Economics

[Sodbuster]

I can only speak for myself, but I do not look down my nose at anybody who is working. Maybe they are working their way through school, maybe they are picking up a little extra money to help the family. It doesn't matter to me, it's none of my business, and I never even thought of it until I read this thread. Some jobs are only worth so much, they are entry level, and if they quit, they'll be replaced with another entry level person. If you want to make more money, you can't look to the government, you need to find a skill that employers are looking for.

 

[NickW]

Amen Sodbuster.

I reread my previous post about the "new" generation and some might get the wrong idea. There are some that are real go-getters, but it seems fewer every year. I'm looking at personal experience.

My 20 year old son is a great help at home and chores, but he's a "lost one" right now. Half his college fund on one semester and ended up with no credits... Couldn't handle the responsibility of being off at school alone. Wife and I cut it off and home he came. Worked spring through fall on a good job, made a buttload of money, got layed off. Now he doesn't know if he wants to go back because of the long hours and getting up at 4am. Gave us a line of BS (about the layed off/going back situation) to keep us off his back. Now we told him he SHOULD go get a burger flipping job. Maybe that would motivate him to get some sort of skill... Good kid, Eagle Scout, hard worker, no ambition or direction... FRUSTRATING Wish he'd learn a trade.

16 year old is even scarier. Several emotional/behavioral issues/diagnosis's and thinks he should have everything handed to him on a platter. Huge sense of entitlement. Hates all chores and expectations. Probably will take 5 years to get through high school, which I hope he does. What is an employer going to do with the attitude he gives at home and school? Reality is he won't be an "adult" at 18. One counselor/therapist said "hopefully by 25..." I feel for the poor kid. We adopted him at 5 and everything he had been holding in surfaced shortly into the first full school year he was with us. Will he even be able to hold an entry level job and have a successful future?

Sorry if I got off topic there, felt the need to vent a bit. Original point was that ANYBODY can become a valuable employee (or entrepreneur), they just have to want it and work at it. Doesn't matter if they're hood or hillbilly. It just can't be given to them. Sure, some have it easier than others and have people to bail them out when they screw up; but it all comes down to making a personal choice. It's difficult to choose to work hard when you can be comfortable not working... Unfortunately, eldest is doing his best to prove that. Time to grow up!

 

[begreen]

This thread seems less about the economy and more about - the kids today are blah blah blah. Heard that same line 50 years ago in a Simon and Garfunkel song "Save the life of my child". I appreciate that some folks here are self-made and have put in a lot hard work, but the scene today is not like what it was for the enterprising young man or woman in the 1970s. And the cold stop that Corvid-19 has introduced is going to reset the whole equation. The question is, what can we do better when we restart the machine?

 

[ABMax24]

Amen Sodbuster.

I reread my previous post about the "new" generation and some might get the wrong idea. There are some that are real go-getters, but it seems fewer every year. I'm looking at personal experience.

My 20 year old son is a great help at home and chores, but he's a "lost one" right now. Half his college fund on one semester and ended up with no credits... Couldn't handle the responsibility of being off at school alone. Wife and I cut it off and home he came. Worked spring through fall on a good job, made a buttload of money, got layed off. Now he doesn't know if he wants to go back because of the long hours and getting up at 4am. Gave us a line of BS (about the layed off/going back situation) to keep us off his back. Now we told him he SHOULD go get a burger flipping job. Maybe that would motivate him to get some sort of skill... Good kid, Eagle Scout, hard worker, no ambition or direction... FRUSTRATING Wish he'd learn a trade.

16 year old is even scarier. Several emotional/behavioral issues/diagnosis's and thinks he should have everything handed to him on a platter. Huge sense of entitlement. Hates all chores and expectations. Probably will take 5 years to get through high school, which I hope he does. What is an employer going to do with the attitude he gives at home and school? Reality is he won't be an "adult" at 18. One counselor/therapist said "hopefully by 25..." I feel for the poor kid. We adopted him at 5 and everything he had been holding in surfaced shortly into the first full school year he was with us. Will he even be able to hold an entry level job and have a successful future?

Sorry if I got off topic there, felt the need to vent a bit. Original point was that ANYBODY can become a valuable employee (or entrepreneur), they just have to want it and work at it. Doesn't matter if they're hood or hillbilly. It just can't be given to them. Sure, some have it easier than others and have people to bail them out when they screw up; but it all comes down to making a personal choice. It's difficult to choose to work hard when you can be comfortable not working... Unfortunately, eldest is doing his best to prove that. Time to grow up!

The thing they have going for them is someone behind them pushing and encouraging them to head in the right direction. Your 20 year old sounds exactly like me 8 years ago (yes I am only 27). College kicked my but, highschool was a cake walk for me and when I walked into college I wasn't ready for the work. Dropped out after the first semester, second try I made it through the first semester and then dropped out again after the second. Took me a while to figure it out, with a lot of second guessing myself with what I wanted to do. But back to work I went, the first year was tough, every morning I felt like I had to drag myself out of bed, forcing myself to go to work, but eventually it got easier. Of course it didn't help that at the time I was working 60+hrs a week. But as it got easier I signed up for a pipe-fitting apprenticeship and eventually got my ticket. About that same time they made me shop foreman and I moved up from there, eventually to General Foreman where I remain today.

If I went back 10 years I would never guess that I would be where I am today, I have a loving fiance and family, a house, a nice vehicle, and all the motorized toys and tools in the garage I could want. I guess what I am trying to get at is guide them, but don't force them to do anything, they will figure it out, but be there to be the person they can bounce ideas off of and help with the life skills that aren't taught in school. One of the best things my parents did for me is refuse to buy me anything not essential to life or school, I bought my first vehicle, first snowmobile, first everything, it taught me the value of money, that if I wanted something hard work could earn it. It was also at that point that I learned sometimes lessons cost money, and the best ones cost lots, so to be responsible with the money you had, as it would only go so far.

 

[NickW]

Sorry begreen... groan/therapy session over.

We need to become a world society of contributors, not recipients - all of us. We need our governments to serve and protect us fairly and honestly. We need to pay our taxes so they can do that. Learn a skill that will help yourself and others. YouTube videos of you playing and commenting on video games is NOT a skill. Everybody should be taxed the same way. Rich folks say the top 1% pay 99% of total taxes collected, poor folks say that's because the rich have 99.9% of the wealth. Loopholes and backdoors need to be closed. We, in this country, have the right to the pursuit of happiness. We do not have the right to have happiness given to us nor should we expect it, because that is impossible.

But can we ever get the whole country much less the whole world to view things this way, or will we forever be at the mercy of those who will trample anyone to get ahead; here and abroad? History shows what is the likely answer... All we can do as individuals is keep trying to do what is right. Unfortunately, every election in the US brings candidates that force a choice of the lesser of 2 evils...

 

[Seasoned Oak]

Not all of the dregs in your area are imports. There are plenty of home grown ones.

There are, and plenty of high school dropouts. People tend to spoil their kids, dont want them to work as hard as they did ,not with good result. The whole east side of town is where the imports are clustered . Like south central LA. Some good kids mixed in ,they tend to migrate out to the larger cities. My oldest kids still live close.all with good jobs and lots of ambition, 2 more to go. Economy here is what you make it.

 

[AlbergSteve]

The question is, what can we do better when we restart the machine?

I'm not optimistic.

 

[Seasoned Oak]

The recipe for success has always been the same and it works everywhere , hard work ,persistance, sometimes long hours. After Corona will be no exception, except we will be deeper in debt. So what do you guys think of the Corona stimulus bill being debated?

 

[begreen]

The recipe for success has always been the same and it works everywhere , hard work ,persistance, sometimes long hours. After Corona will be no exception, except we will be deeper in debt. So what do you guys think of the Corona stimulus bill being debated?

I haven't read the whole bill, but my first thought is that the priority should be people, not corporations. Definitely no bailouts for businesses that avoid taxes, like cruise lines with their boats registered in foreign ports.

 

[SpaceBus]

This thread seems less about the economy and more about - the kids today are blah blah blah. Heard that same line 50 years ago in a Simon and Garfunkel song "Save the life of my child". I appreciate that some folks here are self-made and have put in a lot hard work, but the scene today is not like what it was for the enterprising young man or woman in the 1970s. And the cold stop that Corvid-19 has introduced is going to reset the whole equation. The question is, what can we do better when we restart the machine?

This is how I feel as well. I wish I could have been born in the 40's or 60's, what a great time to be a working aged man (except for the Vietnam War). The same system that worked post war is not going to work post Corona.

 

[SpaceBus]

There are, and plenty of high school dropouts. People tend to spoil their kids, dont want them to work as hard as they did ,not with good result. The whole east side of town is where the imports are clustered . Like south central LA. Some good kids mixed in ,they tend to migrate out to the larger cities. My oldest kids still live close.all with good jobs and lots of ambition, 2 more to go. Economy here is what you make it.

What if both of your parents are addicts, one in prison, your extended family are also addicts and criminals, and the police in your city target your neighborhood (because of the mentioned drug issues). How is that any environment to grow up in? Can you blame kids for becoming criminals when they are surrounded by crime? Teach a man to fish, feed him for a lifetime, that's what you did for your kids. The current system keeps those at the bottom chained to the bottom, giving a man just one fish.

 

[Grizzerbear]

I think a lot of our problems are driven by a society with no morals or values. I agree with begreen on not bailing out corporations. What happened when we bailed out gm. Now trucks cost what you can pay for a decent house here. My story is a lot like abmax24....I went to welding school during the last recession and made out alright. The cost to go to college is absolutely ridiculous but a foreigner.....of any creed, not being racist.... can get accepted at a discount. I see it all the time at msu while I did a job there. There isnt enough jobs for the available workforce in america because we allowed them to be shipped out years ago. Many problems here in america.

 

[festerw]

The systemic problem in place is that it's often easier to live while using subsidized housing/food/health benefits and working part time.

In the current system a lot of folks that jump to full time end up losing a lot of that help, it's almost an all or nothing prospect at the moment instead of a tiered system to help get people into better paying jobs.

In the end the larger issue is the wages for EVERYONE need to increase. Yes "burger flippers" deserve $15, but that doesn't mean everyone else's pay shouldn't increase also.

We've let large corporations dictate the rules and lead us to this situation, it's clear that "trickle down" doesn't work and after 30 years that it never will.

 

[NickW]

What if both of your parents are addicts, one in prison, your extended family are also addicts and criminals, and the police in your city target your neighborhood (because of the mentioned drug issues). How is that any environment to grow up in? Can you blame kids for becoming criminals when they are surrounded by crime? Teach a man to fish, feed him for a lifetime, that's what you did for your kids. The current system keeps those at the bottom chained to the bottom, giving a man just one fish.

It's a terrible environment to grow up in! I, you and the government are not the ones to blame for the choices your parents made. We also are not to blame that your parents taught you to blame everyone else for your problems instead of taking personal responsibility. The rights and freedom we have includes the right to screw yourself up and unfortunately your kids too. If anyone steps in all that is heard is how rights are being trampled. How can a society help the ones "at the bottom" (children) without infringing on the rights of others helping keep them there (the P.O.S. parents)? It's a catch 22/vicious cycle that can only be broken by personal choice.

I think a lot of our problems are driven by a society with no morals or values. I agree with begreen on not bailing out corporations. What happened when we bailed out gm. Now trucks cost what you can pay for a decent house here. My story is a lot like abmax24....I went to welding school during the last recession and made out alright. The cost to go to college is absolutely ridiculous but a foreigner.....of any creed, not being racist.... can get accepted at a discount. I see it all the time at mau while I did a job there. There isnt enough jobs for the available workforce in america because we allowed them to be shipped out years ago. Many problems here in america.

Agreed there are few with morals and values, but disagree with some of the assessments. I read a few years ago when the average truck cost 35k or so that it cost 14k to produce. The rest was mostly benefits to union workers and some profit. Also, there are plenty of good jobs, not enough skilled people to fill them. The opportunities are out there. You have to WORK (arggghhhh! Four letter word!) to take advantage of them.

The systemic problem in place is that it's often easier to live while using subsidized housing/food/health benefits and working part time.

In the current system a lot of folks that jump to full time end up losing a lot of that help, it's almost an all or nothing prospect at the moment instead of a tiered system to help get people into better paying jobs.

In the end the larger issue is the wages for EVERYONE need to increase. Yes "burger flippers" deserve $15, but that doesn't mean everyone else's pay shouldn't increase also.

We've let large corporations dictate the rules and lead us to this situation, it's clear that "trickle down" doesn't work and after 30 years that it never will.

Agree with a better balance tier system. Still disagree with a burger flipper making $15/hr... are you going to pay the corresponding increase in the cost of a Big Mac or Whopper? Entry level job = entry level pay, not intended to be a career... Everyone's pay increasing will only result in everyone's costs going up - rampant inflation.

 

[Seasoned Oak]

I haven't read the whole bill, but my first thought is that the priority should be people, not corporations. Definitely no bailouts for businesses that avoid taxes, like cruise lines with their boats registered in foreign ports.

Plus 100 on that. The whole point of foreign registration is to AVOID us taxes. Other than to convert some of these temporarily into hospital ships the US should, let LIBERIA handle any bailouts.

 

[Seasoned Oak]

It's a catch 22/vicious cycle that can only be broken by personal choice.

I agree. The fundementals are always the same. I wont bore everyone with the details of my childhood but id wager no one here had it worse or started with so little. That doesnt mean i had to continue that cycle. All my siblings rose above it as well. When you grow up with nothing, you realize the only helping hands are at the end of your arms.

 

[Grizzerbear]

Everyone's pay increasing will only result in everyone's costs going up - rampant inflation.

I agree their. We are seeing this here in missouri after it was voted to raise minimum wage.....which was never intended to be a living wage in the first place. Basically everyone that has a skilled trade just took a paycut.

Agreed there are few with morals and values, but disagree with some of the assessments. I read a few years ago when the average truck cost 35k or so that it cost 14k to produce. The rest was mostly benefits to union workers and some profit. Also, there are plenty of good jobs, not enough skilled people to fill them. The opportunities are out there. You have to WORK (arggghhhh! Four letter word!) to take advantage of them.

At 35k they were too damn expensive......especially for a item that everyone must have....and I drive 30 miles to nearest city to work.....5 of them all gravel so a cheapo fiesta wont quite cut it. And I can't see that there are plenty of jobs....maybe in the big cities or where you are at but here....I would have to travel fifty miles for a job that paid over 15 an hour. Two empty factories here in town that used to employ over 200 people but now they are over seas. And no amount of work ethic is going to change that....luckily when I was a younger man I saved my cash and paid my house and land off so I dont require much. I agree with space bus as well. My mother has owned a daycare for over thirty years. She gets a lot of children that have been taken away from their parents by the state for some of the most awful reasons...sexual abuse, drugs , you name it. Born into life with mountains to hurdle.

 

[Seasoned Oak]

Agree with a better balance tier system. Still disagree with a burger flipper making $15/hr... are you going to pay the corresponding increase in the cost of a Big Mac or Whopper? Entry level job = entry level pay, not intended to be a career... Everyone's pay increasing will only result in everyone's costs going up - rampant inflation.

Minimum wage doubles ,Rent doubles ,utilities double, food doubles. Were is the improvement ,only result is higher taxes as income is pushed into higher tax brackets. A slower COL increase is more sustainable. Starting teacher salary in my area is $15 hr. Start paying minimum wage to starting teachers and see what happens.

 

[Seasoned Oak]

What if both of your parents are addicts, one in prison, your extended family are also addicts and criminals, and the police in your city target your neighborhood (because of the mentioned drug issues).

My nephew fits that exact description. (except for the extended family part) Abusive Mother, father in prison. Grew up under terrible conditions. Today he is a union plumber making over 100k a yr. All about personal choices.

 

[NickW]

Around here McD, Panda Express, Walmart, etc all start at at least $11. Anyone who will work and get up early can have at least $15 to start any number of places... People with skills start around $20.

 

[festerw]

Minimum wage doubles ,Rent doubles ,utilities double, food doubles. Were is the improvement ,only result is higher taxes as income is pushed into higher tax brackets. A slower COL increase is more sustainable. Starting teacher salary in my area is $15 hr. Start paying minimum wage to starting teachers and see what happens.

There's a bunch but I'll pick on you

The issue is cost of everything has gone up regardless of the wage. The way this works (or should) is you update the wage to what it currently should be (we'll say $15) then add in COL every year so we don't end up back where we currently are. Does it need to jump that high right away? Absolutely not but step it up in a clearly defined pattern lets say $1/hr plus COL every year until we hit $15 then COL increases every year.

So your teacher making $15/hour says "Why should I teach when I can get a job as a fast food worker making the same?"
The school then has an option keep paying $15 or realize they're offering too little for the position (they are, regardless of the current minimum). This would happen across the board to all jobs thereby increasing the pay for everyone, that whole rising tide deal.

Some things will go up in price, some won't, but the end result is a stronger economy when the people have more money to spend. There also needs to be a regulation in place for the CEO vs employee pay disparity in 1978 it was 30:1 in 2017 it was 270:1 so employees have seen an 11% increase in pay while CEOs have seen 932%.

Clearly at this point we're not going to make any headway by continuing on the same path trying the same things and some major changes need to happen so we're not back in the same situation in the future

 

[Seasoned Oak]

So your teacher making $15/hour says "Why should I teach when I can get a job as a fast food worker making the same?"
The school then has an option keep paying $15 or realize they're offering too little for the position (they are, regardless of the current minimum). This would happen across the board to all jobs thereby increasing the pay for everyone, that whole rising tide deal.

Sounds easy but most of the residents here are retired on SS. So we would need a big jump in SS checks to cover the much higher school taxes and overall wage increases that would result. Double my SS check and im all in. As i said in my post COL increases over time make sense. If the no skilled and low skilled group are given 100% pay raise everyone else will follow suit with a laundry list of demands. Plus there is a glut of no skills high school dropouts to (hopefully) employ. The law of supply and demand does have some effect.

 

[NickW]

I will agree with fester about the CEO vs employee disparity though... are we going to cap the ridiculous athlete contracts too?

 

[Sodbuster]

Athletes, CEO's, Talk Show Hosts. News Anchors, all make ridiculous amounts of money each year, but as long as the stadiums are full, and the show has high ratings, they'll continue to get paid that much. I read somewhere that it costs a family of 4 about $450 to attend a NFL game. That's crazy money for me, but the stadiums are full, so the owners get (or stay) rich, and so do the players. They are worth what someone is willing to pay them, wages cannot be arbitrarily set, the market will sort it out.

 

[festerw]

I'm on board tying it to other employees. No reason anyone in any organization should be make more in an day or week than most of the employees make in a year.

Look at Bloomberg, dude can blow a billion on a 2 month presidential run like a normal person is renting a hotel room.

Reality is our country is leveraged to the hilt and we're at the breaking point of becoming a 3rd world country with 1st world tendencies. If you want to have a fun time go back and look at personal/corporate tax rates, inflation, minimum wage, and corporate profits from 1950-on. The system has been rigged against the middle class for a long time.