Have we reached a tipping point?

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You would be in the very small minority. Add a single family to the carbon based population of a first world country and all your carbon neutral contributions are offset right there. Not that what your doing is meaningless ,i think its great, but will it change the climate equation. Very little IMO. As far as saving money on energy your approach is top notch. But unless its adopted by large numbers of people in first world countries ,may not solve the problem.
Change doesn't happen overnight, but it does happen. People want to see change and most want to leave a better world for their children. We were early adopters of solar and an electric car. For a few years, we were sort of loners, but people asked questions about our solar setup and car. Word of mouth and personal experience are powerful. And the word spread. Being rural, but a neighbor of Seattle where gas prices are high, our local gas prices are very high, so electric driving makes good sense. Now in our small community, there are hundreds of solar installations and electric cars. Like ripples in a pond the word is spreading outward. We live in hilly country so brakes wear out faster. Being rural, car maintenance can be a bit of a pain due to fewer mechanics unless one goes to the city to have the work done. An electric car fits in perfectly. Our car has 37K on it and the brakes are at 60% still. The only maintenance has been tire rotations and a couple oil changes for the generator.

The same thing can be said for consumption. Locally, through education, networking and persistence, in 5 yrs. we have managed to double the community recycling rate every other year. We talked the county into providing a system for yard waste composting that has taken thousands of tons of organics out of the landfill stream. And this is not just our community. As we network we are finding many communities doing the same, some a lot better! As these networks communicate, support has grown to the point where we now have a statewide voice that is eliminating as much single-use plastic as possible from the waste stream. In the past two years several of these bills have passed. Change can happen, even if you are an individual.
 
You would be in the very small minority.
Well yeah, for now. But like begreen said, people see it and start asking questions, and it shakes up their assumptions. In the rural area that I live half the year, people ask a lot of questions about the solar panels - it is obvious that they didn't know this was a possibility or was told it doesn't work. It's a great opportunity to give them a tour of the house I am renovating, show them the production meter, show them the geothermal system it's connected to, etc.

Same thing with the car. Nobody at my employer even had a plug-in hybrid. I bought an EV, lots of people started asking me questions about how they worked, what the range was, did it work in the winter, how much did it cost, etc. The answers are all good - people just don't know. Now, 10 months later, there is another full EV and two plug-in HEVs in the parking lot, along with a charging system. When people see it and talk about it, it gets real and isn't some abstract fantasy anymore.
 
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Well yeah, for now. But like begreen said, people see it and start asking questions, and it shakes up their assumptions. In the rural area that I live half the year, people ask a lot of questions about the solar panels - it is obvious that they didn't know this was a possibility or was told it doesn't work. It's a great opportunity to give them a tour of the house I am renovating, show them the production meter, show them the geothermal system it's connected to, etc.

Same thing with the car. Nobody at my employer even had a plug-in hybrid. I bought an EV, lots of people started asking me questions about how they worked, what the range was, did it work in the winter, how much did it cost, etc. The answers are all good - people just don't know. Now, 10 months later, there is another full EV and two plug-in HEVs in the parking lot, along with a charging system. When people see it and talk about it, it gets real and isn't some abstract fantasy anymore.
Seeing is believing
 
The question is will electric cars and solar panels slow global warming. As long as the population continues to increase and the majority of the rest or the world does little or nothing to reduce their carbon footprint,probably not a significant amount. At least not enough to avoid a tipping point which may have already occurred. In fact the warming seems to be increasing at a faster rate all the time , so clearly much more is needed to make any meaningful impact.
 
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The question is will electric cars and solar panels slow global warming. As long as the population continues to increase and the majority of the rest or the world does little or nothing to reduce their carbon footprint,probably not a significant amount. At least not enough to avoid a tipping point which may have already occurred. In fact the warming seems to be increasing at a faster rate all the time , so clearly much more is needed to make any meaningful impact.

... and we’ve come full circle. But I think we already answered that question, to the degree it’s possible. See the links in begreen’s post #22 and my post #45.
 
Any reliable numbers on how much the effort so far has slowed the warming ?
 
Any reliable numbers on how much the effort so far has slowed the warming ?

I think that would be a difficult correlation to make, directly. Estimates could be made on the impact of that one factor, but I fail to understand why that would matter for anything other than arguing what fraction of our tax money goes toward incentivizing one alternative over another. Of course, I always argue that number should be zero, beyond the necessary evil of some short-term programs sometimes required to create momentum.

We know 28% of the total US energy usage is transportation fuels, and 58% of that is in passenger cars, meaning fuel for passenger cars make up 16% of the total national energy use. That is substantial. Given that we have technology to replace ICE’s with something cleaner, that is also become more attractive and viable each year, there’s not much point in trying to argue the merit of going that direction.

You can always poke holes, anytime data is incomplete or the equation is in flux, but what’s the point? Like you, I love the roar of a big displacement ICE, and will likely always own one for my fun car. But it’s really just silly to try to poke any holes in the overall merit of EV’s as a long-term improvement for masses of commuters, no matter the exact percentage of their contribution.

Damn... I’m starting to sound like a leftie. [emoji12]
 
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I can definitely see an EV in my future but more for reasons other than any percieved effect on the climate. I think ill get sucked in by the performance vs cost of fuel and get hooked on the overall simplicity of the concept. I do think of them as an improvement in many ways of relying on a single method of propulsion and all the complexities that come with ICE transportion. Plus its nice to see some competition in a sector thats had none for so long.
 
It's become apparent that we have underestimated the velocity at which the planet is warming. Human change in relation is moving much slower. Soon, the discussion of whether this or that is contributing more and what is most effective may be a moot point. Everything will start to change at this increasingly accelerated pace.

This is an opinion piece, but it does summarize part of why we have missed the mark and why scientists seriously underestimated the rate of change.
 
This is an opinion piece, but it does summarize part of why we have missed the mark and why scientists seriously underestimated the rate of change.
Yea i see the opinion part near the end where the NY Times just cant help themselves to stick to the science.
 
Yea i see the opinion part near the end where the NY Times just cant help themselves to stick to the science.
That is not the voice of the paper, it is the opinion of the independent author. And yes, like it or not, US policy shifts are not helping.
 
I think that is a great way to look at it, and as a society we can do orders of magnitude better than what is currently being done.

But there are many technological hurdles to overcome yet before this can become widespread, particularly in climates like mine. Space heating is a very taxing load on the energy systems and unfortunately comes at the time when renewable energy is the most inefficient to use. Our electrical grid often reaches peak demand on cold days yet most homes and businesses are heated by natural gas, this immense electrical load comes mostly from the furnace motors.

Electric cars are seeing slow adoption here for the same reasons, -40 temps sap a huge amount of the battery to create cabin heat, and a significant amount of electricity is needed from a constant charging source to keep the batteries warm enough to be usable while the car is parked.

How many first world homes are leaking energy profusely? I'm not saying everyone needs to live in a brand new house (new homes have their own issues), but having lived for more than 20 years in a house built close to 60 years ago, there are plenty of opportunities for making old homes more efficient which lowers demand on fossil fuels from the power plants for years to come.

As a native of Florida, -11°F (-24°C) saps nearly ALL my energy to get out of a warm bed with an electric blanket. You have my respect for being willing to get out of bed in AB when it's -40°C. (My freezer doesn't get that cold.) To combat your BEV concern regarding poor range when batteries are in extreme cold situations, why could this not be solved with something as simple as a fossil fuel space heater similar to what the air cooled Porsche and VW's used to use? Webasto still makes fossil fueled heating devices for cars, boats, caravans and motor homes. Throw a parking heater in the BEV, and put a purpose built heating device to a task that fossil fuel works well for. Automobiles have taken the engine "waste heat" for granted for decades. Most automobiles are poorly insulated steel containers which have been heated for decades with "waste heat" that was going to be thrown away otherwise. In many BEV's, there may be an aerodynamic underbody panel to help air pass smoothly under the car, but most will NOT have an insulating blanket to help keep the batteries more hospitably warm in -40°C. If you're warming the vehicle cabin with a fossil fueled heater, you've generally got one side of the battery hospitably warm to human standards. If we can keep the space shuttle from burning up on re-entry into the Earth's atmosphere, then there's probably some form of ruggedized insulation out there we could put on the bottom of a BEV battery to keep some warmth from being wasted to the cold air around the car. If you installed these battery insulation panels when you installed your snow tires and removed them when you remove your snow tires, we could probably solve a large chunk of the battery range concern in cold climates.

VW employed a "heat pump" to better equip their battery powered cars for extended use in colder climates. I'm not saying that's a solution for -40°C, most heat pumps will find little heat energy to extract from the air at -40°C. I didn't bother with that option, because where I live we don't see prolonged sub-freezing temperatures.

Your -40°C is extreme, but apparently a reasonable climatic hurdle where you live. I remember in college trying to use my SLR camera in near freezing weather and having to warm up the battery to be able to take photos. In your climate, a true hybrid vehicle may be a better solution, since it already carries a tank of fossil fuel around, and could be easily retrofitted with a parking heater style system. My e-Golf was designed from a chassis that also carries conventional fossil fueled engines in the engine bay. As a result, there is an enormous amount of unused space under the hood in the engine compartment. Fitting something the size of a parking heater under the hood would be easy. Where to put fuel, so that it's safe in a vehicle crash, that's a different story. However, if some dedicated engineering minds treated this problem as if our lives depended on coming up with a solution, rather than sticking heads in the sand and ignoring the problem. We might approach a solution before the problem gets totally out of hand. In Europe (not sold this side of the Atlantic), VW sells a Golf GTE model that can plug in, or drive using fossil fuels (a true plug in Hybrid). Certainly, the Chevrolet Volt already does this plug-in Hybrid concept well and has been discussed.
 
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The question re energy is that people want energy 'services' heat, light, transport, food. They care about the cost of those services (all historically quite low in 2019) but not how they are produced. They want the heat to come on when they hit the button, they really don't care about the box in the basement.

And we are having more people globally, and those people want more services, so it looks like an impossible situation. But the renewable power revolution is happening, globally, and the US is bringing up the rear to be honest, and has been for a long time. So dinging those folks overseas that aren't doing anything.... just wow. :eek:

We have spent a LOT of time around here thinking about home heating, obviously, but if you can buy zero carbon electricity for cheap enough to heat your house ... then we don't need to scrap the old place and build a passive house. So, it is ALL ABOUT decarbonizing the electrical grid AND electrifying everything. Period. We will still have emissions, from food production, land use, making stuff, etc. But we will be more than halfway there. In the milder climates of the US, heat pumps already dominate. New Englanders with oil boilers don't get it, but by far most people have electrical heat or gas already. HP tech has improved, and they are continuing to spread north. And again, its not about getting the last 10% of homes, its about getting the carbon free needle over 50%, about getting the middle.

For the grid, we can already see the outlines clearly at this point. Coal is collapsing, economically, under its own weight. Gas and renewables are taking its place. I know gas leakage is a problem, but unlike CO2, it won't stick around for 500 years, just 20-30. So it still makes sense as a bridge fuel. And by that I mean gas is great for filling in supply for wind and solar before diurnal storage becomes cheap, and for augmenting supply seasonally (like those winters New England is famous for). The utilities KNOW what is coming over the next couple decades, and they are trying, if slowly to adapt and be ready.

So the big problem now is OIL. I am at a meeting of Chem-E's right now, and no one I talk to has a clue about the coming upheaval in the oil market. That is OIL DEMAND WILL PEAK. When Coal demand peaked a few years back, the coal majors when from some of the largest companies in the world to bankrupt, in the space of a year. The CW shifted that it wasn't a growth industry, it was a permanent decline industry, despite still being massively productive. And the valuations collapsed.

The oil majors (esp Exxon) are still selling the line of 'Oil demand will keep going up for decades'. When that CW shifts, many of them will get wiped out valuation-wise, despite some continuing to operate (at a lower scale). Independent analysts indicate that Exxon is the least well positioned major to handle peak demand, and likely to go belly up first (bc its oil production is more expensive than others, and they have the least hedging in gas). The management is fighting this reality with PR, rather than moving the business model. One can only conclude that the current mgmt is parasitic, getting what the can out before the ship goes down.

And what makes all this happen: EVs. Petroleum IS liquid coal from a CO2 intensity POV, it just doesn't make your hands as dirty. It needs to go. And the oil majors, in their 'energy outlook 20XX' booklets, cite increasing auto sales outside the US as their primary evidence that oil demand with grow forever. Take that away, and the growth market disappears. So CHEAP, NICE EVs, when they arrive, will kill the oil companies. Seriously. There will still be oil in use in 2100, but not nearly as much as today. And the problem is not about making the demand zero, its about the difference in finances bw growing and declining industries in our financial system.

And the other key thing about EVs is that they will HELP the electric companies decarbonize. Electrical demand will grow, and it is much easier to rebuild the generation fleet (and borrow money to do so) when demand is growing, than it is when demand is shrinking. By slowly lifting electrical demand, EVs allow rolling out RE at scale with private finance.

As for tipping points, I don't like the term. I think there are some tipping points, where a forest gets eaten by beetles, that couldn't spread previously. Or a wildfire can wipe out an arid forest. Or the habitat in a National Part changes to the point the animals trapped within go extinct. But I have never seen any credible science about a global climate tipping point. But the little ones are bad enough.
 
the overall merit of EV’s as a long-term improvement for masses of commuters, no matter the exact percentage of their contribution.
[emoji12]
That said you must be thinking of an EV in your future. The performance tesla would be my guess. Not?
 
Solar grid tie was a great option for many ,but the utilities (at least my Electric company)keep coming up with ways to make it a bad deal. More fees, paying you less or nothing for home generated electrons. They even abandoned time of use meters for long term grandfathered in customers ,which i didnt think was possible. Now they are backing out of the generation part of production more and more so i guess they see the writing on the wall for the future.
 
The question re energy is that people want energy 'services' heat, light, transport, food. They care about the cost of those services (all historically quite low in 2019) but not how they are produced. They want the heat to come on when they hit the button, they really don't care about the box in the basement.
Welcome back WoodGeek, you are missed.
Your above statement really does capture 90% of the consumer population. In my case, I had an oil fired boiler. When it came time to replace it I made an economic decision and went with a NG boiler. In 20 years, I expect I'll make an economic decision and replace that boiler with an Electric tankless wall mount unit (God willing that I'm still alive).

New Englanders with oil boilers don't get it, but by far most people have electrical heat or gas already.
Oh, we get it, but it is a small minority of zelots holding up approvals of 3 major NG pipelines into the NY/New England region. The NG winter supply problems prevent stable wholesale NG prices, prevent NG Utilities from expending their distribution network into more neighborhoods (ie build-out moratoriums), and prevent more electric power plants to do full scale NG conversions or even site re-powering to combined-cycle (because of site dual fuel requirements, ie 3 days of oil on hand for a new gas power plant). New Englanders would love to be able to make the economic decision to move away from oil.

I think the "no fossil under any circumstances" crowd are really their own worst enemy. Getting reliable lower cost Natural Gas into New England would:
1. allow home and business oil to gas conversions now (lowers cost & lowers GHG; 30 year impact)
2. allows wider electric power plant conversions (lowers electric cost & lowers GHG; 40 year impact)
3. lower electric rates will foster more rapid conversion form ICE to BEV vehicle fleet.
4. lower electric rates will foster more rapid conversion to home heating (air source HP and tankless boiler conversions).
5. may slow renewable energy (wind & solar), but not much as price/cost continue to drop for both every year.

And again, its not about getting the last 10% of homes, its about getting the carbon free needle over 50%, about getting the middle.
AMEN !
 
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How many first world homes are leaking energy profusely? I'm not saying everyone needs to live in a brand new house (new homes have their own issues), but having lived for more than 20 years in a house built close to 60 years ago, there are plenty of opportunities for making old homes more efficient which lowers demand on fossil fuels from the power plants for years to come.

As a native of Florida, -11°F (-24°C) saps nearly ALL my energy to get out of a warm bed with an electric blanket. You have my respect for being willing to get out of bed in AB when it's -40°C. (My freezer doesn't get that cold.) To combat your BEV concern regarding poor range when batteries are in extreme cold situations, why could this not be solved with something as simple as a fossil fuel space heater similar to what the air cooled Porsche and VW's used to use? Webasto still makes fossil fueled heating devices for cars, boats, caravans and motor homes. Throw a parking heater in the BEV, and put a purpose built heating device to a task that fossil fuel works well for. Automobiles have taken the engine "waste heat" for granted for decades. Most automobiles are poorly insulated steel containers which have been heated for decades with "waste heat" that was going to be thrown away otherwise. In many BEV's, there may be an aerodynamic underbody panel to help air pass smoothly under the car, but most will NOT have an insulating blanket to help keep the batteries more hospitably warm in -40°C. If you're warming the vehicle cabin with a fossil fueled heater, you've generally got one side of the battery hospitably warm to human standards. If we can keep the space shuttle from burning up on re-entry into the Earth's atmosphere, then there's probably some form of ruggedized insulation out there we could put on the bottom of a BEV battery to keep some warmth from being wasted to the cold air around the car. If you installed these battery insulation panels when you installed your snow tires and removed them when you remove your snow tires, we could probably solve a large chunk of the battery range concern in cold climates.

VW employed a "heat pump" to better equip their battery powered cars for extended use in colder climates. I'm not saying that's a solution for -40°C, most heat pumps will find little heat energy to extract from the air at -40°C. I didn't bother with that option, because where I live we don't see prolonged sub-freezing temperatures.

Your -40°C is extreme, but apparently a reasonable climatic hurdle where you live. I remember in college trying to use my SLR camera in near freezing weather and having to warm up the battery to be able to take photos. In your climate, a true hybrid vehicle may be a better solution, since it already carries a tank of fossil fuel around, and could be easily retrofitted with a parking heater style system. My e-Golf was designed from a chassis that also carries conventional fossil fueled engines in the engine bay. As a result, there is an enormous amount of unused space under the hood in the engine compartment. Fitting something the size of a parking heater under the hood would be easy. Where to put fuel, so that it's safe in a vehicle crash, that's a different story. However, if some dedicated engineering minds treated this problem as if our lives depended on coming up with a solution, rather than sticking heads in the sand and ignoring the problem. We might approach a solution before the problem gets totally out of hand. In Europe (not sold this side of the Atlantic), VW sells a Golf GTE model that can plug in, or drive using fossil fuels (a true plug in Hybrid). Certainly, the Chevrolet Volt already does this plug-in Hybrid concept well and has been discussed.

I agree that there is a lot of improvement to be made in homes, but we have had building codes in place for a long time now that enforce fairly strict rules on new construction. It would be difficult to find a house up here that has just 2x4 walls with R-12 insulation in the walls, and R22 in the roof. The vast majority of houses are 2x6 walls with R-20 insulation and R-40 in the roof. The building code was just changed 4 years ago making R-22 walls and R-50 attic insulation mandatory. The houses are also built very airtight and now require a heat recovery ventilator for fresh air ventilation, recovering the waste heat from exhaust air to heat incoming cold air.
The biggest area for improvement is in heating, until about 10 years ago high efficiency furnaces and water heaters weren't common, so replacing those 80% efficient units with 95% ones would see an improvement. But it's really hard for a homeowner to justify replacing something like an $1100 tanked water heater for a $4000 tankless high efficiency unit on a cost basis, the savings won't pay for the upgrade. Natural gas does represent the overwhelming majority of fuel use however, oil and coal never really caught on here, most of the people that did have it replaced it 20-40 years ago when natural gas was brought into more rural communities. Propane is now often used in rural settings where natural gas isn't available. Making heating about as clean as possible while still using fossil fuels. Currently our electrical grid only produces about 10% of its energy from renewables, the rest coming from natural gas and coal, making it less efficient than burning natural gas in your own home.

-40 can be extremely brutal, and its often easier to get out of bed than it is to get the equipment you need to run to start in those temps. In those temperatures many vehicles (especially diesels) need to have a plug in block heater to get enough heat into the engine to start. I have a diesel F350 and my GF a diesel Colorado that should be plugged in when its colder than -25. This could be taken into account with an electric car, this same energy could be used to heat the battery instead of the engine block. The biggest hurdle with this is getting car makers to realize we are a big enough market to be worthwhile incorporating the changes into their cars. Canada has a population of 38 million, about the same as California, and only about 10% of the US as a whole. The insulated battery would work, along with a better insulated cabin, we just need a manufacturer to implement it, or an aftermarket company to build a retrofit kit.

As to heat pumps, i have not yet seen a viable model that will work well in those temps either, rarely a house will have one here, but they are then ground source heat pumps, or only used to about -10 after which another system takes over for heating. A fossil fuel powered cabin/battery heater could work as well, but I'd want to see some numbers to show it is actually more efficient first. I'm concerned that between the electricity to move the car and the fossil heaters it might just be more efficient to power the vehicle with fossil fuels.

Plug in hybrids would be an option, although I haven't seen many, the purist "greenies" want a true EV to displace fossil fuels entirely, and the rest of us can't justify the extra cost for the amount of fuel used. Hybrids tend to shine in cities in stop and go traffic, up here communities are smaller, and a larger portion of mileage is on the highway travelling long distances. Our 2018 Chevy Colorado Diesel gets 8L/100km (29mpg) on the highway, a 2018 Chevy 1500 Hybrid gets 9.5L/100km (24mpg) on the highway. Although the 1500 is a bigger vehicle it would serve the same purpose as the Colorado for us, so we went with a conventional diesel engine with better economy and lower purchase price.

There are a few Toyota Prius around, but some have suffered issues with short battery life from the cold temperatures, but hopefully this can be or has been rectified. There is also the issue of driving in a place where it's winter 6 months of the year in a low clearance front wheel drive vehicle. Also a reason we use a small 4x4 truck as a daily driver.
 
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The question re energy is that...As for tipping points, I don't like the term.
As isnightful and intelligent a post as we’ve come to expect from you, woodgeek. Glad to see you here, you’ve been missed!
 
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That said you must be thinking of an EV in your future. The performance tesla would be my guess. Not?

It’s under consideration, but I have a love-hate relationship with current Tesla management. Great cars in so many ways, but stupid-high pricing for what you’re getting, and perhaps the most deceptive marketing since the snake-oil salesmen of pre-Victorian times. The majority of other EV’s presently on the market are aimed at guys like @jebatty and @woodgeek, and I respect that, but I’m not willing to sit on a sheet of cardboard in the plastic cockpit of a Leaf for the sake of devaluing my Exxon stock holdings.
 
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We must have reached a tipping point. Global warming is bringing record low temperatures to Wisconsin for this time of year. I'm sure @begreen will link me yet another (unbiased) NY Times article that clearly explains why global warming is causing the record cold temps.
 
We must have reached a tipping point. Global warming is bringing record low temperatures to Wisconsin for this time of year. I'm sure @begreen will link me yet another (unbiased) NY Times article that clearly explains why global warming is causing the record cold temps.
No can do, other than pass along an often repeated reminder that local weather is not climate. In the meantime, massive fires are still burning in Siberia and in Australia they are battling major wildfires a couple months early. Sept and Oct 2019 were the warmest globally on record. Indications are that 2019 may go down as the record warmest, TBD.
 
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No can do, other than pass along an often repeated reminder that local weather is not climate. In the meantime, massive fires are still burning in Siberia and in Australia they are battling major wildfires a couple months early. Sept and Oct 2019 were the warmest globally on record. Indications are that 2019 may go down as the record warmest, TBD.

So local weather is not climate so it is not relevant. However, localized methane bubbles in Siberia (article linked in your original post) is?
 
We must have reached a tipping point. Global warming is bringing record low temperatures to Wisconsin for this time of year. I'm sure @begreen will link me yet another (unbiased) NY Times article that clearly explains why global warming is causing the record cold temps.
What seems to be happening is the cold artic air is being pushed right down on top of us, while warmer air from places south of there(like just north of hawaii) is moving in up there to replace it. I know at times its colder here than in parts of alaska.
 
So local weather is not climate so it is not relevant. However, localized methane bubbles in Siberia (article linked in your original post) is?
Climate is the composite of weather conditions in a region, throughout the year, averaged over a series of years. Weather is relevant as part of a long term average. It's what is happening now. We are seeing many weather anomalies due to climate change. Stalled weather systems and some extreme weather events are the results of higher atmospheric and ocean temperatures.

Methane release from permafrost meltdown is a symptom of planetary warming, just like receding disappearing glaciers. Permafrost melting and methane release are not just in Siberia, this is happening throughout the Arctic, including Alaska and Canada. It will accelerate with the increasingly higher temps occurring in the Arctic. The reserves of trapped methane under permafrost are huge. Methane is a serious greenhouse gas. It traps up to 100 times more heat in the atmosphere than carbon dioxide.

 
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