BK Ashford 30 Install

[SculptureOfSound]

I hate to see this because I know how much it sucks to gave your install give you problems (I don't have a BK but I had weird fumes..ended up being the Roxul against the unit, pulled the stove and did a major cleaning to get rid of all the fibers everywhere, took something like 20 hours - don't ask). Thankfully that rectified my situation because honestly if I couldn't burn without fumes I was going to let the stove sit cold all season... wasn't willing to risk it with a one year old in the house.

I think I'd throw in the towel in your situation just for the kids' sake. All that creo smoke can't be good. really sucks that the dealer has abandoned you. Maybe you could disconnect the stove, take it outside and do some kind of smoke test (burn a smoke bomb in it??? Not sure the best approach) and see if there are any bad welds or other areas the smoke is leaking out

 

[Mnpellet]

So was that 25% on a fresh split at room temperature? Are you running fresh load on high for 20-30 minuets before turning thermostat down?

 

[SpaceBus]

Could the smoke be entering your house after it leaves the top of the flue? You keep mentioning the flame getting snuffed out, isn't that the point of the cat stove? From what I understand cat stove run best when there isn't an active flame and the cat is burning smoke from smoldering wood. This would mean no visible flame and proper operation so long as the cat stays in the active range.

 

[begreen]

Could the smoke be entering your house after it leaves the top of the flue? You keep mentioning the flame getting snuffed out, isn't that the point of the cat stove? From what I understand cat stove run best when there isn't an active flame and the cat is burning smoke from smoldering wood. This would mean no visible flame and proper operation so long as the cat stays in the active range.

Yes, cat stoves run best when the cat is active, but visible flame does not diminish the quality of heating when a flame is present. It's not the point of a cat stove. Many cat owners have to run their stoves at a high enough rate so that visible flames are present.

 

[ValleyCottageSplitter]

So update from this morning. Sycamore is very dry at 17%. Just split one larger ugly this morning. The wetter looking ash is no more than 20%. For about 1hr it was fine this morning, no smell at all with 25°F outside. I turned it down after about 15-20min slowly to about 65% and it slowed down at mid medium range. My wife says there was a very faint amount of creo smell about 2hrs afterwards and it aired out in just a few minutes with the window open upstairs. It had warmed to 32°F.

The reoccurring trends throughout this project:

1. Smaller and lighter woods heat up the box too hot and the stat turns down to far too low of a level for my setup. That's what happened last night. The other nights were not completely filled which means it is less likely to get the stat as hot. Plus I was running some locust which burns slower.
2. Outside temp: Seems to be some sub-optimal range from 30-38 degrees where the draft is lower but the chimney cools too quickly. Above that the chimney stays warmer.

In general everything seems to have made an improvement: the 3ft extension, the 45's, removing the adapter, bypass fully closed. I don't have a draft measurement setup yet still but I'm pretty confident the issue is that my setup can't reliably support tstat below 75% if the stove is too hot. Tiny flames to no flame can't be supported with my draft. It turns down too much and effectively stalls out the wood until it cools enough to get the flow high enough. Where it is running now I can support some relatively good burn times over 10hrs with little to no creo emission. That is a huge improvement. This may be sustainable if I keep my wood averaging above 5lbs vs 1-2lbs and use 20+MBTU wood that burns slow. I have to be careful to not let the box get too hot during startup.

If I want to play it safe I can go back to E-W loads and get nice even 6-8hr burn times with only about 20lbs of wood and there is no creo emitted. I'll see how it's running the next couple days and see if there is a good procedure that keeps it running clean with N-S loads...

 

[begreen]

You're a patient fellow.

 

[ValleyCottageSplitter]

@begreen
Not sure what else I can do after throwing down almost $10K on this install. I can give up and throw away at least half of that or try to limp along and try to enjoy the stove as best as possible. I'm sure most people have a little smoke spillage at some point in the season. Now it doesn't seems any worse than a little smoke spillage (a small smell for no more than 15min or so every few days).

 

[begreen]

It's an odd situation. The thermostat is supposed to prevent the firebox from getting too hot. Smoke getting into the house is not a normal thing. If it happens in our house, I hear about it quickly. The stove still has high value. If problems persist there is the option of selling the stove at a slight loss to recoup that cost and then invest it in a different stove using the current flue/hearth.

 

[ValleyCottageSplitter]

Yes, but I won't be able to recoup the other $6k in install costs. I'm not sure there is another stove that will suit our needs. Any other cat stove will likely have the same draft issues and a tube stove will either run way too hot or have poor burn times. If it puts out 75kBTU for 3 hours that room will be 90 degrees and the other rooms will be at 60 degrees without the boiler running. Then I'll have to load a cold stove 6 hours later. The one potential option could be to downgrade to an Ashford 20 and run it at higher temps though I might not get the burn times I need. Not sure if that will have a harder time trying to heat the huge flue volume.

Other options for keeping the AF30 would be to run a chase and remove the extra 30° elbows or run the flue through the house with two 45's offset to the right position through the floor.

Like I said, I can run the stove E-W for 8 hours with no problems and it puts out nice even heat the whole time. It can run great on high N-S loaded for about 8 hours as well when it's in the 20's or below. Unfortunately I'm usually out of the house for at least 10hrs and I get very inconsistent help reloading the stove.

I'm certainly not the only person that has had creo problems with a BK. Many people I've talked to have stalled their BK at least once or twice a season and have gotten creo smell. If I had known there would be a risk of this I would have done things completely different. At a minimum I'd would have done the chimney completely different. Now I'm stuck trying to deal with what I have.

 

[Highbeam]

If it puts out 75kBTU for 3 hours that room will be 90 degrees and the other rooms will be at 60 degrees without the boiler running.

When a manufacturer says "max output of 75k btu" they don't mean that it has to be run at 75k btu or even that it is capable of putting out 75k btu for more than a second. It's just the peak possible. Most stoves, even the noncats, have some ability to be turned down. At least the marketing on the BK specifies a more useful maximum output for a specific number of hours.

All BKs have about the same range of outputs, it's just the fuel tank size that varies. The only reason to go to a 20 box is for the slight difference in physical size or the lower purchase price.

Your cold Dr. Seuss chimney on the outside of the house is likely a contributor to poor draft at low settings. I would suggest measuring draft strength but to do that you run the stove at full throttle which doesn't tell you much about draft strength at low output settings where you have trouble.

 

[ValleyCottageSplitter]

When a manufacturer says "max output of 75k btu" they don't mean that it has to be run at 75k btu or even that it is capable of putting out 75k btu for more than a second. It's just the peak possible. Most stoves, even the noncats, have some ability to be turned down.

Yes sure, I might be exaggerating with the numbers but I think I'll have a much harder time with a non-cat stove trying to get it to last 8+ hours and keep a reasonable heat output. My friend nearby has a 2.0cu. ft Jotul with similar house layout and he's been loading it one log at a time to keep his room a minimum of 75°F most of the winter. He can't get himself to run more than 1 cord a season and can't run it overnight without the upstairs getting to 80°F. That sounds miserable.

 

[Mnpellet]

So I’m trying to understand why EW vs NS loading would make a difference if it’s a draft problem? I’m sure I read something wrong but seems you have less trouble with EW loading? Does wind direction outside make a difference that you noticed?

 

[ValleyCottageSplitter]

I can load 20lbs E-W in the back of the stove, leave the stat above 75-80% and it runs at low/medium for about 8 hours. No creosote smell because the box never gets hot enough to turn down the tstat and there is good flow through the stove throughout the whole burn. It pretty much burns one log at a time because it blocks the air from reaching the other wood.

 

[bholler]

Yes sure, I might be exaggerating with the numbers but I think I'll have a much harder time with a non-cat stove trying to get it to last 8+ hours and keep a reasonable heat output. My friend nearby has a 2.0cu. ft Jotul with similar house layout and he's been loading it one log at a time to keep his room a minimum of 75°F most of the winter. He can't get himself to run more than 1 cord a season and can't run it overnight without the upstairs getting to 80°F. That sounds miserable.

Many of us have heated our houses just fine with bobcats for years. I am not saying that is the right solution for you but noncats can work very well.

Btw just because your neighbor can't figure out how to make his stove work for him really has no bearing on how it would work for you.

 

[Highbeam]

Yes sure, I might be exaggerating with the numbers but I think I'll have a much harder time with a non-cat stove trying to get it to last 8+ hours and keep a reasonable heat output. My friend nearby has a 2.0cu. ft Jotul with similar house layout and he's been loading it one log at a time to keep his room a minimum of 75°F most of the winter. He can't get himself to run more than 1 cord a season and can't run it overnight without the upstairs getting to 80°F. That sounds miserable.

Lots of people are able to do a better job with noncats than your friend. That said, my house is 75 inside right now (on purpose) and has been since I loaded last night at 6pm and will still be 75 when I reload at 6 pm tonight. That constant 24 hour thermostatic heat output from the BK is perfect for my particular home. A pellet stove would probably be able to match the performance of a good cat stove if you can tolerate the side effects of pellet heat.

 

[ValleyCottageSplitter]

Many of us have heated our houses just fine with bobcats for years. I am not saying that is the right solution for you but noncats can work very well.

Btw just because your neighbor can't figure out how to make his stove work for him really has no bearing on how it would work for you.

Sure, but based on how the AF30 is performing we'd ideally need longer burn times and lower heat output. I can't imagine a non-cat will be able to keep our downstairs at 73° for 10 hours and have a nice bed of coals to reload.

@Highbeam I don't assume you'd want to switch to an Englander 30NC would you? That is the same situation for my house as well. The BK does great when it can run slowly for many hours. It's just enough circulation to get all the rooms upstairs. Pellet is no-go for me. That would double my heating costs. I can [relatively] easily get a few cords of free wood per year and it will slowly pay itself off (not doing great this year but that is because windows are open and we have been trying to keep creo smoke out of the rooms).

If there is a better drafting and better sealed cat stove I would certainly take a look but I have only seen worse stories with other stoves.

 

[bholler]

Sure, but based on how the AF30 is performing we'd ideally need longer burn times and lower heat output. I can't imagine a non-cat will be able to keep our downstairs at 73° for 10 hours and have a nice bed of coals to reload.

@Highbeam I don't assume you'd want to switch to an Englander 30NC would you? That is the same situation for my house as well. The BK does great when it can run slowly for many hours. It's just enough circulation to get all the rooms upstairs. Pellet is no-go for me. That would double my heating costs. I can [relatively] easily get a few cords of free wood per year and it will slowly pay itself off (not doing great this year but that is because windows are open and we have been trying to keep creo smoke out of the rooms).

If there is a better drafting and better sealed cat stove I would certainly take a look but I have only seen worse stories with other stoves.

I was abke to do that with my regency 3100 pretty well. Of course it was not as even and constant as the princess i am currently using. But it was just fine and it will be again next season when it goes back in.

 

[Highbeam]

Sure, but based on how the AF30 is performing we'd ideally need longer burn times and lower heat output. I can't imagine a non-cat will be able to keep our downstairs at 73° for 10 hours and have a nice bed of coals to reload.

@Highbeam I don't assume you'd want to switch to an Englander 30NC would you? That is the same situation for my house as well. The BK does great when it can run slowly for many hours. It's just enough circulation to get all the rooms upstairs. Pellet is no-go for me. That would double my heating costs. I can [relatively] easily get a few cords of free wood per year and it will slowly pay itself off.

If there is a better drafting and better sealed cat stove I would certainly take a look but I have only seen worse stories with other stoves.

I already had a noncat in my house and upgraded to the BK. The whole family much prefers the ugly princess stove with almost no visible flame due to the vastly superior performance keeping my particular home comfortable. The old noncat was a pretty stone stove with a pretty fireview that kept us warm "on average" but the short burn times meant cyclical heat and cold mornings. I do have an NC30 in my shop, in that application I use the strengths of a noncat to make big heat over a short time period.

Other cat stoves that perform well and are not known for being draft sensitive are from woodstock. If BK went away and I needed to choose another cat stove it would be a woodstock IS. I do not like soapstone. The IS is fairly cheap too.

 

[bholler]

Sure, but based on how the AF30 is performing we'd ideally need longer burn times and lower heat output. I can't imagine a non-cat will be able to keep our downstairs at 73° for 10 hours and have a nice bed of coals to reload.

@Highbeam I don't assume you'd want to switch to an Englander 30NC would you? That is the same situation for my house as well. The BK does great when it can run slowly for many hours. It's just enough circulation to get all the rooms upstairs. Pellet is no-go for me. That would double my heating costs. I can [relatively] easily get a few cords of free wood per year and it will slowly pay itself off (not doing great this year but that is because windows are open and we have been trying to keep creo smoke out of the rooms).

If there is a better drafting and better sealed cat stove I would certainly take a look but I have only seen worse stories with other stoves.

I really think you need to measure your draft. That should have been done a long time ago when you first started having problems.

 

[begreen]

He can't get himself to run more than 1 cord a season and can't run it overnight without the upstairs getting to 80°F. That sounds miserable.

Every house varies. If he is adequately heating on 1 cord in NYS he either has a small house or one that is exceptionally well insulated or there is supplemental heat also running. Each situation is different. For sure you don't need or want to be running a stove, even a non-cat, at full output all the time. The operator controls the heat output, just like you are doing now. But I hear you on needing long burntimes because you are away at work.

FWIW, sister still lives at the top of Westchester and their house is superinsulated. They use about 2 cords a year to heat a 2100? sq ft house.

 

[ValleyCottageSplitter]

I really think you need to measure your draft. That should have been done a long time ago when you first started having problems.

Yes, I'm having trouble finding information on how to install it. Sending you a PM for details...

@begreen No this friend is running mostly NG furnace. He doesn't run the stove at all at night and not everyday. He hadn't been able to figure out an overnight load without overheating the house.

Yes I'm near Westchester. I'm about 1.5 cords in so far supplementing about 2/3 my heat since Dec. Could do much better with all the upstairs doors open at night.

 

[Highbeam]

Yes, I'm having trouble finding information on how to install it. Sending you a PM for details...

@begreen No this friend is running mostly NG furnace. He doesn't run the stove at all at night and not everyday. He hadn't been able to figure out an overnight load without overheating the house.

Yes I'm near Westchester. I'm about 1.5 cords in so far supplementing about 2/3 my heat since Dec. Could do much better with all the upstairs doors open at night.

There have been some pretty good posts about how to measure draft on a bk recently. You can actually use the existing cat probe hole.

 

[ValleyCottageSplitter]

There have been some pretty good posts about how to measure draft on a bk recently. You can actually use the existing cat probe hole.

Oh nice, that is perfect. I don't want to tap it or anything though. I will look around for those threads and probably order a meter tonight... Couldn't find any a week or two ago about installing the pressure tap. That will give me a lot more information what is going on.

 

[bholler]

Oh nice, that is perfect. I don't want to tap it or anything though. I will look around for those threads and probably order a meter tonight... Couldn't find any a week or two ago about installing the pressure tap.

It is not a big deal. Most just need a 1/4" hole.

 

[lsucet]

Oh nice, that is perfect. I don't want to tap it or anything though. I will look around for those threads and probably order a meter tonight... Couldn't find any a week or two ago about installing the pressure tap. That will give me a lot more information what is going on.

You can get one of this.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07NDKZ1TS/?tag=hearthamazon-20