The California Power Mess

[peakbagger]

Not sure if folks are keeping up with what is going on with the grid in California in the last week. Rolling blackouts due to inadequate power availability is not a good thing. I guess every major change has to have the guinea pigs and looks like the CA grid is the guinea pig for a grid weighed towards heavy use of renewables. Europe has gotten close but they luckily are connected to very large pumped storage capacity in the Nordic countries plus a block in Scotland. They can charge up the pumped storage during the day and pull out at night. Unfornately the western US does not have much pumped storage. The hydro plants out west do have pond level to work from but environmental regulations seriously limits significant draw downs.

The grid operator had been warning of inadequate reserves when large baseload fossil plants shut down but politically it was better to go green. As predicted the state is running into the head of the "Duck Curve" where daytime renewables are tapering off while demand is still high in the late day. Grid batteries are being built and added to the grid but they are just a drop in the bucket to what is needed to keep supply during record heat.

Reportedly many solar firms including Tesla were already going gangbusters selling hybrid solar systems with batteries to supply the remote areas impacted by PGE blackout policy for wildfire prevention. Of course the standard Tesla contract allows the ability to dispatch the battery power to the grid when power prices are high. This means someone depending on the battery to ride through a black out may start out with no charge. This happened in VT on customers with Tesla batteries during bad weather a year or so ago. Tesla drained the batteries to help reinforce the grid and then the grid went down. I think it happened during the night so the customers where SOL despite having a battery.

I expect the search is already on for a scapegoat. A similar issue was engineered by Enron years ago where they caused the loss of capacity and then profited by selling back at elevated prices into the grid. There were controls put in place to prevent that manipulation but it made great cover for other sins on the gird

Its going to be interesting to see what comes out of this. The normal approach is a bunch of peakers with large fuel oil tanks but that obviously has a limit due to fuel storage capacity. The current approach is to put batteries at peaker locations so that the batteries handle short term blips prior to firing off the peakers. This reduces the emissions and wear and tear on the peakers. In this case its not short term blip but a several hour event. Its probably a good place for flow batteries but that technology seems to be still exhibiting growing pains.

Reportedly once the blackout started, a combination of voluntary load shedding by large users like the US military and emergency drawdowns at hydro dams plus a change in the weather reduced the extent of the blackouts.

 

[SidecarFlip]

None of the peakers units around here are oil fired, they are all NG. Never seen an oil fired unit actually. Didn't know they even existed.

Secondly, getting away from coal fired base load plants and nuclear base load pl;ants and going to renewable energy will eventually bite everyone because one the dependence on the grid is growing but the grid itself is lacking upkeep and upgrades and most importantly, renewable energy is not dependable. if the wind don't blow, wind turbines don't make power and if the sun don't shine, solar is worthless and non withstanding, solar is a net polluter, the elements used to make the panels come from major polluting countries (China), the panels degrade in output every year with a projected 20 year useful lifespan and finally, disposal of a solar 'farm' is all hazardous waste. I really dislike the term 'solar farm' It's not a farm at all, it's an industrial installation and takes viable farmland out of production.

 

[peakbagger]

The peakers I worked on in New England are dual fuel, natural gas and distillate fuel that is #1 or jet fuel. Large blocks of Gas has to be requested a day ahead unless someone wants to pay a major premium for firm gas so if there is a need to dispatch the peaker they usually start on oil and then if its long outage they do have the option to switch to gas. I also worked on a peaker in Delaware and that also was dual fuel for the same reasons. If turbine is set up for dual fuel gas is easy it the oil that is a PITA to tune. The new plants we built even had SCRs on them to reduce NOx the Delware one was an old timer and it was straight to atmosphere.

Your other statements are debatable but feel free to start multiple threads.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

Sounds like motivation for conservation.


Insulation, it's cheap and will cut down on summer cooling and winter heating. Where else is the average house going to significantly cut energy usage? Lightbulbs? *rolls eyes* I haven't worried about lights being a serious draw of power since CFLs came out. LEDs are even better. Refrigerators use a lot of power too.

 

[brenndatomu]

These power grid issue are going to turn into a real chit show IMO...the greenies keep pushing everything to electric and we barely have the grid to run what's here now...and its aging...and we keep shutting down more and more base load plants...yup, I see a storm a brewing.

Refrigerators use a lot of power too.

Yup, anything with a motor...motors are still responsible for the better part of the grid load...when someone figures out how to do with motors what has been done with lighting...then we will have something!

 

[Highbeam]

Refrigerators use a lot of power too.

Meh, since the invention of the kill-a-watt gadget you can easily show that the modern refrigerator does not use a "lot" of power. Hardly anything really. Same as light bulbs and these alleged vampire loads from the wall warts. Heat pumps, dehumidifiers, water heating, ovens, clothes dryers, space heating, water pumping, hot tubs, those things use some power.

For the topic of the thread. I have my own peaking plant. It's a gasoline generator. If the power goes down a few times a year, and it does, then we crank up the genset. If I lived in CA then I would have an automatic standby genset and not worry about this at all.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

I think the only way CA is going to solve their power issue is to let the market dictate the price of the electricity. If you want to cool your house down to 68 in the summer, prepare to open up that wallet. To some, it'll be worth it. To others, it won't.

 

[SidecarFlip]

The peakers I worked on in New England are dual fuel, natural gas and distillate fuel that is #1 or jet fuel. Large blocks of Gas has to be requested a day ahead unless someone wants to pay a major premium for firm gas so if there is a need to dispatch the peaker they usually start on oil and then if its long outage they do have the option to switch to gas. I also worked on a peaker in Delaware and that also was dual fuel for the same reasons. If turbine is set up for dual fuel gas is easy it the oil that is a PITA to tune. The new plants we built even had SCRs on them to reduce NOx the Delware one was an old timer and it was straight to atmosphere.

Your other statements are debatable but feel free to start multiple threads.

Everything is debatable today. Just stating my position. If you agree, fine. If not fine too. What makes this country what it is, freedom to express your opinion. Least for now.

Your mileage may vary. I know what m y mileage is.

 

[ABMax24]

These power grid issue are going to turn into a real chit show IMO...the greenies keep pushing everything to electric and we barely have the grid to run what's here now...and its aging...and we keep shutting down more and more base load plants...yup, I see a storm a brewing.

Yup, anything with a motor...motors are still responsible for the better part of the grid load...when someone figures out how to do with motors what has been done with lighting...then we will have something!

Electric motors are very efficient, you'd be hard pressed to find an electric motor that operates under 80% efficiency. Incandescent lighting is closer to 5% efficient at turning electricity into light. I'd frankly be quite surprised if most LED bulbs can beat 80%, most manufacturers are over-volting the LEDs to produce more light with less hardware saving on manufacturing costs. The downside is they become less efficient and produce heat as a by-product, every LED in my house is warm to the touch when on meaning they all waste some energy.

 

[ABMax24]

There's also other factors at play in California. California seems to have issues building new natural gas peaker plants, and as such has to import a lot of electricity to make up the difference when renewable generation wanes. Some of this electricity comes from British Columbia here in Canada. The problem with that is there's becoming less extra to buy, BC's population and consumption continue to grow and as such are using more of their excess electricity every year. BC generates the lion's share of their electricity from hydro-power, the last hydro-electric dam to be built in BC was built in 1984, with the exception of Site C which should be completed in 2024. Site C was first proposed in 1981 and it took until 2015 for approval to be granted and construction to begin. Meaning new demand is far outpacing new supply there.

It's pretty easy to see California is at the point where changes are needed. Either more renewable energy with storage needs to be built, or they need to back peddle on their carbon emission goals and build natural gas peaker plants, or revisit the idea of nuclear power.

I really like some of the technology that has California come up with, Rule 21 solar inverters are one of those things. It's pretty cool that a homeowners solar system can be used to help maintain grid stability. But there are also a lot of example of what not to do, and what doesn't work.

As said above though time of use billing would help this, if energy users paid more for energy at peak times there would be incentive to reduce demand. If the same was applied to generation there would also be incentives for producers/homeowners to generate/sell more renewable energy at these times, particularly if they owned a grid-dispatchable battery.

 

[SidecarFlip]

Will all be screwed when China says no more LED's.

 

[SidecarFlip]

I'd like someone to tell me what becomes of the solar panels in 20 years when they are no longer producing useable power?

 

[ABMax24]

Why is it people only care about the end of life disposal of renewable energy infrastructure?

Did we somehow solve the problem of the millions of tons of other waste we produce and I missed it?

FYI almost every solar panel is warrantied to 25 years, mine are guaranteed to produce 80% of the energy they do today in 25 years, and probably could produce for another 25 years after that.

But what does this have to do with the grid stability in California?

 

[peakbagger]

Here is fairly good article on how much battery capacity is needed for green grid in CA

California Doomed to Frequent Blackout Risk by Battery Shortage

(Bloomberg) -- As the threat of blackouts continues to plague California, officials are pointing to battery storage as a key to preventing future power shortfalls. But the Golden State is going to need a lot more batteries to weather the next climate-driven crisis—let alone to achieve its goal...

www.yahoo.com

BTW, About 20 years ago I had read that many CA homes had minimal or no insulation. Western electric power rates were cheap compared to the east coast and insulation added cost and time to new homes so it wasnt a priority. I believe that CA now has fairly aggressive energy standards for a new home but there is no doubt a large block of older housing that probably are saddled with high power demand. When temps get as high as they did in CA in the last week AC is really not optional. Swamp coolers can help but they need water to run and much of CA is chronically short of water.

 

[CaptSpiff]

It's pretty easy to see California is at the point where changes are needed. Either more renewable energy with storage needs to be built, or they need to back peddle on their carbon emission goals and build natural gas peaker plants, or revisit the idea of nuclear power.

Wow, you just described NYS's future.
Our governor touts himself as "Super Green" and has promoted mega offshore wind farms as our energy future.
But shoots himself in the foot by promoting the early "forced" retirements of the two Indian Point nuclear units (zero emission and 1000 Mw each), then is forced to "fast track" two giant Natural Gas combined cycle plants (750 and 1000 Mw) in down state area. I think one of his staff even was indicted on some permitting shenanigans.
Loose 2000 Mw of clean energy production, replace with 1750 Mw of of fossil pollution in the same location. Brilliant!

 

[begreen]

I'd like someone to tell me what becomes of the solar panels in 20 years when they are no longer producing useable power?

That's a false assumption. At 20 yrs the panels may not be producing nameplate output, but they can still be putting out substantial power. See Peakbagger's separate post on this topic.

20 year life on Solar Panels fallacy

Rather than derailing another thread I thought it was worth starting a thread on common fallacy with respect the life of solar panels. This gets lot of attention in the media and every few years there are solar panel crisis articles designed to pull in eyeballs on the web. The reality is that...

www.hearth.com

 

[SidecarFlip]

From what I see, your governor is an idiot and a corrupt one at that.

 

[SidecarFlip]

That's a false assumption. At 20 yrs the panels may not be producing nameplate output, but they can still be putting out substantial power. See Peakbagger's separate post on this topic.

20 year life on Solar Panels fallacy

Rather than derailing another thread I thought it was worth starting a thread on common fallacy with respect the life of solar panels. This gets lot of attention in the media and every few years there are solar panel crisis articles designed to pull in eyeballs on the web. The reality is that...

www.hearth.com

Could be. Solar will never be in my equation for energy anyway. Like I said, could be but then I don't make book on a person's opinion of something. We all have opinions. I prefer sound assumptions based on proven facts.

I do know that here, the current push is for mega solar 'farms'. They aren't farms at all but industrial installations. Farms grow food and raise domesticated meat for human consumption. All solar 'farms' do is take valuable farmland out of production and line the landowners pockets with land rent payments. Me, I'd rather have food on my plate versus alternative energy.

I'm 100% against taking farmland out of production to foist alternative energy schemes.

 

[SidecarFlip]

Additionally, from what I observe, people in California brought most of their grief on themselves.

 

[brenndatomu]

I do know that here, the current push is for mega solar 'farms'. They aren't farms at all but industrial installations. Farms grow food and raise domesticated meat for human consumption. All solar 'farms' do is take valuable farmland out of production and line the landowners pockets with land rent payments. Me, I'd rather have food on my plate versus alternative energy.

My employer had a 15 acre solar farm installed a couple years ago (formerly a producing hay field)...now they have to pay to have the panels mowed around...that's expensive, so I suggested letting a local sheep farmer graze his sheep in there over the summer (the whole farm is enclosed by chainlink fence) That was shot down (dunno why) so they are still paying some landscaper to brush hog/weedeat the whole place several times per year.

 

[begreen]

Funny coincidence. Last night I watched a movie that had a section on Agrivoltaics. Farming under solar panels. They showed a large operation on Reunion Island. Plants do well with a bit of shade in hot climates.

Exclusive. Solar Plants Combined With Agriculture On Reunion Island

NO WEB/NO APPS - Exclusive. Solar power plants Bardzour and Les Cedres pictured in October 2017 on Reunion Island. French company Akuo Energy is specialized in the worldwide production of sustainable energy such as solar, wind, biomass and hydraulic. On Reunion Island, Akuo has developed two...

energycentral.com

There are several examples of agrivoltaics at work. Here are a few.

Solar Panels Pair Surprisingly Well With Tomatoes, Peppers and Pollinators

In 'agrivoltaics,' crops and solar panels not only share land and sunlight, but also help each other function more efficiently.

www.treehugger.com

Farming under solar panels saves water and creates energy

Growing crops under the shade of solar panels, also called agrivoltaics, could boost food production, use less water, and make solar panels more efficient.

www.futurity.org

Energy and food together: Under solar panels, crops thrive

Beneath some solar arrays, pollinator-friendly plants, fruits, vegetables and forage are cropping up in place of turfgrass or gravel.

www.pri.org

 

[SpaceBus]

Is there any profitable farm land being converted into solar farms? If anything only more crop land and livestock pasture is being created.

I would also like to see the "proven facts" that solar is a net increase in carbon.

 

[SidecarFlip]

Funny coincidence. Last night I watched a movie that had a section on Agrivoltaics. Farming under solar panels. They showed a large operation on Reunion Island. Plants do well with a bit of shade in hot climates.

Exclusive. Solar Plants Combined With Agriculture On Reunion Island

NO WEB/NO APPS - Exclusive. Solar power plants Bardzour and Les Cedres pictured in October 2017 on Reunion Island. French company Akuo Energy is specialized in the worldwide production of sustainable energy such as solar, wind, biomass and hydraulic. On Reunion Island, Akuo has developed two...

energycentral.com

There are several examples of agrivoltaics at work. Here are a few.

Solar Panels Pair Surprisingly Well With Tomatoes, Peppers and Pollinators

In 'agrivoltaics,' crops and solar panels not only share land and sunlight, but also help each other function more efficiently.

www.treehugger.com

Farming under solar panels saves water and creates energy

Growing crops under the shade of solar panels, also called agrivoltaics, could boost food production, use less water, and make solar panels more efficient.

www.futurity.org

Energy and food together: Under solar panels, crops thrive

Beneath some solar arrays, pollinator-friendly plants, fruits, vegetables and forage are cropping up in place of turfgrass or gravel.

www.pri.org

Might work with a truck farm, won't work with row cropping. No ag tractor will fit in there and if they do, I'd like to see it. Corn, wheat and soybeans are staples for our economy. Not peppers and tomatoes. The only thing that sort of farming does is increase migrant labor in this country, nothing more.

Being a farmer and landowner, I'm totally against conversion of good farm ground to solar.

 

[SidecarFlip]

Is there any profitable farm land being converted into solar farms? If anything only more crop land and livestock pasture is being created.

I would also like to see the "proven facts" that solar is a net increase in carbon.

Trying here (Deerfield, Michigan) but meeting stiff opposition, me included. Some of the best farmland in south east Michigan is right here and at least on my ground it's not gonna happen. Sure, 800 bucks a year per acre is enticing but loosing productive farmland to solar just isn't worth it for me. Besides, some of the field corn I grow goes into my corn burned and heats my home in the winter.....

The township is looking at the tax generated to support it but I know what will transpire most likely. The solar company will apply for a tax abatement and most likely get it and then the township gets zip. Either that or the solar company will divest itself from the project and then the court will decide what an equitable rent amount is. The court will ask what the going rate per acre rent is (it's between 200 and 250 an acre presently and the court will set it at that rate and the landholder looses.

Finally, the proposed solar 'farm' here, the solar company has specifically stated that the landholders must pay for the decomissioning of the arrays on their land. Always keep in mind that decommissioned solar panels are HAZARDOUS WASTE and must be disposed of in an approved landfill so, it's not just the take them to any old landfill, you pay dearly to dispose of them and then there is all the substructure as well.

At my age, it really don't matter as I won't be here to deal with it but, I consider myself a steward of the land as as such, I will not defile that with solar panels.

Then there is the manufacture of the panels and what goes into them and the pollution that causes. I guess people think that solar panels are made by the tooth fairy.. Sort of like the electric car batteries. They contain LITHIUM and last time I checked, lithium was a hazardous substance. Same deal with panels, they contain hazardous substances and those substances don't come from here, they come from there and over there, they don't give a hoot about pollution or human condition, only profit.

I might be 70 but I don't have my head in the sand.

Don't give a hoot about net carbon, never have and don't care. I hate Tier 4 mandates on diesel engines., in fact so much that none of my tractors are Tier 4 and I won't buy one or at least until the controls are actually perfected to where the consumer (me) isn't playing surrogate to the builders, testing their emissions systems. There are 5 diesel powered units on this farm and none are emissions compliant and never will be. What I find interesting is, the value of those machines is steadily climbing because people are wising up and avoiding Tier 4 diesels if possible.

Of course if you live in suburbia or in an urban environment all that concerns you is that you have heat or light and that is all well and good but, keep in mind that in the end you'll pay for that in greater and greater amounts as the progression to solar and alternative fuels increase and food become less and less available.

Me, not worried about it. I won't be here to reap the rewards of stupidity.

 

[ben94122]

Farms grow food and raise domesticated meat for human consumption. All solar 'farms' do is take valuable farmland out of production and line the landowners pockets with land rent payments. Me, I'd rather have food on my plate versus alternative energy.

I don't understand this logic when 40% of US corn is used to make ethanol:

Alternative Fuels Data Center: Maps and Data - U.S. Corn Production and Portion Used for Fuel Ethanol