NZ Fisher Stove specs needed

willowight_nz · Mar 30, 2016

Hi everyone I'm hoping I can get some help here. I have just moved into a house that has been relocated and as such the firebox needs to be reinstalled. It is a Fisher Stove made in New Zealand and I believe has the same doors as a Grandma III but am unsure if that model was made in NZ at all. I want to try and maintain the original fittings of the house as much as possible and right now the builder is talking about having to rip the whole fireplace out in order to legally reinstall the fire meaning wrecking the sculpted plaster crown mouldings, saying goodbye to the original rimu mantlepiece etc, terrifying news!
Basically I'm figuring that when the house was redone in the 70s or 80s, they were able to install this stove without gutting too much of the dining room, so if I can get the proper installation specs for it they may be able to put it in without having to wreck too much. It's a really cool stove too so I would really like to still be able to keep it as well.
In fact any info at all would be greatly appreciated!
Photo attached hopefully

coaly · Mar 31, 2016

Welcome to the Forum,
Brick count across the back (and on sides) will tell me if it's a full size or the smaller insert. By the ash fender (shelf) I believe it's a small one. NZ made some changes to trim details so it could be either. They used the same size door handles and yours looks like oversize handles for the doors, so that's another reason I think it's the smaller unit. If it's a full size, yes, they would be Grandma III doors. In North American markets there were 3 downsized inserts. Honey Bear, Cub, and Polar Bear. The size of the air vent on top is like a Polar Bear for factory built Zero Clearance Fireplaces. Some of your areas tend to mix wood and coal a lot, so it could be made with the larger air jacket to extract the extra heat generated with the mix.

Only touch the brass doors with polish for precious metals like silver, brass, bronze and gold. Nothing abrasive and it will polish up like a mirror.

willowight_nz · Mar 31, 2016

Hi coaly, thanks for that! I think you are right, this one looks to be a Honey Bear based on the specs sheet I managed to get from Fisher in NZ. They couldn't give me anything more than the info below though i.e. no installation/combustible clearance specs

Your mention of zero clearance sounds like it could be promising, could you explain that for me?
Thanks again

coaly · Mar 31, 2016

Yes, I'm fairly certain it is a Honey Bear. Does it have a step top as shown in diagram? That makes sense having the large opening at top.
Our Inserts are an internal firebox with outside jacket all around, including bottom, sides, back and top. A blower pushes air in the bottom slot (or side fans push into one or both sides and out top) They do not have a step stop like freestanding stoves.
I'll attach some pictures showing how they radiate heat from the front that sticks out of the hearth and convection air from the air space all around the firebox with blower.
The Polar Bear has a larger air space between firebox and outer shell. A manufactured zero clearance fireplace is similar to a gas fireplace made to install without noncombustible hearth.

Here's some of our Inserts;

Honey Bear - notice outer shell on rear half that inserts into fireplace.

Full size - notice the1 inch channel iron is the same material as door seal around ash fender. Honey Bear just has a flat tray.

On it's back, air slot across bottom for air intake.

Insert hand painted doors w blower 5.jpg

The hot air shield at top protects mantel over fireplace opening. The face plate came as a kit to block off fireplace opening. Originally they were made to slide into hearth and use existing flue. Now they must be directly connected to flue liner the same size as stove outlet. a larger flue for fireplace allows exhaust gasses to expand and cool causing rapid creosote formation.

All our Inserts also had a built in damper on the top. Notice there was no pipe or flange for connecting to flue. This was later done with a "Boot" to connect to stainless steel liner.

Did Fisher Traditional in NZ send you that electronically or did you scan it? That is the only literature from the original stoves I've seen from them.
A Canadian fabricator relocated there and years ago I was told they only had info on the current models. That was a main dealer in Christchurch before the quake. I don't know if they rebuilt that one.
I'm always looking for any info I can find from any products they made there.
Here's a Honey Bear from NZ with that we called Fireplace Leg option;

Wet Back connection and tag.

willowight_nz · Mar 31, 2016

coaly said:
Yes, I'm fairly certain it is a Honey Bear. Does it have a step top as shown in diagram? That makes sense having the large opening at top.

I haven't been able to get in close enough to see if it does have a step-top (If by step-top you are meaning what I think you are). From the outside, the top looks flat, from the top of the vent right to the back of the fireplace. There is only a little ledge in front of the vent. It doesn't look like the firebox itself is inserted into anything but I'm thinking (hoping) that the second layer of metal over the top is purposely there to reduce the amount of heat that comes out of the top of the firebox (instead of going up it gets pushed out the front), thereby allowing it to sit under a traditional mantlepiece. This is definitely promising!

coaly said:
Did Fisher Traditional in NZ send you that electronically or did you scan it? That is the only literature from the original stoves I've seen from them.
A Canadian fabricator relocated there and years ago I was told they only had info on the current models. That was a main dealer in Christchurch before the quake. I don't know if they rebuilt that one.
I'm always looking for any info I can find from any products they made there.

They sent it to me electronically after I emailed requesting any info at all that they may have on older models, they asked me for a photo so I sent the same one as above and they came back with that

That Honey Bear is just beautiful, I do wish mine had feet but it would make the issue of keeping the mantlepiece even more problematic, I think. I hope the doors on mine will come up that nice! It has some kind of metal skirts with it, that I assume must clip on to the sides based on the diagram.

willowight_nz · Mar 31, 2016

coaly said:
Here's a Honey Bear from NZ with that we called Fireplace Leg option;

View attachment 177507

Just looking at the models sheet from Fisher, it looks like this one could be a Teddy Bear or Baby Bear?

coaly · Mar 31, 2016

Our Teddy is a pedestal stove with the same size box as Goldilocks. Teddy gets air through doors, Goldi through pedestal from under home. Goldi is manufactured home and mobile home certified and only uses outdoor air intake. They will have 5 bricks across the back.
I believe yours will have 4. (Honey Insert)
Baby Bear is smaller, but measurements should determine what you have. (width across top plate -D-)
You should be able to see if it has a step top by looking inside.
Honey at top right is also the only box with no legs for use on non-combustible hearth. (Fireplace Insert) It will not have "clearance to combustibles" like the rest since it is made for use in non-combustible area.

We had a Honey free standing with welded pedestal, a Honey Convertible with removable legs or bolt on pedestal for mobile home use getting air from under home, or Honey Insert. Some fabricators made a single door Honey as well.

willowight_nz · Mar 31, 2016

coaly said:
Honey at top right is also the only box with no legs for use on non-combustible hearth. (Fireplace Insert) It will not have "clearance to combustibles" like the rest since it is made for use in non-combustible area.

I will try and get in to do some measuring when I get home, check the firebricks and see how the metal skirts fit on. Pretty much the picture I am getting, is that it was designed to slot into the old open brick fireplaces, with the heat shield on top to prevent damage to the mantlepiece? Please correct me if I'm on the wrong track here! This would be problematic as the old bricks were removed when the house was moved - it will be an expensive task to get them replaced I think!

stonecold300 · Mar 31, 2016

Hi. I am based in wellington NZ, and am looking to remove my Fisher fireplace. I think from all the discussions above it is Honey Bear, probably 30 years old? In reasonably good condition. Not sure how to remove it, and I don't want to damage it. If anyone is interested in acquiring it for parts or as a working unit, I am more than happy to work something out. But I really need help removing it. Please assist. I am posting this here because the thread was started about a NZ Fisher and my dilemma may solve someone else's if we work together?

coaly · Mar 31, 2016

Correct, the air slots allow radiated heat to escape as convection heated air. It becomes a convection heater instead of radiant heater. It will only radiate off the front and doors that stick out. Normally an opening under Insert allows the heated air to rise out the top. Ours had the slot under it so air rises up the back and out the front. Yours may need to sit up on bricks to allow circulation under it, up the back, and out the top. That is where a blower is added under it to blow under, up the back and out the top. You get the most heat from around the exhaust outlet area. That's where you need air flow to get the heat into the air instead of heating masonry that radiates outdoors and upwards as well.
This thread has pictures of the many blowers that were available.
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/made-a-blower-for-my-fisher-insert.117672/

If you have a wood mantel, page 7 and 8 in this Insert manual shows mantel protection requirements;
https://www.hearth.com/images/uploads/fishinsertmanual.pdf

This is the Deflector size at top of air vent.

The manual shows the Insert slid into hearth without connecting to a liner. This method proved to be unsatisfactory and must be connected to a liner.

coaly · Mar 31, 2016

stonecold300 said:
Hi. I am based in wellington NZ, and am looking to remove my Fisher fireplace. I think from all the discussions above it is Honey Bear, probably 30 years old? In reasonably good condition. Not sure how to remove it, and I don't want to damage it. If anyone is interested in acquiring it for parts or as a working unit, I am more than happy to work something out. But I really need help removing it. Please assist. I am position this here because the thread was started about a NZ Fisher and my dilemma may solve someone else's if we work together?

Welcome to the forum,
Early Fishers were made at this address in Mt. Wellington. Here's a tag picture;

I've found prying up with a bar until you can get pipes under them for rollers allows them to roll out easily. Keeping them on a cart or wheels is the trick for one person removal and installation.

stonecold300 · Apr 1, 2016

Thanks, Coaly. My real concern is that I have no way of telling if there is a flue in the chimney directly connected to the firebox. Looking into the cavity above the firebox there is definitely a cylinder there but I don't know if that is the flue going up the chimney or not. So if I pull the insert out somehow, I am not sure if I will damage it. Should I post pictures?

coaly · Apr 2, 2016

You can only remove the face plate covers to see if it will lift off or out of the Insert. You may be able to look up flue with mirror from inside to determine how high the pipe connection goes or if it is a liner all the way up.The chimney pros are more likely to see your question in the Classic Wood Stove Forum.

willowight_nz · Apr 5, 2016

coaly said:
Correct, the air slots allow radiated heat to escape as convection heated air. It becomes a convection heater instead of radiant heater. It will only radiate off the front and doors that stick out. Normally an opening under Insert allows the heated air to rise out the top. Ours had the slot under it so air rises up the back and out the front. Yours may need to sit up on bricks to allow circulation under it, up the back, and out the top. That is where a blower is added under it to blow under, up the back and out the top. You get the most heat from around the exhaust outlet area. That's where you need air flow to get the heat into the air instead of heating masonry that radiates outdoors and upwards as well.
This thread has pictures of the many blowers that were available.
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/made-a-blower-for-my-fisher-insert.117672/

If you have a wood mantel, page 7 and 8 in this Insert manual shows mantel protection requirements;
https://www.hearth.com/images/uploads/fishinsertmanual.pdf

View attachment 177513 This is the Deflector size at top of air vent.

The manual shows the Insert slid into hearth without connecting to a liner. This method proved to be unsatisfactory and must be connected to a liner.

I just love these old manuals :eek:

Okay so it is definitely an NZ Honey Bear Insert, from the spec sheet given to me by Fisher Traditional. The measurements are the same as on the sheet if you only measure the "insertable section" of the stove, i.e. excluding the part that would stick out of the masonry. It has fascia/faceplates to block off any remaining open space between the stove and the brick work. The only difference between my honey bear insert and the one on the sheet is that it does not have a step-top - inside the jacket the top is flat. I'm picking that they just had a generic "stove" diagram and then just added on the extra features of each stove, as all the others have step tops.

So my current dilemma is this, we can either re-build a masonry fireplace, put the stove back in and tell the council that it's original in order to get building consent. This isn't the preferred option! and may not get consent anyway...

The other is to use a zero clearance jacket and line the timber frame with something else, again still may not get consent! So it turns out that whatever we do they still might not say that it's compliant because they will likely treat it as a second-hand fire.

We can always put it back in and try just saying it was like that already

having some kind of installation specs would make this easier, but I just can't find ANYTHING (not even something I can convincingly fudge to make it look like it's for this honey bear!)

I'm not at all worried about it being unsafe otherwise I wouldn't be trying so hard to get it back in, these guys are just OVER THE TOP so I need to find something, anything on paper to show them.

Thank you too so much Coaly for all your help, I've learnt so much in just a few days about fires :D Such a fantastic community x

willowight_nz · Apr 5, 2016

I managed to piece it all together in the weekend and it came up like this :D the face plates seem to have brass in the corners to match the doors, they are so heavy! As it you can see it already has a heat deflector as well

She just needs a good clean up

you can see the timber frame behind, it's definitely not original the rest of the house is rimu and this appears to be pine. The living room is on the other side so maybe it went all the way through at some point? The original fireplace was definitely altered when this went in though.

This is where it needs to fit!

The builder is pretty convinced he can get it to pass consent by ripping out that front wall up to the ceiling and utilising the help of a friendly inspector. I will honestly cry! Seems to be defeating the whole purpose of an insert too.

I'm just desperate to save the sculpted plaster and this beauty

I don't know that I will be allowed to buy a new zero-clearance fire just to keep it as it was! Plus, I'm pretty attached to this stove now

It's getting cold here now

coaly · Apr 5, 2016

This is an installation for a zero clearance fireplace, (Polar Bear) not an Insert for non-combustible use. (Honey Bear)
If it came out of there, that is probably what it is. I was under the impression it came out of a non-combustible hearth.
Here is a picture of a Polar Bear with the large opening at the top. Ours didn't use the grille you have above it. The picture of the front you sent to Fisher Traditional could be either. They may not have specs or be aware of the Polar Bear. (The solid doors are marked Polar Bear inside, I believe the brass and glass use Honey Bear doors) Look on the inside of doors carefully for a P.B. or Polar Bear marking. You may have to clean it with a wire brush. Other than that, only a tag on it would verify that it was built for zero clearance.
Pictures of the back and inlet under it will help us here as well as them to determine what you have.

Compare your Insert to the pictures in this thread;
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads...-please-help-to-identify.110919/#post-1467723

willowight_nz · Apr 6, 2016

coaly said:
This is an installation for a zero clearance fireplace, (Polar Bear) not an Insert for non-combustible use. (Honey Bear)
If it came out of there, that is probably what it is. I was under the impression it came out of a non-combustible hearth.
Here is a picture of a Polar Bear with the large opening at the top. Ours didn't use the grille you have above it. The picture of the front you sent to Fisher Traditional could be either. They may not have specs or be aware of the Polar Bear. (The solid doors are marked Polar Bear inside, I believe the brass and glass use Honey Bear doors) Look on the inside of doors carefully for a P.B. or Polar Bear marking. You may have to clean it with a wire brush. Other than that, only a tag on it would verify that it was built for zero clearance.
Pictures of the back and inlet under it will help us here as well as them to determine what you have.

View attachment 177700

Compare your Insert to the pictures in this thread;
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads...-please-help-to-identify.110919/#post-1467723

Thanks, I should specify that there was previously a masonry fireplace in the cavity. It would have been ripped out prior to the house being relocated, so now I am just left with the wooden cavity.

Intake

Inside hot air outlet with grill off

Inside box, back is 3 bricks wide

The one in that post looks exactly like mine. So what I really need here is Polar Bear specs? Is there an owners manual available for the Polar Bear?

stonecold300 · Apr 6, 2016

willowight_nz said:
I managed to piece it all together in the weekend and it came up like this :D the face plates seem to have brass in the corners to match the doors, they are so heavy! As it you can see it already has a heat deflector as well
View attachment 177665

She just needs a good clean up you can see the timber frame behind, it's definitely not original the rest of the house is rimu and this appears to be pine. The living room is on the other side so maybe it went all the way through at some point? The original fireplace was definitely altered when this went in though.

This is where it needs to fit!
View attachment 177666

The builder is pretty convinced he can get it to pass consent by ripping out that front wall up to the ceiling and utilising the help of a friendly inspector. I will honestly cry! Seems to be defeating the whole purpose of an insert too.

I'm just desperate to save the sculpted plaster and this beauty
View attachment 177667

I don't know that I will be allowed to buy a new zero-clearance fire just to keep it as it was! Plus, I'm pretty attached to this stove now

It's getting cold here now

This is exactly like mine

coaly · Apr 6, 2016

Thanks for the better pictures, they tell the story. No, I don't have a Polar Bear manual.
Without a tag I would install it within a non-combustible hearth. Inspectors aren't going to know it's for zero clearance and shouldn't accept it as one without the tag anyway.
If they won't allow it, we're going to have to start figuring shipping to the U.S. ::-)

willowight_nz · Apr 7, 2016

coaly said:
Thanks for the better pictures, they tell the story. No, I don't have a Polar Bear manual.
Without a tag I would install it within a non-combustible hearth. Inspectors aren't going to know it's for zero clearance and shouldn't accept it as one without the tag anyway.
If they won't allow it, we're going to have to start figuring shipping to the U.S.

I have got a heating engineer coming to look next week, without seeing it he seemed to think it would be possible to reline the bottom of the cavity with concrete brick and use a triple skin flue, and the council should accept it as installed as per original (I have got my hands on the original consent which is helpful). With an engineers sign-off they can dust theirs hands of any responsibility. Sounds promising, fingers crossed!

NZ Fisher Stove specs needed

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