new Vapor Fire 100 with very poor heat

[gary38532]

I heated my 2800 sqft home with a old Clayton 1800 for the last 6 year here in northern PA. It always did a very good job keeping the house 75 even on the coldest January nights. The only problem was it went through about 9 cords of wood and dirty the chimney all the time.
After reading all the great reviews on the Vapor Fire I decided to buy one and replace the old Clayton. Turns out the new furnace can barley raise the room temps even 2 degrees. Going from 64 to 66 on this very morning. Ive been back and forth with them for the last month trying to make it work with no progress. Here's what we've tried...
1. Adjusted door seals so no cold air can leak into the fire chamber
2. Adjusted damper to 3 so no hot air goes up the chimney
3. Checked fire wood with meter. Burning maple at 20%
4. Improved chimney pipe for a better draft. see photos
5. Removed both heat baffles to also improve draft
6. Adjust damper to 6 to improve draft
Now they want me to insulate my outside chimney claiming that the draft is to low and causing all the problems. I'm not sure i want to spend the money to do so because I don't think this stove will ever heat my home. Any help would be great!

 

[NoobTube]

Maybe @JRHAWK9 can help? He has been pretty upfront about his modifications to his Vapor Fire and seems pretty knowledgeable.

 

[NoobTube]

Just checking but, have you verified your draft with a manometer:

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Kuuma states you need to have between .03 and .06 WC for optimal operation. If you are not in that zone, the only real way to get that draft higher is to extend your chimney (I don't think insulating is going to make that much of a difference) Stated minimum chimney height is 14 feet, hard to tell from your picture but, you might be just under that?

 

[gary38532]

no I wanted to check it but I dont have a manometer and I don't know how to check it.

 

[JRHAWK9]

Without seeing some raw data and temps in various places and chimney draft it's hard to troubleshoot. One thing to keep in mind, all newer cleaner burning EPA furnaces will NOT have the raw horsepower of the old school units. You will not see the crazy high plenum temps you did with the Clayton.

How are your burn times? Assuming your draft is in check, I'm guessing it's not an issue of how the furnace is burning or creating heat, it's how the heat is being delivered to the house. How cold of air are you puling in from the basement floor?

How my furnace is heating my place now compared to the first couple years is night and day. It was no fault of the furnace, as it's burning the wood the same as it always has, but I dramatically changed how the BTU's being produced are being delivered to my house by increasing the temp of the cold air entering the unit and dramatically slowing down and varying the speed of the blower. I seem to be the exception though, as our house prefers higher supply temps/lower volume over higher volume of cooler air. I essentially just increased the delivered efficiency of the furnace.

no I wanted to check it but I dont have a manometer and I don't know how to check it.

You need to get one. You need to know what your draft is. This is the engine behind the furnace.

Without more hard data, it's going to be hard to do much via online.

 

[NoobTube]

Amazon has that Dwyer I listed above... Get it. Watch a video on Youtube how to use it and report back. My guess is that you are not drafting near enough. Although insulating your chimney might get you better draft, my guess is that extending your chimney will likely be the best bet for you for a cost-effective method...

 

[gary38532]

Im ordering one now

 

[NoobTube]

Keep this post updated. I'm definitely interested to hear back on what your measurement will be. For all intents and purposes, that Vapor Fire is a top notch machine. I'm certain that people like JRHAWK9 and others can help get it running right. Their threads on the Vapor Fire are just inspiring to read through. I wish I went the Vapor Fire route when I first was looking.

 

[JRHAWK9]

Do you have a SS liner in the chimney? What size of chimney?

The temperature of Kuuma's exhaust gasses will not be close to what the Clayton's was, so they are starting out much lower and then hitting that cold uninsulated chimney which cools them even further.

Figure out what you have for draft, that's the first thing.

 

[JRHAWK9]

Keep this post updated. I'm definitely interested to hear back on what your measurement will be. For all intents and purposes, that Vapor Fire is a top notch machine. I'm certain that people like JRHAWK9 and others can help get it running right. Their threads on the Vapor Fire are just inspiring to read through. I wish I went the Vapor Fire route when I first was looking.

@brenndatomu as well. He has experience in the old school stuff as well as Kuuma.

 

[gary38532]

Do you have a SS liner in the chimney? What size of chimney?

The temperature of Kuuma's exhaust gasses will not be close to what the Clayton's was, so they are starting out much lower and then hitting that cold uninsulated chimney which cools them even further.

Figure out what you have for draft, that's the first thing.

Thats what they said is the problem I'll have to do something about it

 

[gary38532]

Thats what they said is the problem I'll have to do something about it

no liner 8in

 

[laynes69]

I would recommend a home energy audit before placing blame on a unit. The only reason I say that is I had the exact same problem you're having....just to find out my home was leaking air like crazy. The old clayton (hotblast in my case) was just a bandaid to the problem. Not only did I cut wood consumption in half...I made the house much more comfortable both winter and summer. For the few hundred it will cost....I would do it.

 

[gary38532]

I would recommend a home energy audit before placing blame on a unit. The only reason I say that is I had the exact same problem you're having....just to find out my home was leaking air like crazy. The old clayton (hotblast in my case) was just a bandaid to the problem. Not only did I cut wood consumption in half...I made the house much more comfortable both winter and summer. For the few hundred it will cost....I would do it.

The main house is very well insulated the living room not so much. Its on a crawel space and has very high ceiling with big windows but I talked to lamppa about it all ready and they dont think its a probelm. Saying they heat homes alot worse then mine.

 

[JRHAWK9]

no liner 8in

Definitely not ideal and could very well be most of your problem. Just don't have the exhaust gas temp to create the draft needed in that large, uninsulated/exterior and short (?) chimney.

May need to run a 6" insulated liner in it.

 

[gary38532]

Definitely not ideal and could very well be most of your problem. Just don't have the exhaust gas temp to create the draft needed in that large, uninsulated/exterior and short (?) chimney.

May need to run a 6" insulated liner in it.

thats what I was thinking of doing I emailed them about it im waiting to here if they think its a good solution before spending the money

 

[brenndatomu]

no liner 8in

8" square masonry flue? That could be part of the issue...maybe. Get that Dwyer hooked up, that will tell the story on draft. Don't plan a liner just yet...but it would be money well spent even if you did it just for peace of mind...I'd be surprised if after all the creosote the Clayton put in the chimney, if it doesn't have some damage to the liner...only way to know is to camera the flue. Plus MANY chimney don't meet required clearance to combustible specs (where it goes through, or attaches to the house)
How big is the house (I missed that info maybe?) And what is the heat load like? Draft? What is the insulation like?
If you were burning 9 cords in the Clayton, that is a metric crap ton of BTUs! Like JR said, the old school burners can make a ton of heat...just kind of like running an old 70's big block V8...gonna eat you out of house and home...and stinky exhaust to boot!
Sure looks and sounds like the VF100 should heat your house just fine...just a matter of tweaking the setup. Have patience, hang in there, we'll get you through it.
FYI, I got my Kuuma used (for a few months) because the original owner had it installed by some hack HVAC guys, (that hacked things up several times!) and the owner finally gave up and sold it. My gain, his loss...I think it would have done the job if he had someone that could have helped him through it (I think he was getting conflicting advice from Lamppa and the HVAC dude) but it was a big ole leaky house, so who knows.

 

[lampmfg]

I'm glad to see this here, Gary. I was going to recommend posting it because many can help with this that is better with remote technology than Dale and my dad.

In all honesty, after reading your e-mail last night, I had called Dale this morning and told him to take the furnace back and refund your money. We understand you're frustrated, and it's challenging to deal with this, especially going into this time of the year.

However, we know that these work great and should heat your house no problem. The other guy who was recently having issues and worked through them with us is now in love with his Vapor-Fire 100. Customers swear by them, and we have them installed working great in our extremely frigid Northern climate.

If you want to try and make this thing work with the help of this forum, that would be great. If you try and can't get it working correctly, we will allow you to ship back and refund your money. We have a long list going right now, and I'm sure someone would gladly buy it.

 

[lampmfg]

You should also share the pictures of how it was set-up before you reached out to us. I want everyone to understand the changes that needed to be made. Thanks

 

[gary38532]

Im going to try to get it working before pulling the plug on it thanks

 

[gary38532]

8" square masonry flue? That could be part of the issue...maybe. Get that Dwyer hooked up, that will tell the story on draft. Don't plan a liner just yet...but it would be money well spent even if you did it just for peace of mind...I'd be surprised if after all the creosote the Clayton put in the chimney, if it doesn't have some damage to the liner...only way to know is to camera the flue. Plus MANY chimney don't meet required clearance to combustible specs (where it goes through, or attaches to the house)
How big is the house (I missed that info maybe?) And what is the heat load like? Draft? What is the insulation like?
If you were burning 9 cords in the Clayton, that is a metric crap ton of BTUs! Like JR said, the old school burners can make a ton of heat...just kind of like running an old 70's big block V8...gonna eat you out of house and home...and stinky exhaust to boot!
Sure looks and sounds like the VF100 should heat your house just fine...just a matter of tweaking the setup. Have patience, hang in there, we'll get you through it.
FYI, I got my Kuuma used (for a few months) because the original owner had it installed by some hack HVAC guys, (that hacked things up several times!) and the owner finally gave up and sold it. My gain, his loss...I think it would have done the job if he had someone that could have helped him through it (I think he was getting conflicting advice from Lamppa and the HVAC dude) but it was a big ole leaky house, so who knows.

its a brand new chimney first stove thats ever been hooked to it is the vapor fire

 

[gary38532]

before the pipe was changed. I dont do this the guys that installed it did.

 

[gary38532]

its a brand new chimney first stove thats ever been hooked to it is the vapor fire

and its a crap load of wood thats why I stoped it plus it would have burned the house down in the end with all the creosote

 

[JRHAWK9]

its a brand new chimney first stove thats ever been hooked to it is the vapor fire

So the pic you have of the chimney outside, is that of the new one? I'm confused as to what was all new? Was their a new 8" liner put up the masonry chimney?

 

[NoobTube]

So the pic you have of the chimney outside, is that of the new one? I'm confused as to what was all new? Was their a new 8" liner put up the masonry chimney?

That looks like its just chimney block with an 8" clay pipe flue attached... And if it's new... and he needs more draft (pending a test) It should be relatively easy to just buy another 10 or soblocks and add more clay pipe liner to extend it, no?