Yeah for me it wouldn't be a big deal to install a charger at all. All 3 of my out buildings have enough power to run one already. But many people don't have that at all
Is lack of on the road charging stations really the biggest obstacle?
- Thread starter EbS-P
- Start date
-
Active since 1995, Hearth.com is THE place on the internet for free information and advice about wood stoves, pellet stoves and other energy saving equipment.
We strive to provide opinions, articles, discussions and history related to Hearth Products and in a more general sense, energy issues.
We promote the EFFICIENT, RESPONSIBLE, CLEAN and SAFE use of all fuels, whether renewable or fossil.
NoGoodAtScreenNames
Feeling the Heat
In my recent car purchasing experience I tried really hard to sell myself on a BEV. It came down to wanting an AWD option, or at least not a rear drive (I know that’s a big debate in the EV world). I also didnt want a Tesla bc of the lack of the tax credit and a certain person who I dislike quite a bit…
Was considering a VW ID.4 and had a reservation for one. That has 250 miles of EPA range, but you have to whack that down in the winter and when your driving with the weight of 4 people in the car. While 250 sounded like a lot, I realize that was too close for comfort when taking a day trip to my in-laws about 100 miles away, in the winter and not many fast chargers available along the route. For me a BEV meant keeping an ICE on hand for those kind of trips. So my miles would be about 90% ev and 10% ICE.
I landed on a RAV4 prime where I modeled out that 80% of my driving would be ev and 20% ICE and I don’t need to maintain two cars. So I realized that even with a BEV I would still be a hybrid driver, so why not just get a PHEV with really good EV range and one that still qualifies for the full $7,500 tax credit? If range on EVs were just a little more and the fast charging infrastructure was more accessible and less bug prone it probably would have tipped me to the other side.
Was considering a VW ID.4 and had a reservation for one. That has 250 miles of EPA range, but you have to whack that down in the winter and when your driving with the weight of 4 people in the car. While 250 sounded like a lot, I realize that was too close for comfort when taking a day trip to my in-laws about 100 miles away, in the winter and not many fast chargers available along the route. For me a BEV meant keeping an ICE on hand for those kind of trips. So my miles would be about 90% ev and 10% ICE.
I landed on a RAV4 prime where I modeled out that 80% of my driving would be ev and 20% ICE and I don’t need to maintain two cars. So I realized that even with a BEV I would still be a hybrid driver, so why not just get a PHEV with really good EV range and one that still qualifies for the full $7,500 tax credit? If range on EVs were just a little more and the fast charging infrastructure was more accessible and less bug prone it probably would have tipped me to the other side.
NoGoodAtScreenNames
Feeling the Heat
Also to the argument that says “if it meets 90% of your needs isn't that good enough?” I would ask how would you like if your roof leaked 10% of the time? That 10% that the BEV doesn’t meet the need is a real issue and was the deal breaker for me. But I’m totally supportive of everyone else who is taking the leap. I hope to the next time we need a car in a few more years.
I"m glad you found a solution. But as a person who drove a Bolt all over New England and NY in 2017-2018, I am having a hard time imagining that you did not find an adequate QC network in MA at this time. I found plenty of QC all over (at least) back in the day. I have to imagine the network has grown since then.
What does 'not many fast chargers' mean? And did you contemplate topping off the charge at your in-laws?
I had a lot of trepidation about BEV road trips (and started doing them in 2015 with a 100 mile LEAF, when the network was quite thin). Never got stranded, despite a few snags. In the end, I became confident that there was always a workable plan, esp with a 250 mile BEV, and greatly enjoyed road tripping with it, despite taking the occasional out of the way detour.
SpaceBus
Minister of Fire
I think there is a lack of charging infrastructure between cities. There are many places in the US outside of the densely populated areas that might see over a hundred miles without an EV charging station. That being said, even my tiny town of 2,000 residents has two or three public charging stations, which are almost always available. Rural folk will certainly be the last to adopt BEV's.
NoGoodAtScreenNames
Feeling the Heat
I did a lot of thinking about the trips we’d take - like totally nerded out and had a spreadsheet with each different EV and PHEV I was considering. Modeled my trips using the Better Route Planner app.
MA has a pretty good Level 2 infrastructure, but in the cases where I would need a DC fast charge, outside of Tesla stations there still isn’t a whole lot depending on where you are going. We also take a lot of trips into NH and VT and it’s a desert up there, even for Level 2 charges.
At this point BEVs are both a vehicle and a lifestyle choice in the accommodations you need to make. TBH I think I could do it, but the uncertainty would give my wife lots of anxiety.
The poll question asked if the charging infrastructure is a limiting factor to EV adoption. For me it was. I want BEVs to succeed, but they need to satisfy the “just get in the car and drive” folks in addition to the enthusiasts and early adopters.
That all being said, will say that most people don’t understand home charging and that you’d hardly ever need a public charger. Most people could probably get by 90% of the time with a level 1 charger and would be perfectly fine with even a lower amped level 2. That assumes that they have access in a garage or driveway. More of a challenge for apartments and on street parking.
I think Toyotas Prime line up is a good compromise. Taking a Tesla off this list made it a pretty short one. Elon may be a the richest jerk in the world but I do believe him when he says he slept in the factory to get the M3 line up and running. Say what you want he is committed. He has changed completely the dealership model. We won’t be going back. His charging network plan and having it in place at the time of the M3 role out was critical. He could have made a car with 600 miles of range but at what cost? Fast and available chargers were is answer.
To me 80-90% of the time is good enough. I will keep my paid off ICE for as long as I can for that 10-20%.
To me the real answer is a car smaller than the M3 with 150 miles of range. And a 2k5-33k $price point. Adding an EV seems like an easier sell than replacement of an ICE. But we are Americans and and that probably won’t happen. Maybe if gas goes north of 5$ and diesel over 7$. But I don’t see how a government that supports the green economy could be elected at those prices. Maybe if it creeps up over 6 years?
I wouldn’t even advocate for level 1 charging at home. Level 2 will be so much better. Hardwired charges have the required GFI protection built in. It don’t cost but an extra tandem breaker more. If you are ready to take the the BEV plunge you better be ready to install a new dedicated charging circuit.
But it supports my point that home charging really important.
The main drawbacks I see from charging stations is the time you have to wait for a level 2 charge, and level 3 chargers are what is not widely available. Charging @home is great, but many people do not have that option. If we are to achieve wide adoption of BEVs we will need at least some kind of convenient and fast charging option that is not hampered by grid capacity.
Now I know this is a wild idea, but..
What if they designed the cars so the batteries could be swapped out. Yeah I know they're big and heavy, but you could make a machine to do it. Then you drive up to the service station, unload your discharged battery and exchange it for a charged one, pay and drive off. The service center can then recharge the batteries off-peak for the next guy. Kind of like exchanging a bbq propane tank.
I can clearly see the reasons why it's not done this way, yet. It would require more batteries than cars to be in circulation which adds cost, plus some way to keep track of the battery condition and life span, the equipment to safely move batteries, not to mention a universal battery pack design shared between auto makers (gasp!), and then you'd need service stations all over the place to charge the batteries and have them available. But I think if we are doing BEVs for the long term, that kind of infrastructure would make a lot of sense especially for people who can't charge at home.
Now I know this is a wild idea, but..
What if they designed the cars so the batteries could be swapped out. Yeah I know they're big and heavy, but you could make a machine to do it. Then you drive up to the service station, unload your discharged battery and exchange it for a charged one, pay and drive off. The service center can then recharge the batteries off-peak for the next guy. Kind of like exchanging a bbq propane tank.
I can clearly see the reasons why it's not done this way, yet. It would require more batteries than cars to be in circulation which adds cost, plus some way to keep track of the battery condition and life span, the equipment to safely move batteries, not to mention a universal battery pack design shared between auto makers (gasp!), and then you'd need service stations all over the place to charge the batteries and have them available. But I think if we are doing BEVs for the long term, that kind of infrastructure would make a lot of sense especially for people who can't charge at home.
NoGoodAtScreenNames
Feeling the Heat
Agreed. I see many people that are anti-BEV say “it takes hours to charge who wants to do that?” Not realizing that even a level 1 is capable of recovering most daily use - 90% of the time. 90% keeps coming up huh?
I don’t know if we will see public parking lots filled with an enormous amount of Level 2 chargers. But we will see more strategically placed Level 3. Basically replacing gas stations, but you only need them when traveling since you home charge. But that could shift to nighttime peaks when solar is unavailable (unless stored in a separate battery tied to the grid during the day).
I think Tesla demoed a quick swap once. I think it only works if you lease the battery pack. That is the most expensive component of the car. Quick electrical connections and coolant connections are more prone to fail. In general If we could double the charging fast DC charging rate a battery swap become almost unnecessary. The solution is battery technology. The same thing that has limited BEV adoption from the beginning. Solid state batteries will offer a real improvements. Utility companies need to get onboard NOW, but they don’t see any added profit as they are arealoselling the electricty. We have to use their infrastructure or build out own off grid solar system. (If I had a better location I totally would consider it.)
Well written piece supporting my point home charging is more important that on the road charging. I will say I think we need to 15-20 240V over level one. Just to increase the capacity of each charger. Most families have more than one car.
slate.com
There’s a Cheap Solution to the Electric Vehicle Charging Conundrum
We shouldn’t want to reduce the amount of time we spend charging; we should want to eliminate active charging entirely.
semipro
Minister of Fire
I'm starting to think that malfunctioning EVSEs are a big obstacle. One that I regularly use near our favorite restaurant only works about half the time (BTW, without any sign of apparent damage or vandalism). Apps like PlugShare help, and I report problems, but EVSEs need to be more reliable.
Apparently, this is not uncommon.
www.businessinsider.com
Apparently, this is not uncommon.
Electric-car charging stations are becoming more common, but there's still one huge problem: Tons of them don't work
Researchers surveying public charging stations in California's Bay Area, a hotbed for electric cars, found that around 23% were inoperable.
www.businessinsider.com
SpaceBus
Minister of Fire
I think this forum is going to be a bit biased toward home charging as most users are homeowners.
I would advocate for zoning/building code changes to include a certain percentage of parking space at any residential zoned property have wiring if not actuall chargers be installed.
Edit. This is selling a product and I don’t see how this could not generate cash flow for some company.
I have given up on most EVSEs. It's pretty rare on a trip when everything just works. At least 25% have been broken or have another deficiency. Another 25% are often ICEd. Early Chargepoint EVSEs have a crappy design. The plastic screen fogs up badly due to UV degradation and the printing fades. I have seen more than one that is unreadable. I'm sticking with the Volt for now. It provides the best of both worlds.
That's not going to work well in large urban areas where most people are apartment dwellers or condo owners.
SpaceBus
Minister of Fire
A lot of those people don't own cars anyway, they aren't needed. Folks who live in suburban sprawl but don't own homes both need a car and can't go EV due to renting.
There's no reason rental properties with parking couldn't also have chargers. Just like how apartment buildings can have laundry and trash pickup. It's up to the land lord to put it in, so it would need to make economic sense for them.
Places with only street parking would need to have chargers on the street. Same idea, just that now you're talking about a government entity installing and maintaining them.
lsucet
Minister of Fire
I think the cost to a landlord to create an infrastructure like that in his property will be really high. There are apartments with 4 and 5 adults leaving in it and with cars. How much will be the cost of the rent? The maintenance of something like that, will not be easy. Most of those apartments, they have to pay already to can have one of their cars under partial roof and is just one space per apartment. What about the rest of the cars? The manuever in those parking lots will not be easy.
If it’s at the code level it just part of the design and build/remodel cost. Property owners could charge for EV charging spots or contract out the charging stations. If the Government is dumping a lot of money into in road chargers they should dumps some, and I would argue equal amounts, into residential charging. On street parking /charging just needs to be contracted to the electric utilities. Most cases lines are overhead
I don’t buy the it’s too expensive to install level 2. chargers. It will have a cost it just needs to be accounted for, passed on to the the consumer or subsidized.
The changes the the NEC have increased cost and it’s passed on. Anyone think NEC will require some charging infrastructure in future versions? Think of all the extension cords for portable Level 1 charges snaking out pulling 14 amps or more.
Tesla has a decent charging network and from what I read today will be adding CCS chargers to their stations. You will get loyalty cards just like gas stations or you will get memberships like Costco. I expect charging rates to head up to 50cents a KWh to cover the cost and maintenance of the chargers. Higher of fuel stay above 4$ There is a reason Tesla removes free lifetime supercharging whenever a car is sold by a dealer.
If you think you can’t do long mile trips read this.
5700 Mile Model Y Road Trip noob style
Sorry for the long post, I wanted to share our road trip experience as a positive example for other electric noobs like me. I have had a 2022 MYP since November 2021 and have over 13k miles on it so far. I started in Sacramento early Saturday morning at 90 percent and drove to Salt Lake City...
teslamotorsclub.com
Of course, there is a cost
Yes poor people are left out as usual.
Of course it will have a cost. Landlords could easily pay it off by charging for charging or increasing rents due to the luxury of having off-street charging. If you build it they will come.
Yes poor people are left out as usual.
Another option is charging ports built into lamp posts.
insideevs.com
How About Charging Your Electric Car From A Lamppost?
Some people can't install home chargers, especially if they live in the city in an apartment or condo. This company has come up with the perfect solution.
insideevs.com
Similar threads
