Hi everyone, I just bought a house in the country and we heat off propane currently. My brother in law dad is selling his 10-12 year old central boiler. He said it leaked once due to a crack about 5 years ago but he welded it and has worked fine ever since. He also replaced the heating element a couple years ago. He no longer can cut wood due to his health and age. He is asking $2000. Is this a fair price? I plan to take a look it this weekend and can post images. Any advice is appreciated.
Wood furnace newbie
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brenndatomu
Minister of Fire
Hi there. I'd be a little leery of a boiler that has already had a repair, especially over 10 years old. Chances are that more are coming, and sooner than later.
If you are able to repair it yourself, or can easily have it repaired then that may not be a big deal to you.
The other thing is you said is that he was getting too old to keep this thing fed...well, they do tend to have a big appetite...that can really wear a person out after a while...and is a big time suck.
Don't forget the cost of the boiler is only part of the cost, buying the line, pumps, controls, etc, etc, etc, it really adds up.
$2k would buy a decent wood furnace brand new, and it sounds like you may have forced air furnace already? It wouldn't take much to add a wood furnace on if you have a chimney available.
If you are able to repair it yourself, or can easily have it repaired then that may not be a big deal to you.
The other thing is you said is that he was getting too old to keep this thing fed...well, they do tend to have a big appetite...that can really wear a person out after a while...and is a big time suck.
Don't forget the cost of the boiler is only part of the cost, buying the line, pumps, controls, etc, etc, etc, it really adds up.
$2k would buy a decent wood furnace brand new, and it sounds like you may have forced air furnace already? It wouldn't take much to add a wood furnace on if you have a chimney available.
Eric Johnson
Mod Emeritus
What do you mean by the "heating element?" Is there an electric heat backup? In a wood boiler, the firebox is the heating element.
maple1
Minister of Fire
I wouldn't buy a 10-12 year old used OWB that has been fixed already for any more than I could get for it for scrap at a scrap yard.
Thanks everyone for your replies. My brother in law most likely miss spoke or I miss heard him when I said heating element, but it was something electrical that went out. He said it only cost $50.00. Between the crack that he welded and the electric part he replaced several years ago he said it works great. I have no knowledge on how to repair this thing if it were to break down so that is a concern. I do know people who know how to work on them but that is still a cost just weary about things to look out for that would indicate major repairs. I was interested in looking at it as it was way cheaper than what I've been seeing online. Here is my current heat set up. I have a hot water boiler system for our main house so it's just radiant heat running through base board heaters. Their was an addition added on in 2011 before I bought the home so there is a separate furnace underneath the addition that heats through forced air. All of which is ran through my propane tank. My house is 2,500 square ft., two stories and a basement. We have had a mild winter so far here in Ohio so far and propane is actually half the price it was last year as I seen the previous owners receipts they left behind. We moved in May of '15 so this is our first winter in the house. Temperatures dropped below zero for a while and it's been a really cold two months. I have a 500 gallon propane tank which I've had to fill 3 times in the last 2 months. Last fill was on the 21st of this month and corrected the tank to 60%. It's already at 50%. It costs me between $300- $450 a fill up and it's only been under two months and I will most likely have to order more in about a week as it takes them up to a 5 business days to deliver. Seems to lose 10% every week. No leaks as they did a system check at last fill up.
brenndatomu
Where can I find a brand new OWB for $2,000? The ones I've seen online range between $3,500- $8,000 or more. If anyone can guide me in the right direction with which makes and models to consider that would also be appreciated. I've seen Central Boiler, P&M, Woodmaster, Crown Royal. If anyone one owns any of these or knows others they would recommend I would appreciate your feed back and recommendations on purchasing new. Thanks again for everyone's feedback.
brenndatomu
Where can I find a brand new OWB for $2,000? The ones I've seen online range between $3,500- $8,000 or more. If anyone can guide me in the right direction with which makes and models to consider that would also be appreciated. I've seen Central Boiler, P&M, Woodmaster, Crown Royal. If anyone one owns any of these or knows others they would recommend I would appreciate your feed back and recommendations on purchasing new. Thanks again for everyone's feedback.
maple1
Minister of Fire
He didn't say owb, he said furnace.
There are lots of possibilities out there, keep up the info search. I would pass on any used OWB I think, especially one that's been welded on once already.
There are lots of possibilities out there, keep up the info search. I would pass on any used OWB I think, especially one that's been welded on once already.
lexybird
Minister of Fire
Buying a old owb that has been repaired is like buying a time bomb . It's not a question of if ..but a question of when
Thanks for clarifying on his comment. My insurance won't allow an inside wood furnace they said it would have had to have an existing one in order for them to allow it. I don't want to heat with propane so searching online is what I have been doing. I know a guy who who has a friend who he says sells OWB. He said he's a Mennonite and his cousin builds them for their community and makes it for his cousin to sell in his shop. I am trying to set up a time to go out to his shop to see what he has to offer. I'm curious as to the quality of the build being that Mennonites are known for their craftmanship here in Ohio. I've checked with my township and there are no restrictions on OWB so I'm in the clear if he doesn't offer the Phase 2 models I've heard of.
maple1
Minister of Fire
DoubleB
Minister of Fire
I believe it, but you might just want a different insurance company. If I'm not mistaken there are lots of members here from OH who have indoor boilers and homeowner's insurance. Also, if your insurance agent is like my former agent, he didn't know the difference between a wood furnace, wood stove, wood boiler, or wood fireplace until I discussed it at length. There's a good chance your agent is denying a different appliance than you are considering. Also, it sounds like you are asking about a wood boiler (heated water), but calling it a wood furnace (heated air), which may be confusing him.
Also, to go with what @brenndatomu said, one way to consider your option is to pretend your BIL Dad's boiler was free. Add up the remaining costs, including family angst if something goes south. Is it still your best option? If not, then it certainly isn't your best option at $2000 cost.
Finally, I and many members here got a new wood furnace for last winter and are having cracking problems right away. We got refunded so technically we're not out any money on the furnace. But the hassle of researching a replacement unit, disconnecting and yanking the furnace out of the basement, pushing down a different one, new duct connections, etc. is a big cost of time and money. And you're even more likely for that to happen with this used unit, I'd imagine.
By the way, welcome to Hearth!
Maple, I've been searching for people who sell it. My friend owns a landscaping business and cuts a lot of trees he offered to sell me some @ $60 a truck load. I'm still looking for other suppliers in the area. I'm new to all this but from what I heard from friends and my brother in law they could go through a small truck load a week if was above freezing temps but if it was below freezing they could go through 3 or 4 full truck loads a month. Not sure if there exaggerating, I hope so but if not I'm up for the cutting given I have a chainsaw and plenty of property and 32X84 barn to store wood. If it will save me money I'm for it. I'm 32 years old with a new home and young family. I plan to be here for a long time so I want to be as cost effective as possible.
DoubeB, Thanks for the advice on the insurance. I will definitely look into that. I heard about the cracking on the OWB's just not within the first year, I just figured there might be a good one out there that can last 10 to 20 years it might be worth the savings. What kind of OWB did you buy? Any advice on what to stay away from would be appreciated.
DoubeB, Thanks for the advice on the insurance. I will definitely look into that. I heard about the cracking on the OWB's just not within the first year, I just figured there might be a good one out there that can last 10 to 20 years it might be worth the savings. What kind of OWB did you buy? Any advice on what to stay away from would be appreciated.
I think I would rather have the 10-12 year old central boiler than a brand new one made by the horse and buggy clan, but it's your money.
laynes69
Minister of Fire
There's a few things to consider. If you purchase a unit that's built by the mennonites, it's probably not listed or tested. If something happens to go wrong, insurance won't cover it. An OWB that age is a ticking timebomb.
If your burning that much propane, I would expect more than a truckload of wood a week with an OWB. I have two friends with OWB's. One burned 30 some truck loads, while another burned over 50 face cord (1/3 cord) of wood. It was cold last year, but that's alot of wood! The neighbor who also heats with one, burned 12 face cord and we had burned 2 when I spoke with him. Check around on wood, 60 dollars a truck load would add up quickly. Have you considered an energy audit? Invest a few hundred dollars and find out where your losing your heat.
If your burning that much propane, I would expect more than a truckload of wood a week with an OWB. I have two friends with OWB's. One burned 30 some truck loads, while another burned over 50 face cord (1/3 cord) of wood. It was cold last year, but that's alot of wood! The neighbor who also heats with one, burned 12 face cord and we had burned 2 when I spoke with him. Check around on wood, 60 dollars a truck load would add up quickly. Have you considered an energy audit? Invest a few hundred dollars and find out where your losing your heat.
brenndatomu
Minister of Fire
Man, that sounds like a pretty serious heat load. I'd consider investigating beefing up insulation and/or air sealing the house...it will pay you back 24/7/365.
Yeah, like @maple1 said, I was referring to a indoor wood furnace
DoubleB
Minister of Fire
Actually, I have a furnace (hot air ducts), not a OWB (hot water pipes). I have a Drolet Tundra, if you are really bored you can see some of the cracking discussion on this thread, starting around page 3:
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/everything-drolet-tundra-heatmax.140788/page-3
Yep, probably exaggerating, but in the unfavorable direction. Like Laynes said, you'll probably go through much more than that. My furnace is pretty efficient, and I go through a full cord/month in January, which is 3 loads in my pickup.
Just some thoughts...I admire your ambition and it will serve you well. I believe I feel the same about myself, although a new home and young family are too valuable to commit all your free time to firewood. If it's possible to get a more efficient wood heater, in the long run you'll probably enjoy it more because it serves you, instead of you being slave to it. Also, compared to the cost of a whole boiler setup, have you considered a simple wood stove? It won't eliminate your LP bills, but will put a big dent in them and might be a whole lot less expensive to install, if your house layout is conducive.
Thanks for the feedback everyone. I've taken the 10-12 yr old OWB off my list to look into based on everyone's advice. At this point any suggestions on reputable companies that make reliable efficient OWB's or indoor wood furnaces given I can get insurance to cover an indoor one? I'm pretty sure I know where I'm losing heat, I have some older windows through out this house. It seemed like the previous owners were in the middle of remodeling and had replaced about half of them but left the the other half as is. We put up plastic to try to prevent the draft from coming in on the ones upstairs in our bedroom but it still gets around 62 degrees in our bedroom on nights that are below zero. Our house is out in the open on 7 acres so it gets hammered with a lot of winds. The addition of the house is probably the best insulated as it holds the best heart but the previous owners also stated they had insulation shot in all the way around from the outside of the main house which is evident from the outside. The house has an attic and there's a lot of old insulation that has fallen and lots missing so between that and the older windows in our bedroom, I believe that's where most of my heat is going. So trust me when I say insulation is definitely on the top of my list but we we had lots of repairs getting into the house due to the condition of the barn and the type of loan we had required us to fix them before getting approved for the loan of the house and so we spent a considerable amount of our savings doing so. I'm up for any ideas that will save me money on heating. Propane was currently $1.31 a gallon when I bought it last week compared to $2.71 a gallon last winter. I know propane can become costly and thought I might look to a cheaper alternative heating source that could connect to my existing hot water boiler system for my main house and also connect to my existing forced air furnace in my addition. Three truck loads a week don't sound bad for indoor wood furnace at $60 a truck load or cheaper for the month of January. way better than what I've spent in January alone. How many square ft are you heating?
brenndatomu
Minister of Fire
You are probably asking @DoubleB , but I will give example too. I have one of those cracked up Tundra wood furnaces (still works fine) and I am actively heating 1200 sq ft, of 75 YO brick Cape Cod with average insulation, and "inactively" heating 1200 more with just the heat loss off the furnace in the basement (which is another big advantage of indoor units) I also have a small "EPA" wood stove in the fireplace in the living room that we use once the temp goes above 35*- 40* or so. Between the two units I have used ~1.5 cords of wood this whole winter so far. At 1/3 cord per pickup load, thats a lil less than 5 loads...or $300 for the whole year, using your price example...Oh, and about a gallon of fuel oil the weekend we were gone.
I appreciate the example. Definitely seems cost effective and efficient
brenndatomu
The only problem for me with considering a indoor wood burning furnace is that the house has no current chimney. It used to have one but it was closed off and made into a closet type pantry deal in the middle of the wall that divides our dining room and living room. I'm sure I could look into the cost of seeing if a new one could be installed where the old one was or wherever it would be best to put it however I would have to clear it with my current insurance or possibly shop for different insurance that is willing to provide coverage on a indoor wood furnace. Does anyone know if it cost you more insurance to have one? Just curious but I will definitely be calling my insurance tomorrow to inquiry about what they will cover. I know my insurance was ok with an outdoor wood boiler and when I seen the new EPA Phase 2 models that are supposed to burn 30-50 less wood than older models and were more efficient I became interested in looking into an alternative heat source. To be honest I'm not to thrilled about having an indoor wood furnace partly because I've heard of bad things happening with people with wood stoves which I know are two different things, but still makes me wonder how much safer they are than wood stoves? For this reason I was leaning toward and outdoor wood boiler as its far away from the house and I also heard they can connect to existing duct work and radiant heat space heaters ran through my house. Sounds like this is not possible with an indoor one correct? Thanks for the advice everyone. I have my research cut out for me yet. Wish me luck and I will keep you posted on what my options are once I talk to my insurance company.
brenndatomu
The only problem for me with considering a indoor wood burning furnace is that the house has no current chimney. It used to have one but it was closed off and made into a closet type pantry deal in the middle of the wall that divides our dining room and living room. I'm sure I could look into the cost of seeing if a new one could be installed where the old one was or wherever it would be best to put it however I would have to clear it with my current insurance or possibly shop for different insurance that is willing to provide coverage on a indoor wood furnace. Does anyone know if it cost you more insurance to have one? Just curious but I will definitely be calling my insurance tomorrow to inquiry about what they will cover. I know my insurance was ok with an outdoor wood boiler and when I seen the new EPA Phase 2 models that are supposed to burn 30-50 less wood than older models and were more efficient I became interested in looking into an alternative heat source. To be honest I'm not to thrilled about having an indoor wood furnace partly because I've heard of bad things happening with people with wood stoves which I know are two different things, but still makes me wonder how much safer they are than wood stoves? For this reason I was leaning toward and outdoor wood boiler as its far away from the house and I also heard they can connect to existing duct work and radiant heat space heaters ran through my house. Sounds like this is not possible with an indoor one correct? Thanks for the advice everyone. I have my research cut out for me yet. Wish me luck and I will keep you posted on what my options are once I talk to my insurance company.
DoubleB
Minister of Fire
Actually about three truck loads per month, in my case about 1 full cord. I've gone through about 2 cords so far for the year heating 2100 sq ft of drafty farmhouse plus keeping the 1050 sq ft basement comfy warm too. That's mostly for December and January; November and October were so warm I mostly ran the LP furnace then, using about 75 gallons those months.
I see. Certainly something that affects your decision. Seems each house is unique and the best solution depends upon your house, your objectives, and your personal preferences.
My insurance did not go up (or down) when I worked with them to put in my wood furnace.
I honestly don't know that much about the new EPA OWBs, so I can't knock them, but someone else may have good advice. No matter what you do, if you want an efficient wood heater or any type, you're going to need dry wood. If you are itching for some activity, feel free to start cutting and splitting now. Check out the "wood shed" forum for lots of advice on that.
I hear ya, I was in the same boat. We had a stove as a kid, had a chimney fire once, scary. But after going on here I became convinced that an indoor unit can be very very safe as long as you are attentive to it, for example: burn dry wood; clean the chimney; follow installation instructions (clearances to combustibles); follow general housekeeping to avoid storing your kindling where an occasional spark may fly; etc.
I found the members here to help me a lot, and I'm sure you will too. Have a great day!
maple1
Minister of Fire
You've got some fundamentals to iron out - once you get past those you can start the planning.
Those fundamentals would be, do you want the appliance in the house or outside, and do you want to heat air or water?
Basic major difference is that usually if it's outside the house more wood will be burned. Maybe significantly more depending on how you go. Main pros & cons are inside = chimney, outside = underground piping (good stuff costs over $10/foot).
And there is also the possibility of an efficient indoor boiler, placed in an outbuilding that you can use some heat in anyway.
Those fundamentals would be, do you want the appliance in the house or outside, and do you want to heat air or water?
Basic major difference is that usually if it's outside the house more wood will be burned. Maybe significantly more depending on how you go. Main pros & cons are inside = chimney, outside = underground piping (good stuff costs over $10/foot).
And there is also the possibility of an efficient indoor boiler, placed in an outbuilding that you can use some heat in anyway.
brenndatomu
Minister of Fire
Well, that could be an issue, but keep in mind that you may be able to install a stainless steel Class A chimney out through the basement wall for $500-$1000 depending on your situation. Menards puts Supervent brand Class A chimney on sale once in a while, they have by far the best price on it.
I would say that about 75% of HO ins companys will be Ok with wood heat as long as it is "secondary". Meaning that you have some other form of "automatic" heat that will keep the place from freezing up without any manual input from anyone. So when you call them, you will want to make sure they understand that the wood heat is not "primary", even if you plan on not running the LP much.
Some will want the chimney and wood burner installed by a "pro", or maybe inspected by some "pro" of their choosing. I use quotes on "pro" because many people come here to figure out how to correct what their "pro" installed.
Many companys will want an extra $50 per year or so if you have any kind of wood burner. If you have a fireplace then you are already paying the surcharge most likely.
Like @DoubleB said, do a proper install, burn good dry wood, do good chimney maintenance, and keep all combustibles away from the stove/chimney and you will really limit your chances of a problem down to about the same as with any regular furnace.
This is what I have heard too. One other thing that can really improve performance with a OWB is to have storage...hot water storage that is. An large well insulated tank that the boiler will heat up as fast as it can (not allowing the fire to smolder, which causes alot of the smoke and stink that OWBs are so famous for) then when your house calls for heat it draws hot water form the tank as needed. The are many threads on here about ways of doing boiler storage. It can get pricey to do it well though...
No, indoor (IWB) or outdoor (OWB), either one can be hooked up to push hot air, or hot water...or really you could do both with one unit.
But when someone refers to a wood furnace...generally they are meaning a unit that just pushes hot air (forced air)
Thanks again for the feedback everyone. This has all been really helpful. With all the feedback I've received here about OWB, the IWB or IWF seem to be the way to go cost wise and they seem to be more reliable due to not being exposed to the elements. I spoke with my insurance agent and she told me I can have IWB or OWB as long as it's an add on and not the primary source of heat. She said I couldn't just have a primary heating source that had to be fed manually, It also has to be installed by a professional if I decide to get it as a add on. So sounds like I have to have propane no matter what. Does anyone know if you can have both propane and OWB or IWB connected to the same heating system? How does it work? I don't like the idea of IWB in my house. To many concerns about safety and smell of burnt wood through the house. My kid has terrible allergies and that would make things worse for him if that's the case. IWB seem to be way cheaper than OWB so I have considered maybe seeing if I could store a IWB somewhere else other than my house. Ex: I have a old brick milk house on the property about 100 ft from the house that i have to repair the roof on anyway this summer. It already has a concrete slab I would just have to gut it the inside to make room. I have a huge barn with a workshop that also has a concrete slab and I would have a big enough entrance to be able to place when in there. My detached garage is closer but I wasn't even sure if anything like that has been done before. Does anyone know if this is possible?
maple1
Minister of Fire
I have an indoor wood/coal furnace made by Energy King and I really like it. I bun coal mostly (do yourself a favor and look into furnaces that have the ability to burn coal) but do have a lot of wood cut, split, and stacked. Coal is easy to get here and burns great. I burn both anthracite (hard coal) and bituminous (soft coal) and they both burn great in my Energy King 480EK. I heat 2500+ square feet with no issue. I`ve burnt approximately 1.5 tons of bit coal and about 1.5 chord of wood. My furnace is the basement and the radiant heat is awesome. Think about it, the furnace maintains a door temp of 500ish degrees and the rest of the steel stays at 140 on average. That heat radiates and rises through out the house too.
Mess can be kept minimal if you pay attention to what you are doing. I have a walk out basement that I park a 5x8 trailer by. When I need more coal I just wheel my wagon to the door and shovel coal in until it`s full and then take it over by the furnace. NO DUST! I do the same with the wood but I bring it to the door in the tractor bucket and stack it until my 3x6 pallet is about chest high. (I`ve burned about 3 of those)
When looking for a furnace LOOK FOR SHAKER GRATE equipped models. I`d recommend staying away from hot blast, fire chief, and other cheaper models. Based on what I`ve been told (not bashing).
Mess can be kept minimal if you pay attention to what you are doing. I have a walk out basement that I park a 5x8 trailer by. When I need more coal I just wheel my wagon to the door and shovel coal in until it`s full and then take it over by the furnace. NO DUST! I do the same with the wood but I bring it to the door in the tractor bucket and stack it until my 3x6 pallet is about chest high. (I`ve burned about 3 of those)
When looking for a furnace LOOK FOR SHAKER GRATE equipped models. I`d recommend staying away from hot blast, fire chief, and other cheaper models. Based on what I`ve been told (not bashing).
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