fully variable settings. This is especially useful when changing fuel types.

Sorry sorry monsieur, please ask more question before you go and … yes I’m making a big story about the Piazzetta stove for this you can kill me, I confess. But Piazzetta have more than one model, they all have 5 Power level and if you sale the correct size stove for the correct size house and also the customer habits; is he more 20c or 26c it will happened that most of the time you’ll end up running your stove at P3 if you sold the good one. It is so much easier for the customer to remember; if it’s cold increase if it’s hot decrease the thermostat. Hey this is in general and for the fuel type no problem with a Piazzetta they can burn just any kind of pellet from soft to hard but only when they are set properly in general adding 5 pascal to all the default setting for the Quebec region. Depends also what version of firmware you are using.


Hey, why don’t you try one then you’ll talk like me

 

[Pascal_Maertens]

Customers trust what you say. There is no doubt. you are absolutely wrong. As I said every stove is improved with an OAK.


It is not a matter of opinion. It is absolute fact. Every stove should have an OAK.


Nonsense. Their are plenty of US and Chinese stoves that are the equal of anything from Europe. Our stove is the most efficient and cleanest in the world and it did not come from Europe.




I cannot attach the manual because it is in .doc format. You can see it at www.cheapheat.com.au and if you send a email to the site I can email the manual direct. I have attached the way we do our OAKs.


The Piazettas are not good enough to meet the Australian Standards so are unlikely to come to Australia.

lol.. so as I can see you are only bitching a product and a technology that you just don’t no noting of, your pdf manual is just how to hook up a OAK on a cheap stove (Cheap Heat Solution) lol... I’m not talking going Cheap I’m talking Piazzetta you are being stubborn if you want to talk cheap stuff you should open a post on this cause if I recall this post is called Anyone with a Piazzetta Sabrina ? So how can you just try to help if you don’t even want to know how this stove is running when I give formation to old guys like you whitch are stuck in the old age technology, an then they are abble to install a Piazzetta.

 

[Pascal_Maertens]

I think they have a very good coverage, well where it's needed.

 

[NorthoftheQuabbin]

Since I started this thread, I feel the need to intervene before things turn into anymore of a brouhaha here.

I am extremely grateful for those who took the time to participate and help me in my frustration, starting with chKen and Smokey the Bear, leading up to chickenman and Pascal, who was most gracious in spending time over Skype helping me with my stove.

For the record, the Piazzetta is a beautifully designed stove, but like many high brow items, it's a bit persnickety and needs a little extra care and know-how. Know that I have a better understanding of what it needs to work properly, which may be the case for a lot of other brands, it seems to be working well. Again, I wouldn't have been able to reach this point without the help of this forum.

As for Piazzetta as a company, its affiliate here in the USA and the stove shop that sold it to me and installed it, save for a couple of individuals, they couldn't manage an f'in out house.

In any case, what I think Pascal is trying to say, in view of the fact that Piazzetta is manufactured in Italy, and undoubtedly developed and tested in that region, they may not be as well suited for other climates such as North America and other parts of the world - right out of the box. And, therefore, they need a bit of tweaking in order to adapt to our conditions. I liken it to a high performance European car first trying to adapt to the driving conditions in the USA.

In any event case, I tend to agree with that parallel, since that's how my stove behaved from the get go.

The goal here is to help out newbies like myself, and stay in joyous pellet pulchritude !

 

[Pascal_Maertens]

I have said many times that I do not know the stove.

I live in the real world. Performance is what counts not price. Our stoves outperform Piazetta at half the price.

I’m trying to be as professional as I can be, so tell me.. in real world have you seen one? When have you tried one? How did you compare. I just think that you are making your mind on Piazzetta by the comment customers leave on this forum. If we stay here that’s all we are going to ear is unsatisfied customer, and this is going true this entire forum, from just any brand of stove. This is why Forums exist.

It is not the fault of the stove it is the service. What if you went on holidays?

finally we agree on something, we have qualified personal and I have holidays just like everybody.

Now that is just nonsense. You may sell, install, and troubleshoot stoves. I design, build, test, redesign, rebuild, retest,sell, install, and troubleshoot stoves. WE have spent over $100,000 on testing, over $50,000 on software development. I spend huge amounts of time talking with engineers either at the factory or remotely discussing changes and improvements. Have you done any of this?

no need to, the company dose all that and more, are rep was telling us all that and even, look like they all have the same speech. Sorry but this is not new for me I ear dose kind of speech all the time they all have the best product in the world.

Do you produce your own fuel?

I don’t grow food to burn it, I eat food and I’m against all mono culture that is destroying the planet, have you ever herd of; beef effect or Monsanto. In my region the pellets are produce from recycling wood from the wood industry.

We are from the country. People here are not rich. They could not afford a stove like the Piazzetta.

same situation her but who am I to say that my customer don’t have the money, I offer them the choice they decide whether they want cheap stuff, expensive stuff or just luxurious stuff I offer the service.

be aware that there is only one dealer in Canada who can help you make it work because no one else has any idea

how many do you have ?

They are illegal to sell in Australia because their emissions are too high.

http://www.piazzetta.com/products/sy/p963/

ArrayEfficiency : 91.7 %
EPA Emissions : 1.97 grams/hour <<<<<<<<<< what is your emissions and what model give me some fact, documents !
Room heating capacity (min-max) : 700 - 2600 sq ft.
BTU output (min-max) : 13,192 – 47,955
Hopper Capacity : 66 lbs
Burn rate (min-max) : 1.60 – 5.80 lbs/hr
Power adjustable (positions) : 5
Exhaust Vent Height/Location : 7.28 in
Dimensions WxDxH : 22.5 x 21 x 46 in
Total weight : 434 lbs
Multifuoco System : dual blower
Manufactured/mobile home approved<<<<<<< there is an OAK adaptor

 

[NorthoftheQuabbin]

My point exactly. Nothing wrong with the stove, the problem is with the service.


No this is where you are wrong and are being hoodwinked by the hype. It is just a machine which needs to be operated correctly. THe fact that it is troublesome is entirely to do with the service not some namby pamby tripe about thoroughbred design.


I would be furious with my dealers if customers had no choice but to rely on a chatroom to keep their fire going. It is deplorable. I always say; any sign of trouble call immediately.


No Worries. Go get yourself an OAK it will make your fabulous stove even more fabulous....

I have an OAK in place

 

[Pascal_Maertens]

Do yourself a favour Pascal, use the OAK, it will make the stove even better. I do not sell any stoves without an OAK.

Seriously, a friend of mine as the same stove and did install an OAK and we found no significant difference. probaly not installed properly you will say but anyway in my case I have none an dont need one my stove is realy good like this.

 

[NorthoftheQuabbin]

UPDATE

The stove is still running great !

There, now I've gone ahead and jinxed myself

 

[NorthoftheQuabbin]

Excellent, well done.
What were the changes you made which have made the difference?

First and foremost, knowing how and when to adjust the stove's parameters, has been the most significant improvement. But, frequent, periodic cleaning is also extremely important too.

And, when I say cleaning, I'm referring to near disassembly of the stove and all of its venting.

For whatever reason, the Sabrina requires far more routine cleaning than the Monia.

 

[Pascal_Maertens]

First and foremost, knowing how and when to adjust the stove's parameters, has been the most significant improvement. But, frequent, periodic cleaning is also extremely important too.

And, when I say cleaning, I'm referring to near disassembly of the stove and all of its venting.

For whatever reason, the Sabrina requires far more routine cleaning than the Monia.

theres no reason for the Sabrina not to act like the Monia. If since we have made those changes, there is still much dust to clean out of the venting, you may want to lower the RPM of the exhaust fan; the more RPM also means, more ash going up in baffle air path and in the chimney restricting the air flow. Remember the pellets should only wobble a bit. Besides auto cleaning, you should not see pellets going over the combustion grate and it’s not like there all wobbling only a few of them. I would say lower by 50 RPM at the time and be aware not to go to low remember that black soot we do not want that.


Good luck

 

[NorthoftheQuabbin]

I think that if you have been able to tame your stove voracious appetite you will find that the cleaning will lessen. I always tell my customers to start with weekly checks of the venting to get an appreciation of how much build up there. Usually they can then back it off to bi-monthly. I would recommend having a vacuum cleaner to suck out the firebox and up into the air channels every couple of days.
It only takes a few seconds and it saves the bulk of the dust making it into the back of the stove. This cuts back on the big cleans.

I've noticed since I've been able adjust the combustion and feed rates, there's been far less build up in ash in both the stove and venting.
I clean the fire pot and ashtray every 2 or 3 days, but now that the stove is running properly, I don't feel the need to pull off the back plate or open up the combustion fan compartment for cleaning for 10 days or so.
As far as the external venting is concerned, this time around there was hardly any ash build-up in the elbow or stack.

 

[NorthoftheQuabbin]

theres no reason for the Sabrina not to act like the Monia. If since we have made those changes, there is still much dust to clean out of the venting, you may want to lower the RPM of the exhaust fan; the more RPM also means, more ash going up in baffle air path and in the chimney restricting the air flow. Remember the pellets should only wobble a bit. Besides auto cleaning, you should not see pellets going over the combustion grate and it’s not like there all wobbling only a few of them. I would say lower by 50 RPM at the time and be aware not to go to low remember that black soot we do not want that.


Good luck

The Sabrina is getting close to the performance of the Monia I only say that it requires more attention, because it's in use 80% to 90% more than the Monia is.

 

[Pascal_Maertens]

I've noticed since I've been able adjust the combustion and feed rates, there's been far less build up in ash in both the stove and venting.
I clean the fire pot and ashtray every 2 or 3 days, but now that the stove is running properly, I don't feel the need to pull off the back plate or open up the combustion fan compartment for cleaning for 10 days or so.
As far as the external venting is concerned, this time around there was hardly any ash build-up in the elbow or stack.

I do also talk about days sometime but it’s a matter of pounds how many bags or pound per day are you using? Then you know that you can also adjust the pellets feed at all off your power level from .05 sec. to 12 sec. you can also play with it that’s what I call fine tuning

And remember; To run a stove very hi, will give you more heath faster, burn xx of pellets, get the thermostat to shut down the stove more often ( the igniter will need to be replace on a shorter period of time ) and once the stove gets cold it takes more time and more pellets just to start that blower again ( calculate the time it takes you’ll be surprise ) and in some cases the temperature will not even have time to raise in the rooms that are far away from the stove.

What I suggest is to make 3 different adjustments from p3 p4 p5 and remember that p1 and p2 have no self-cleaning

Then once you will be all set, then running the stove at a lower level, say p3 for example. On a regular winter day it will give time to raise the temperature in the rooms that are far away from the stove, run on a longer period without shutting down on the end it also take less pellets.

(( on energy saver, Once the thermostat detect that it as reach the proper temperature, the stove shuts down and gets cold then, when the thermostat gets a new demand, it takes almost 30 min before the convection blower starts and 40 min before it give proper heath this is where pellets fly’s out giving no heath. This is why in some cases when the exterior temperature drop considerably I’ll suggest not to run the energy saving mode it will run ‘’Hi Low’’ in a very well insulated house this will probably make less difference. ))

And remember if you get lost in there just contact me again, it will be my pleasure to help.

regards