867-5309 . . . Talking about (G)Jenny

[jebatty]

I emphasize the big 3 as far as electrical self sufficiency. 1. Food preservation, refrigerators and freezers. 2. Heat. Wood burning for us usually covers this, but if you have propane or gas, you need to factor in fans and thermostats. 3. Water.

This advice is exactly what I did in getting a generator 12 years ago -- a 5500W, 240V Craftsman. I did install a 10 circuit transfer switch so that I could have various circuits to energize as needed. 1) Primary consideration was refrigerator and freezer, 2) next the 240V well pump, 3) then key lighting circuits, 4) then the microwave circuit to enable a little cooking, and last the circuit that powers the TV, internet router, computer, and sound system. Long after we got the generator we switched nearly all lighting to LED, so current draw of lighting is barely a consideration, other than convenience. We also heat with a wood stove, so heat is not an issue. In a pinch the well pump also is not an issue, we live on a lake and can use our camping water purifier to get drinking water, if needed, cooking, washing and non-drinking water can come right from the lake. The septic system is gravity, so no pump issue here. A gallon or two of lake water in the toilet bowl does the flushing. And even for cooking, we can easily use our camping rocket stove and skip the microwave.

I would think that with your long experience with a generator, you know well what is critical, what also would be very helpful, and lastly what really is just a convenience. With all the electricity we use from the grid, it is eye-opening to see how little electricity is actually needed to cover power outages, even those that may extend over many days, which are rare in our area of rural northern MN.

 

[jebatty]

Need to add that the well pump only needs to be operated very minimally. One or two 5 gallon water jugs filled from the well easily would cover several days of need for drinking water. In the end, other than convenience, there is little need to oversize a generator.

 

[peakbagger]

I have a shallow well on my lot that I havent used for years, if I lose power a bucket and a rope will cover me. I hike and camp so I have various water treatment systems to treat the water just in case. One of these years I will hook up the shallow well and run the outdoor hoses and toilet off it it instead of using my deep well pump.

 

[maple1]

Our house draws from a generations old dug well for all its water. About 25' deep. We use a 120v shallow well pump. It does good even though it's at the outer range of its specs. I can run it off our 3kw inverter if I have to but rarely do - we have 3 toilets, the water in the tanks can get us a couple of days. I have a 25 gallon plastic drum under the condensate drain on our HRV that usually has some water in it, I can flush with that if I have to. If there is severe bad weather coming we fill a couple extra buckets, couple of gallons for drinking in the fridge. Worse comes to worse I can drop a bucket down the well on a rope. Worse comes to worser I can take a 5 minute walk to a brook.

Our power bills show average 20kwh/day of use, +/-. Closer to 16 in the winter when heating DHW with wood. If you take out say 10 hours for overnight when hardly using any, that works out to around 1.4KW per hour. A 1400 kw generator is pretty small - having one twice that more than covers our bases. Not sure many factor in their daily normal consumption when sizing a gennie - they are more apt to add up all their appliance draws & use that even though those would never all be running at the same time in an outage.

If we had a 240v well pump that we absolutely needed during outages, I think I would go the 2 gennie approach. A cheaper 240v one only used to run that pump and maybe any other big loads I wanted to plug in when it is running for that, and a 2kw inverter for the rest of the house & time. There is a huge difference in fuel consumption between the two. But as already said, we don't have LP, NG, or fuel oil here to take advantage of. And we also haven't had much in the way of outages here the past few years (knock loudly on wood).

 

[Sodbuster]

One thing I wish I had on my generator is idle control that allows the unit to idle when high draw isn't occurring. Mine runs wide open whether I'm running a light bulb or my well pump.

 

[firefighterjake]

Lost power again . . . only for 3 or 4 hours though. Not exactly sure how long since I was outside splitting up some wood.

 

[Highbeam]

One thing I wish I had on my generator is idle control that allows the unit to idle when high draw isn't occurring. Mine runs wide open whether I'm running a light bulb or my well pump.

US grid power is at a frequency of 60hz. 60 cycles per second is the same as 3600 rpm which is th engine speed of the regular non inverter gensets. You can’t idle them lower or your power output won’t meet specs.

Th inverter sets can idle down because voltage and frequency are created by the computer.

 

[Sodbuster]

Lost power again . . . only for 3 or 4 hours though. Not exactly sure how long since I was outside splitting up some wood.

Thanks, that makes sense.

 

[Agent]

Just to throw in a few cents of opinion - over the course of the summer, I kept an eye on Craigslist for a nice used genset. I ended up snagging an 8KW LP/Natural Gas Winco with an automatic transfer switch for $500. I wouldn't have minded lugging a portable one around, but the price was right. In hindsight, the ATS is awesome, since I can set it to auto if I'm out of town and we lose power (like earlier this summer).

 

[velvetfoot]

I have several portable generators that are stored without gas. I started them the other day. The hardest one to start was the Honda 2k inverter and the easiest was the oldest one with a Briggs engine: one pull.

Our electric utility came through and trimmed the trees and it made a big difference in outages. Been a few years now though... What's interesting to me is that another nearby electric utility is preemptively cutting down as h trees.

 

[firefighterjake]

I have several portable generators that are stored without gas. I started them the other day. The hardest one to start was the Honda 2k inverter and the easiest was the oldest one with a Briggs engine: one pull.

Our electric utility came through and trimmed the trees and it made a big difference in outages. Been a few years now though... What's interesting to me is that another nearby electric utility is preemptively cutting down as h trees.

Following the ice storm in 1998 when we were without power for 14 days the utility company came through in the Summer and cleared back the tree branches. It was several years before we had even a single power outage.

 

[Lanningjw]

Following the ice storm in 1998 when we were without power for 14 days the utility company came through in the Summer and cleared back the tree branches. It was several years before we had even a single power outage.

Hey firefighter Jake had the same results with the Honda 2K and my Briggs & Stratton Wheel Horse wheel horse started up right away Honda took several several poles to get that thing fired up but all is good

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

 

[dogwood]

I have one of those Honda EU7000IS inverter generators. I purchased it primarily to run a wood boiler and its circs , a well pump, freezer and refrigerator. Some of those require 240v which the Honda can provide. My research here and elsewhere indicated that pumps, and motors in general (as opposed to computers and other electronic devices) wouldn't run properly, and could be damaged, without the pure sine wave an inverter provides. So I got the pricey Honda inverter generator to cover both of those bases..

The summer before last, I installed a yet to be utilized interlock on the service panel. The installation of the interlock, 30 amp breaker and exterior plug-in went okay, and passed an electrical inspection. Trouble is I don't fully understand how it functions even though its installed correctly. For instance:

1. Since the double 30 Amp breakers the genset is wired into are on the left side of the service panel, how does power get to the right side of the panel?

2. I assume I will be using the Honda gensets 120/240v output to provide power to the service panel. If I am providing 240v to the panel why wouldn't household devices using only 120v get fried? And how can the generator outlet provide both 120v and 240v?

3. In this thread a few people recommended to Jake that he use a separate regular, non-inverter type generator to run his well pump. If electrical motors are not supposed to run correctly without a pure sine wave, and the well pump is a motor, why would that be okay?

If anyone could answer these questions, I'd appreciate the education. Actually since I didn't know the answers, I was afraid to use the Interlock set-up to plug the generator into the service panel, when the electric went out for a few hours, a couple of weeks ago. I was scared of frying out every electrical device in the house. Thanks.

Mike

 

[maple1]

If it passed an inspection there should be no worries.

ETA: I only know enough about wiring to be dangerous but the gennie doesn't exactly put out 240 v in one lump. It puts out 2 x 120v, in 2 legs, which can get combined to make 240v. Or kept split to give 120v to two rows of 120v circuits. Basics of answers to your questions. I think.

 

[greg13]

If it passed an inspection there should be no worries.

ETA: I only know enough about wiring to be dangerous but the gennie doesn't exactly put out 240 v in one lump. It puts out 2 x 120v, in 2 legs, which can get combined to make 240v. Or kept split to give 120v to two rows of 120v circuits. Basics of answers to your questions. I think.

That is correct. Your utility company supplies 220v to your panel. there are 2, 110v "hot" lines and a common, tie the 2 hots together and you have 220, 1 hot & common gives you 110.

As for electric motors, they will tolerate small voltage swings with no problem. Electronics not so much.

 

[jatoxico]

At the end of the summer I did a fair amount of research and work sorting out my generator situation. I was getting voltage drop so I went through all connections and upgraded the cord from 12 to 10ga (which didn't give as much as I hoped for) and now am getting good power to all critical circuits. I'm feeding through a 6 circuit switch which I rewired to update to my current needs.

My older gen is a Coleman 5000 W continuous 240V, 30amp(?). It uses about 5g gas in about 8-10hrs depending. Been unfortunate enough to have to rely on it several times for extended periods and feeding it gas, especially when everyone else is trying to do the same thing is tough. So unless you want to store 20+ g it is a PITA not to mention its ungodly loud.

So now I bought a 2000 W, 120V inverter generator that runs 8-10hrs on a gallon and its comparatively silent. I'm feeding through the same 6 circuit switch and I can now get through most outages with the gas I typically have on hand. Its nice that during low demand times I'm not the big set to run a few light bulbs.

There are considerations to feeding both sides of the panel 120 V in phase especially shared neutral circuits. If anyone does this its something you should educate yourself on.

 

[begreen]

At the end of the summer I did a fair amount of research and work sorting out my generator situation. I was getting voltage drop so I went through all connections and upgraded the cord from 12 to 10ga (which didn't give as much as I hoped for) and now am getting good power to all critical circuits. I'm feeding through a 6 circuit switch which I rewired to update to my current needs.

My older gen is a Coleman 5000 W continuous 240V, 30amp(?). It uses about 5g gas in about 8-10hrs depending. Been unfortunate enough to have to rely on it several times for extended periods and feeding it gas, especially when everyone else is trying to do the same thing is tough. So unless you want to store 20+ g it is a PITA not to mention its ungodly loud.

So now I bought a 2000 W, 120V inverter generator that runs 8-10hrs on a gallon and its comparatively silent. I'm feeding through the same 6 circuit switch and I can now get through most outages with the gas I typically have on hand. Its nice that during low demand times I'm not the big set to run a few light bulbs.

There are considerations to feeding both sides of the panel 120 V in phase especially shared neutral circuits. If anyone does this its something you should educate yourself on.

That pretty well matches up with our situation. We had the same Coleman generator. It was loud and was not practical for week long outages unless I wanted to stock a lot of gasoline. I tried that for a while until all the 5 gallon containers developed a split on top. Also, none of the UPSs in the house would work on its dirty AC, so I couldn't recharge them. Now we have a 2.4kW Yamaha inverter generator. It easily powers refrigs, freezer, some lights and tv. Everything works fine, it's quite quiet, miserly with fuel and setup to run on gas or propane. I've only run it on propane so far. We always have a few 20# 4.6 gal cylinders on hand and a large 100#, 25gal. cylinder for emergency reserve. There's also a 120gal tank for the cooktop that I could patch into in a serious emergency. Of course, Murphy's law says that as soon as I got the new generartor long outages have ceased. The longest so far has only been a day. The generator has more time on it for maintenance running than it does for emergency power.

 

[jatoxico]

Now we have a 2.4kW Yamaha inverter generator. It easily powers refrigs, freezer, some lights and tv. Everything works fine, it's quite quiet, miserly with fuel and setup to run on gas or propane.

Yamaha's are great unit and the multi-fuel option is a big plus. It does come down to how much you want to spend considering expected use. I went with the Champion 2000 which is surprisingly well built and thought out for only $450. For example it has a fuel shutoff valve for short term storage and an easy access carb drain on the float bowl for longer term. Equivalent Honda does not either AFAIK.

Its nice to be able to stand next to the unit and not have to raise your voice to talk.

 

[begreen]

Yes, since our purchase Champion has established itself with a good reputation and they make a dual-fuel version. I would probably go for one today if I did it again, though one thing I like about the Yamaha is the automatic switching to economy mode. The Champion is manually switched.

 

[fbelec]

all service panels today are made so if you put a 2 pole 30 amp breaker in for example think of starting at the top of your panel and go down in a straight line top breaker is on phase A 2nd breaker is on phase B 3rd breaker is on phase A 4th breaker is on phase B and so on down the line. if you have a set of circuits running on a 3 wire to the panel black and red to breakers one below the others the shared neutral is good that way 10 amps on one of those wires and 8 amps on the other the neutral see's 2 amps. if you have a shared neutral with the breakers across from each other on the same phase that same circuit see's 18 amps. so if you are running a shared neutral on a 120 generator you have a fire hazard. you could overload the neutral. if you don't understand this then to be on the safe side you should call in a electrician for a quick look see just to make sure.

if you have your interlock is installed right you should only be able to put the utility on and not the generator breaker and the same for if the generator breaker is on you should not be able to turn on the utility breaker at the same time if so it's not installed right and someone could get hurt.

 

[jatoxico]

if you have a set of circuits running on a 3 wire to the panel black and red to breakers one below the others the shared neutral is good that way 10 amps on one of those wires and 8 amps on the other the neutral see's 2 amps. if you have a shared neutral with the breakers across from each other on the same phase that same circuit see's 18 amps.

So if the wire for your shared neutral is rated for 15 amps you could exceed its rating because the hots are in phase. My understanding is if your house is wired that way (above bold) it would be incorrect for even line power. For 120 V generator use you are now putting any correctly (for line power) wired shared neutral circuits in phase, potentially overloading the neutral.

This is the most likely reason they don't make a cord for this application and you would have to make your own. Many electricians to feel the likelihood of exceeding the capacity of the neutral in the real world is low, others disagree.

In my case I have several but avoided using them since mostly they are not needed. There is one but I wired and use my transfer switch so only one hot can ever potentially be used. There is also the possibility of energizing the other hot on in the 3 wire so the breaker for that must be opened.

If you are using a simple interlock then any circuit could be used and much greater chance of a problem so you would need to ID if you have any shared neutrals. Also you cannot power any 220, obvious but just worth mentioning.

 

[Ashful]

So if the wire for your shared neutral is rated for 15 amps you could exceed its rating because the hots are in phase. My understanding is if your house is wired that way (above bold) it would be incorrect for even line power. For 120 V generator use you are now putting any correctly (for line power) wired shared neutral circuits in phase, potentially overloading the neutral.

This is the most likely reason they don't make a cord for this application and you would have to make your own. Many electricians to feel the likelihood of exceeding the capacity of the neutral in the real world is low, others disagree.

In my case I have several but avoided using them since mostly they are not needed. There is one but I wired and use my transfer switch so only one hot can ever potentially be used. There is also the possibility of energizing the other hot on in the 3 wire so the breaker for that must be opened.

If you are using a simple interlock then any circuit could be used and much greater chance of a problem so you would need to ID if you have any shared neutrals. Also you cannot power any 220, obvious but just worth mentioning.

You are correct, jatoxico. Fbelec’s A and B legs, often improperly called “phases” are in permanent anti-phase. Thus, the current on the neutral wire is the difference in the current between the two legs, the so-called “phase imbalance”. It is not the sum of the currents, as he seemed to imply.

 

[jatoxico]

You are correct, jatoxico. Fbelec’s A and B legs, often improperly called “phases” are in permanent anti-phase. Thus, the current on the neutral wire is the difference in the current between the two legs, the so-called “phase imbalance”. It is not the sum of the currents, as he seemed to imply.

Not being either I'm sure I'm guilty of bastardizing the terms and lingo.

 

[fbelec]

it's late and i must be reading wrong the sum is only added up if the two circuits are on the same leg but if the two circuits are on opposite legs it's the difference. if i am not reading wrong nevermind
i have seen many times the red and black on the same leg and yes the neutral does get overloaded. you know it's been running hot when you look at the white wire and it's brown. then i try stripping the sheath and it's melted to the wires.

 

[jatoxico]

i have seen many times the red and black on the same leg and yes the neutral does get overloaded. you know it's been running hot when you look at the white wire and it's brown. then i try stripping the sheath and it's melted to the wires.

This makes me think I should clarify my earlier comment:

Many electricians feel the likelihood of exceeding the capacity of the neutral in the real world is low, others disagree.

The disagreement only apples to MWBC's in use when running off small 120V inverter generators. For example my 2000W only delivers 14.2 amp so the possibility of melting a wire rated for 15 amp without overloading the generator is low. Even so, wires, insulation and connections age so I still take the precautions I mentioned.