Ok, I don’t know what I need

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DaniWantsHeat

New Member
Oct 8, 2021
13
Nys
I’ve been reading posts on Hearth for a few years now. Bought a 1969 raised ranch 8 years ago that had *very* little insulation. 7 oil fill ups the first year (at $4 a gallon). Insulated most of the house, replaced baseboard heat with radiant, put a pellet stove in the basement. Went down to 3 oil fill ups a year, but also going through 3 tons of pellets. We considered replacing the pellet stove with a gas stove to eliminate the weekly maintenance but gas costs more than pellets. Took down some dead ash trees and are now looking at keeping the pellet stove in the basement but running it on 1 (instead of 3 on cold days — we’re in Nys, zone 6b, which can get pretty cold in the winter), and putting a wood burning insert in the fireplace.

Looking for an insert is not as easy as I’d thought! Every time I think I narrow it down, there seems to be some reason it wouldn’t be ideal. I think I DON’T want a catalytic converter, and DO want one with a quiet fan. The upstairs (raised ranch, basement and first floor) is about 1200sf and need one that can realistically burn all night, with a nice viewing glass. We often get power failures but do have a generator, although it’s really difficult to pull out and set up, especially as power outages usually occur when the weather is terrible. I’ve looked at quadrafire (burns a lot of wood/doesn’t last all night), Osborn (noisy fan), blaze king (catalytic) Jotul (stopped making inserts), and handful/dozen others but I’m not sure they’re durability. At least one seemed to lose heat once the trim was put on. Sorry I’m not specific, this is a new area for me and frankly I’m overwhelmed. If there’s one you can recommend and tell me why, I’d be grateful
 
You will be looking at inserts in the ~2 cu ft range. Quad inserts are pretty conventional. Remember that many users blame their stoves when the real issues are with the wood, the installation, or the operator.
Are Pacific Energy, IronStrike or Regency inserts sold in your area? Another catalytic to consider would be Kuma.
 
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First thought is what’s in the basement? Is it insulated? finished? If not I’d be moving the pellet upstairs.

You will be buying sawdust bricks this winter unless you stacked firewood a year or two ago. Might as well buy pellets this winter. It’s a big purchase so you are right to think it through.

If I had to get a nice non cat insert now it would be a Pacific energy. I didn’t get a nice one I got the cheapest I could find a Drolet 1800i (value brand of SBI who makes the Osborn line. Some internals are almost identical). I shopped for 2 years. Almost convinced myself that a should get a catalytic Blaze king to get the 26% tax credit on the whole install. ( are you aware of that for Inserts or stoves with HHV 75% and up. They are almost all catalytic).

Figure a new insert installed by a pro will start at around $4000 probably closer to 5 or 6. That’s a lot of pellets. And a decent portable generator. I Did my DIY with insulated liner for $2000 including tax. Blowers make noise you aren’t required to use them. (At least in the manuals I’ve read).

Just some thoughts
 
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You will be looking at inserts in the ~2 cu ft range. Quad inserts are pretty conventional. Remember that many users blame their stoves when the real issues are with the wood, the installation, or the operator.
Are Pacific Energy, IronStrike or Regency inserts sold in your area? Another catalytic to consider would be Kuma.
Oh no doubt! If there’s a stove that is prone to user error, I’d rather avoid it. This will be our first wood insert, thankfully hubby is mechanically inclined. If it’s not a kitchenaid, I’m your Miss User Error! I believe Regency is available in my area. So an insert will heat just as well without a blower?
Thank you!
 
Flush inserts are pretty dependent on the blower to convect the heat. Inserts that project out 4-6" onto the hearth will do a better job of heating in a power outage. If you want simple, stay with a non-cat insert. In the Regency line that would be the i2450. In Pacific Energy it would be their Super insert. Both have fairly quiet blowers.
 
First thought is what’s in the basement? Is it insulated? finished? If not I’d be moving the pellet upstairs.

You will be buying sawdust bricks this winter unless you stacked firewood a year or two ago. Might as well buy pellets this winter. It’s a big purchase so you are right to think it through.

If I had to get a nice non cat insert now it would be a Pacific energy. I didn’t get a nice one I got the cheapest I could find a Drolet 1800i (value brand of SBI who makes the Osborn line. Some internals are almost identical). I shopped for 2 years. Almost convinced myself that a should get a catalytic Blaze king to get the 26% tax credit on the whole install. ( are you aware of that for Inserts or stoves with HHV 75% and up. They are almost all catalytic).

Figure a new insert installed by a pro will start at around $4000 probably closer to 5 or 6. That’s a lot of pellets. And a decent portable generator. I Did my DIY with insulated liner for $2000 including tax. Blowers make noise you aren’t required to use them. (At least in the manuals I’ve read).

Just some thoughts
Yes, replaced the 1970s single pane windows with energy efficient one and spray foamed (most of) the basement. The pellet stove is one of those standalone, direct vent ones, it wouldn’t work upstairs (at least not if we wanted to still have a living room). If we had done more research, there would have been a wood burner down there instead. Pellet stoves are a lot of maintenance, and depending on the pellets, we need to clean it at least once a week, sometimes every 3-4 days.

I’m aware of the tax rebate. Catalytic converters make me nervous, especially if they’re prone to breaking or stop working when it’s 4 degrees outside.

We did cut down a large tree last year, it’s in big logs but was planning on using that to start. Is 1 (1.5) year old wood aged enough?

I started to look at Pacific Energy but was overwhelmed by that point, I’ll take another look. Maybe between them and regency, I can pick one.

Thanks for your input!
 
Flush inserts are pretty dependent on the blower to convect the heat. Inserts that project out 4-6" onto the hearth will do a better job of heating in a power outage. If you want simple, stay with a non-cat insert. In the Regency line that would be the i2450. In Pacific Energy it would be their Super insert. Both have fairly quiet blowers.
I have to say, that regency model looks perfect. Thank you so much! Sending specs to hubby
 
We did cut down a large tree last year, it’s in big logs but was planning on using that to start. Is 1 (1.5) year old wood aged enough?
Firewood does not really start seasoning in log form unless the tree was standing dead to start with. Once the rounds are split and stacked they start drying out much faster. So, if this is oak or maple, the wood is probably not ready to burn. Almost all wood sold at this point is also not fully seasoned.
 
You didn't mention if you added attic insulation. I'm in a 1978 poorly insulated raised ranch. After several years of high bills and air leaks, I went up into the attic and sealed off any air leak I could find (dirty insulation indicates air leaks) and then blew in about 15" of extra blown in insulation. It was like having a new house. I used to only get my main floor up to 64 degrees using the basement wood stove. Now I can blow myself out of the house at 72 on a good night. I wish I had looked at the attic sooner.
 
So an insert will heat just as well without a blower?
No but on most nights you don’t NEED maximum heat output. Watching a silent fire is very contemplative experience for me. It’s nice to be able to just shut it off and meditate on the flames. Blowers are quite useful. I have one for my stove and use it 50% of the time. 80% of that is on low.

My parents have a pellet stove. I don’t think they ever burned more and two tons a year. I consider pellet stove maintenance more than wood during the burning season but most of your wood stove “maintenance” is managing your wood supply. I just spent an hour today hauling some crumby cedar from a few houses away with my wheel barrow. 25-30 cu ft Once I split it. But it won’t split easy or really at all. Should have left it. City would not have taken the big stuff so i would have to drive by it 4 times a day for who knows how long. See where this is going;). All said. I prefer my wood stove to a pellet.

Catalytic converters in stoves don’t just suddenly die. They got a bad rap. but just dusting them with a paint brush at a regular interval is about all they need. that seem quite robust lasting 10,000 hours of active burn time. I was of the same mind set when I first started shopping a couple years ago. If I was in a situation where wood heat is all I had I would have a Blaze king. I’m not. I have a decent heatpump. So a hot fire works good for us.
 
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Catalytic converters in stoves don’t just suddenly die
With normal usage by the book they don't, but in the real world they do fail due to poisoning or thermal shock. This shouldn't happen if one reads the manual and can follow simple directions. How often does that happen these days? Unfortunately, some people just keep burning them with a bad cat and complain about the stove.
 
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What are your fireplace dimensions? Do you have a hearth in front of the fireplace that will provide clearance in front of the loading door? How tall is your existing chimney, how wide is the existing chimney?
I ask these questions because your install is going to revolve around existing conditions, for instance the chimney itself, if its to narrow for a standard 6" liner w/ insulation then there might be an extra cost to break out the flue tiles, is its to short then you may need to install the line to a anchor plate then add additional class a metal pipe at the top of the cap. If you dont have a hearth 16" in front of the stove then you may need to build one, depending on the type of insert you get you may need one thats just ember rated or you may need some insulation properties to protect the floor underneath.
 
You didn't mention if you added attic insulation. I'm in a 1978 poorly insulated raised ranch. After several years of high bills and air leaks, I went up into the attic and sealed off any air leak I could find (dirty insulation indicates air leaks) and then blew in about 15" of extra blown in insulation. It was like having a new house. I used to only get my main floor up to 64 degrees using the basement wood stove. Now I can blow myself out of the house at 72 on a good night. I wish I had looked at the attic sooner.
We actually did that after our first winter. What a difference! Changed 22 50-year old windows, much of the wall insulation, entire front entrance. Still more to do but those alone have made a huge difference. We used a lot of oil that first winter, it was very difficult to get this house warm!

The hearth is about 18” and is stone. We may be altering it (apparently needs more framing support). Honestly, I don’t understand plates or that part of it but hubby does. You want a cheesecake, I’m your gal. Measuring the chimney? It sticks out above the roof and is made of red brick and that’s about all I can tell you. Thankfully hubby understands that stuff so I’ll show him your questions and comments. We did have the chimney inspected though, it’s good to go for an insert. It will be great not to spend $1000+ on pellets.
 
Firewood does not really start seasoning in log form unless the tree was standing dead to start with. Once the rounds are split and stacked they start drying out much faster. So, if this is oak or maple, the wood is probably not ready to burn. Almost all wood sold at this point is also not fully seasoned.
BeGreen is correct. Independent studies done in the past show soft woods, once split are able to get below 20% with a full year of being stacked under cover. Hardwoods were pressed to get below the same 20%, once split and under cover for nearly 2 full years. Regardless of the stove brand or technology purchased, wood that is not properly seasoned can lead to accumulation either in the combustor, the chimney or go out into the environment.
 
We actually did that after our first winter. What a difference! Changed 22 50-year old windows, much of the wall insulation, entire front entrance. Still more to do but those alone have made a huge difference. We used a lot of oil that first winter, it was very difficult to get this house warm!

The hearth is about 18” and is stone. We may be altering it (apparently needs more framing support). Honestly, I don’t understand plates or that part of it but hubby does. You want a cheesecake, I’m your gal. Measuring the chimney? It sticks out above the roof and is made of red brick and that’s about all I can tell you. Thankfully hubby understands that stuff so I’ll show him your questions and comments. We did have the chimney inspected though, it’s good to go for an insert. It will be great not to spend $1000+ on pellets.
Feel free to post pictures here of your fireplace. This group is really keen on helping folks. As an example, one homeowner was looking for an insert and after several posts and arriving at a decision, posted a picture of the fireplace. Immediately one of these qualified parties pointed out the mantel was too close for required clearances for that particular model. Another time they pointed out an illegal electrical outlet that was behind the shroud of the insert.

Good group here to provide guidance, recommendations and technical advice. As a manufacturer, we also would encourage you to reach out the the company that makes the product you are considering to verify any information you have collected.

PS My wife makes a killer walnut pie...not so much the cheesecake!
 
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BeGreen is correct. Independent studies done in the past show soft woods, once split are able to get below 20% with a full year of being stacked under cover. Hardwoods were pressed to get below the same 20%, once split and under cover for nearly 2 full years. Regardless of the stove brand or technology purchased, wood that is not properly seasoned can lead to accumulation either in the combustor, the chimney or go out into the environment.
Good to know! The trees were dead when we cut them so we’ll have to wait another year to burn them.
 
Feel free to post pictures here of your fireplace. This group is really keen on helping folks. As an example, one homeowner was looking for an insert and after several posts and arriving at a decision, posted a picture of the fireplace. Immediately one of these qualified parties pointed out the mantel was too close for required clearances for that particular model. Another time they pointed out an illegal electrical outlet that was behind the shroud of the insert.

Good group here to provide guidance, recommendations and technical advice. As a manufacturer, we also would encourage you to reach out the the company that makes the product you are considering to verify any information you have collected.

PS My wife makes a killer walnut pie...not so much the cheesecake!
Yes, this forum is very helpful! I’ve popped in over the past several years, always impressed with the helpfulness and knowledge offered. Well, we looked at the Regency, got a quote including installation, $5300, which seems on par with what was estimated here. Afterwards, hubby looked at the drolet 1800i online, half the price of the regency (actually, less). I’m not sure how the drolet compares. A friend who has the regency is very pleased with the “mellow heat”. Drolet is half the price but not sure if it has that same mellow heat, although it seems to be very popular.
Fireplace is 36” wide, 32” high, 26” length in rear, 16.5” depth top, 23” depth bottom.
It will get a mantle, probably after insert is installed. Hopefully that will get it out of the 1970s….

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Which Regency was the quote for? Did it include an insulated liner?
Drolet and Century inserts are a value line from SBI, a large Canadian stove company. They are good stoves with the basics needed for good heating. Owner satisfaction is high. SBI also makes Osburn stoves which are a step up.
 
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Which Regency was the quote for? Did it include an insulated liner?
Drolet and Century inserts are a value line from SBI, a large Canadian stove company. They are good stoves with the basics needed for good heating. Owner satisfaction is high. SBI also makes Osburn stoves which are
SBI, although located in Canada, is US owned by the Empire Group...
 
Well, house is still being worked on but hubby rebuilt the hearth, inserted the stove and used it all winter. We went through maybe 3-4 cords but went from 3 oil fill ups to 2, and the house was toasty warm. We enjoyed having the fire going so much that there were times on mild days I opened the windows to justify throwing some logs on 😂. Just to recap, first year in this house, we had 7 oil fill ups (at $4/gal!). Changed the windows, insulated as much as we could (more reno’s to follow) and got it down to 3 fill ups but didn’t think we could get it lower — until we got this stove. I’m in love with this stove

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I’m aware of the tax rebate. Catalytic converters make me nervous, especially if they’re prone to breaking or stop working when it’s 4 degrees outside.
Not trying to convince you on a cat stove, but just to make sure you're not operating on the wrong assumptions, combustors don't suddenly die. They degrade slowly over time, and most end up replacing them out of curiosity or anxiety before anything else. The ceramic combustors (older tech) can suffer spalding or cracking due to thermal shock, something the newer steelcats will never do, although even this doesn't render them useless when left alone inside the stove.

The real disadvantages to the cat stove are:

1. Fewer choices of models, as there are fewer good cat stoves with a good track record.
2. Higher initial cost, there are no good budget-level cat stoves, they are a premium product.
3. Higher operating cost, due to replacing a combustor at every few years (eg. $200'ish, every 3rd year).

The advantages of a cat stove are:
1. Longer burn times and wider range of burn rates
2. More even heat output.

Catalytic converters in stoves don’t just suddenly die. They got a bad rap.
There were a lot of really terrible cat stove designs in the late 1980's and early 1990's, and bholler will tell you my old Jotul Firelight 12's might top that list. Combined with this, we had legacy operators who were used to running old smoke dragons on wet wood, getting frustrated while stuffing that same wet wood into their new catalytic stoves, which is never going to work no matter how good/bad the stove. I believe these two factors combined to generate the impression that cat stoves are somehow problematic. We all know that is generally not the case, today.

I will say that whenever you push a performance envelope on any technology, you'd better have everything optimized pretty well to avoid troubles. Those shooting for 30 and 40 hour burn times on thermostatic cat stoves are more likely to reveal trouble in their setup, than those running non-cats at 8-12 hour burn times. On the flip side, if you level the playing field and run both tech's at 5 hours per cubic foot rate, then you have to ask if you've really justified the higher cost of a cat stove. ;lol
 
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Not trying to convince you on a cat stove, but just to make sure you're not operating on the wrong assumptions, combustors don't suddenly die. They degrade slowly over time, and most end up replacing them out of curiosity or anxiety before anything else. The ceramic combustors (older tech) can suffer spalding or cracking due to thermal shock, something the newer steelcats will never do, although even this doesn't render them useless when left alone inside the stove.

The real disadvantages to the cat stove are:

1. Fewer choices of models, as there are fewer good cat stoves with a good track record.
2. Higher initial cost, there are no good budget-level cat stoves, they are a premium product.
3. Higher operating cost, due to replacing a combustor at every few years (eg. $200'ish, every 3rd year).

The advantages of a cat stove are:
1. Longer burn times and wider range of burn rates
2. More even heat output.


There were a lot of really terrible cat stove designs in the late 1980's and early 1990's, and bholler will tell you my old Jotul Firelight 12's might top that list. Combined with this, we had legacy operators who were used to running old smoke dragons on wet wood, getting frustrated while stuffing that same wet wood into their new catalytic stoves, which is never going to work no matter how good/bad the stove. I believe these two factors combined to generate the impression that cat stoves are somehow problematic. We all know that is generally not the case, today.

I will say that whenever you push a performance envelope on any technology, you'd better have everything optimized pretty well to avoid troubles. Those shooting for 30 and 40 hour burn times on thermostatic cat stoves are more likely to reveal trouble in their setup, than those running non-cats at 8-12 hour burn times. On the flip side, if you level the playing field and run both tech's at 5 hours per cubic foot rate, then you have to ask if you've really justified the higher cost of a cat stove. ;lol
I should remember this but I’m not sure. I think the regency Hampton is a non catalytic. Fully loaded for overnight, by morning there are coals left but stove is still warm. I’m guessing it burns more wood than a catalytic but we’re pretty happy with it. Nerve wracking buying your first wood stove! We bought a pellet stove about a year after buying this house (after living in apartments our whole lives) and depending on the pellets, it needs a lot of maintenance, aside from having to buy pellets throughout the winter as we don’t have storage for 3 or 4 tons. And my poor back, lugging those pellet bags around! Although the pellet stove has given off some nice heat, in retrospect, we should have put a gas stove down there.
 
A few things to keep in mind, not in direct response to what you're saying here, but definitely related:

A good (i.e. Blaze King or Woodstock) cat stove of nearly any size can achieve burn times nearly double that of the non-cat. But, you are not getting twice the heat. The amount of heat produced by a wood stove is simply BTU input (approx. dry weight of wood) x efficiency at that burn rate. Cat stoves usually have slightly higher efficiency, but not by enough to really make much difference in actual heat output for a given input.

Their advantage really comes down to just one thing, and that's flexibility in burn time. If your conditions are such that you want to eek out a small amount of heat over a very long period, only a cat stove can do it repeatedly and efficiently. But if your goal is to always run 6 - 10 hour loads, you'd just be wasting your time and limiting your choices, by looking only at cat stoves.

In terms of wood usage, many do claim to use less wood after switching from a non-cat to a cat. While I think some of these claims are exaggerated, there is some merit to it, in that the heat loss of your house and hearth is proportional to the difference between outside temperature and inside temperature, or outside temperature and flue temperature. If a temperature puts more heat onto the body of the flue pipe, or spikes a little more in temperature of the exterior wall behind it, there will be a little more heat loss there. But I think this must be a relatively small factor, not as extreme as some here have claimed.

Just so we're clear, both stoves, cat and non-cat, are doing the same thing. They burn wood, which produces exhaust. This exhaust still contains useable fuel particulate, and so it is pushed through a secondary burn system. In the cat stove, this is the catalytic combustor. In a non-cat, it is tubes or a baffle, typically into which is injected fresh air. These particulates "re-burn" in this secondary system, just the same in both stoves. The only difference is that, with aid of a catalyst, the cat stove can do this at a much lower temperature (500F versus 1100F). This is what enables the cat stove to achieve lower burn rates and longer burn times. But again, it's not making more heat, it's just releasing a similar BTU count over a longer period at a lower rate.

My advice would be to decide if you need burn times longer than ~5 hours per cubic foot of firebox. If you think you do, then start looking at cat stoves. But if you're typically looking for higher burn rates (big house, cold climate, high heat loss factor), then I wouldn't even consider one tech over the other, and I'd open the shopping to whatever I like, from either type. Things like cosmetics, radiant vs. convective, and local dealer support are going to be more important, unless you need to get long burn times out of a smaller stove, or are (like me) trying to do predictable 12 and 24 hour burn times to suit your work schedule.
 
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Oh, one last thing... don't stress too much about the decision. While installing a stove the first time is a big effort and investment, swapping them out is a total non-event. I went thru 5 stoves in 3 years (2012 - 2015), and there are other members here (bholler, webby3650) who tend to switch stoves every few years. You're not marrying the damn thing, and whatever you buy today will fetch a good used price, should you decide it was the wrong choice for you. All of your effort and expense in chimney pipe, wood shed, and other equipment all carries over, minus maybe a piece of connector pipe between the stove and chimney. No biggie.

If this is your first modern stove, you will learn so much more from using it just one year, than you could ever get from reading stove spec's and forum posts!
 
I should remember this but I’m not sure. I think the regency Hampton is a non catalytic. Fully loaded for overnight, by morning there are coals left but stove is still warm. I’m guessing it burns more wood than a catalytic but we’re pretty happy with it. Nerve wracking buying your first wood stove! We bought a pellet stove about a year after buying this house (after living in apartments our whole lives) and depending on the pellets, it needs a lot of maintenance, aside from having to buy pellets throughout the winter as we don’t have storage for 3 or 4 tons. And my poor back, lugging those pellet bags around! Although the pellet stove has given off some nice heat, in retrospect, we should have put a gas stove down there.
That looks like the Hi2450 which is a non-cat.