Old Stove vs New Stove

RSQJEEP · Nov 2, 2016

You all have a very informative, positive forum and I wanted to say thank you for all of the valuable information! I apologize if I put this in the wrong forum, but it kind of involves new and old stoves. Please move if need be.

Question at hand: do we replace the old 'inefficient' stove with a newer EPA approved non-cat stove?

House history: Our farmhouse was built in 1894 and has since been remodeled by many over the years. As our primary heat today, we burn hardwood (primarily oak) in the Birmingham Stove & Range 'Ponderosa" wood stove (we have no idea how old it is which is why I did not know where to place this question). The stove is lined with firebricks, has a front loading door, and has a firebox around 3 cubic feet with a lined chimney.

After our last chimney cleaning, the guys told us we would go through far less wood if we updated the stove. They recommended a Regency cat wood stove.

As it stands, in an average MD winter, we burn 4 cords and keep the thermostat set at 55 degrees to help pick up any slack. The floors are original, the insulation is some newspaper and some upgraded Pink Panther stuff, and we just replaced all of the windows. To top it off, the house has been added to over the years, so the heat doesn't turn corners. The base of the house is 985 sq feet with the same upstairs.

After doing some research, we found good reviews on the Englander 30-NC stove (non-cat). It is a little larger at 3.5 cu ft but we have the room to accommodate it. (I want to stay away from the cat versions as we don't want the maintenance associated with it nor does it get that cold in MD to get the cat that hot that we won't be burned out of the living room.)

Englander Link: http://www.heatredefined.com/englander/stove/englander-1800-2200-sq.-ft.-wood-stove

Thoughts, opinions, experience on this is greatly appreciated !!!

begreen · Nov 2, 2016

Should get the job done. There are ma y happy owners here.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk

rijim · Nov 2, 2016

RSQJEEP said:
You all have a very informative, positive forum and I wanted to say thank you for all of the valuable information! I apologize if I put this in the wrong forum, but it kind of involves new and old stoves. Please move if need be.

Question at hand: do we replace the old 'inefficient' stove with a newer EPA approved non-cat stove?

House history: Our farmhouse was built in 1894 and has since been remodeled by many over the years. As our primary heat today, we burn hardwood (primarily oak) in the Birmingham Stove & Range 'Ponderosa" wood stove (we have no idea how old it is which is why I did not know where to place this question). The stove is lined with firebricks, has a front loading door, and has a firebox around 3 cubic feet with a lined chimney.

After our last chimney cleaning, the guys told us we would go through far less wood if we updated the stove. They recommended a Regency cat wood stove.

As it stands, in an average MD winter, we burn 4 cords and keep the thermostat set at 55 degrees to help pick up any slack. The floors are original, the insulation is some newspaper and some upgraded Pink Panther stuff, and we just replaced all of the windows. To top it off, the house has been added to over the years, so the heat doesn't turn corners. The base of the house is 985 sq feet with the same upstairs.

After doing some research, we found good reviews on the Englander 30-NC stove (non-cat). It is a little larger at 3.5 cu ft but we have the room to accommodate it. (I want to stay away from the cat versions as we don't want the maintenance associated with it nor does it get that cold in MD to get the cat that hot that we won't be burned out of the living room.)

Englander Link: http://www.heatredefined.com/englander/stove/englander-1800-2200-sq.-ft.-wood-stove

Thoughts, opinions, experience on this is greatly appreciated

Can’t comment on the Englander other than I have read many good posts here. The secondary burn on new stoves is amazing; you will see a definite reduction in your wood consumption to produce the same BTUs. The thing to be aware of is you will need well seasoned wood with the new stove to get a proper burn; that oak will need to season between 2-3 years to get moisture content down.
Jim

bholler · Nov 2, 2016

RSQJEEP said:
(I want to stay away from the cat versions as we don't want the maintenance associated with it nor does it get that cold in MD to get the cat that hot that we won't be burned out of the living room.

Well honestly cat stove will burn at low heat output much better than noncats. And there is not much more maintenance with them anymore they have come a long way. That being said there is nothing wrong with noncats but you need to better understand the differences between the two types before you can make a good decision.

jatoxico · Nov 2, 2016

CAT stoves excel at running lower temps, the so called low and slo', something tube stoves don't do as well. But, if you find you're running your current stove pretty hard to keep the old place warm enough then the benefit of a CAT stove would be somewhat diminished since a CAT stove will chew up wood more like a tube stove when being pushed in need of heat.

CountryBoy19 · Nov 3, 2016

jatoxico said:
CAT stoves excel at running lower temps, the so called low and slo', something tube stoves don't do as well. But, if you find you're running your current stove pretty hard to keep the old place warm enough then the benefit of a CAT stove would be somewhat diminished since a CAT stove will chew up wood more like a tube stove when being pushed in need of heat.

This ^^^

If you're going for really low, long-lasting head CAT stoves win, but if you're looking to run something pretty hard they don't really have much of an advantage.

That being said, regarding the Englander NC-30. Look at the install manual and make sure your existing hearth/stove location is going to permit the NC-30 before you decide on that one. The NC-30 has some pretty tough hearth & clearance requirements. Englander has a newer "smart stove" similar in size to the NC-30 that is actually a tad bit cheaper. The benefits of the new stove are #1 it's a smart-stove so you can set it to adjust the primary air down once it reaches temperature then it will do that automatically (you can theoretically set it and walk away and it will adjust itself down automatically), #2 The hearth requirement is non-combustible surface only (no specific R-value needed for the hearth) and it has some attractive clearance numbers. The best place to get this smart stove is to get it from Lowe's under the Summer's Heat brand (made by Englander exactly the same as the Englander branded one); the model you're looking for would be 50-SHSSW02. There is actually a thread here on the first or 2nd page about them. The 50-SHSSW01 (also known as the Englander Madison) is the same design but slightly smaller. You should look into them.

St. Coemgen · Nov 3, 2016

RSQJEEP said:
the insulation is some newspaper and some upgraded Pink Panther stuff, and we just replaced all of the windows. To top it off, the house has been added to over the years, so the heat doesn't turn corners.

Heated air can be pushed around corners. A ceiling fan is one method to move air, but it can be somewhat subtle in its effect. A door frame fan is a more direct idea. See:

http://woodheat.org/moving-heat-around-the-house.html

But if a room is not insulated well, then it may just be wasted effort (see the above link on that issue too).

kennyp2339 · Nov 3, 2016

If money is tight I would recommend the NC30, that thing is a beast, a good solid American made work horse!! I've installed and ran 2 and they have blown my socks off with reliability and ease of use, I personally run a cat stove, that's all I would ever own (there much easier to run and you get a longer / better output of heat imo) but if I was on a tight budget and looking for a new stove, NC30 would be my 1st pick

CountryBoy19 · Nov 3, 2016

kennyp2339 said:
If money is tight I would recommend the NC30, that thing is a beast, a good solid American made work horse!! I've installed and ran 2 and they have blown my socks off with reliability and ease of use, I personally run a cat stove, that's all I would ever own (there much easier to run and you get a longer / better output of heat imo) but if I was on a tight budget and looking for a new stove, NC30 would be my 1st pick

Keep in mind that the NC-30 requires a hearth with an R-value of 2 (IIRC), if his current hearth doesn't meet that the cost of redoing the hearth isn't small; choosing the newer Englander smart-stove will be much cheaper to meet hearth requirements.

SpAmSoNiTe · Nov 3, 2016

RSQJEEP said:
You all have a very informative, positive forum and I wanted to say thank you for all of the valuable information! I apologize if I put this in the wrong forum, but it kind of involves new and old stoves. Please move if need be.

Question at hand: do we replace the old 'inefficient' stove with a newer EPA approved non-cat stove?

House history: Our farmhouse was built in 1894 and has since been remodeled by many over the years. As our primary heat today, we burn hardwood (primarily oak) in the Birmingham Stove & Range 'Ponderosa" wood stove (we have no idea how old it is which is why I did not know where to place this question). The stove is lined with firebricks, has a front loading door, and has a firebox around 3 cubic feet with a lined chimney.

After our last chimney cleaning, the guys told us we would go through far less wood if we updated the stove. They recommended a Regency cat wood stove.

As it stands, in an average MD winter, we burn 4 cords and keep the thermostat set at 55 degrees to help pick up any slack. The floors are original, the insulation is some newspaper and some upgraded Pink Panther stuff, and we just replaced all of the windows. To top it off, the house has been added to over the years, so the heat doesn't turn corners. The base of the house is 985 sq feet

Thoughts, opinions, experience on this is greatly appreciated

I was asking myself similar questions about three years ago when I replaced the worn out Wondercoal and poorly build cinderblock/tile lined chimney with an nc-30 and class A.

My house is a roughly 1860-70's era farmhouse that has been added onto by just about every owner.. bottom is around 1000sqft with poor insulation..

I have personally gone through roughly the same amount of wood, but my house is much warmer, even on the coldest days two years ago(lows around -10 or 15). Before I would let my stove smoulder when I was gone 10+ hours at work and the furnace would kick in when it got real cold. I would also have a TON of glazed creosote and am surprised I didn't burn my house down! This season I got less than a cup out of my chimney system.

Sorry if this was long winded, but I hope it was helpful. Whole system was definatly worth the upgrade for me.

Sent from my SM-S820L using Tapatalk

RSQJEEP · Nov 3, 2016

How do I find out if my hearth can handle the stove? It physically fits, but not sure about the R Value.

Here is a picture of the current stove & hearth.

begreen · Nov 3, 2016

What is the construction? Are there two full courses of brick and then a 2" limestone top? If so, it's probably close. Brick is about R.45/layer and limestone is about .3 for 2".

The current hearth protection in front of the stove is inadequate. The new stove will need 16" in front of the door.

RSQJEEP · Nov 3, 2016

CountryBoy19 said:
This ^^^
If you're going for really low, long-lasting head CAT stoves win, but if you're looking to run something pretty hard they don't really have much of an advantage.

That being said, regarding the Englander NC-30. Look at the install manual and make sure your existing hearth/stove location is going to permit the NC-30 before you decide on that one. The NC-30 has some pretty tough hearth & clearance requirements. Englander has a newer "smart stove" similar in size to the NC-30 that is actually a tad bit cheaper. The benefits of the new stove are #1 it's a smart-stove so you can set it to adjust the primary air down once it reaches temperature then it will do that automatically (you can theoretically set it and walk away and it will adjust itself down automatically), #2 The hearth requirement is non-combustible surface only (no specific R-value needed for the hearth) and it has some attractive clearance numbers. The best place to get this smart stove is to get it from Lowe's under the Summer's Heat brand (made by Englander exactly the same as the Englander branded one); the model you're looking for would be 50-SHSSW02. There is actually a thread here on the first or 2nd page about them. The 50-SHSSW01 (also known as the Englander Madison) is the same design but slightly smaller. You should look into them.

So what is a smart stove? I have the room to put the 30-NC but am intrigued about the 50-SHSSW02 you recommended. I went to the instructions and Lowe's but they really didn't do anything to advertise this "smart" feature.

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Summers-Heat-2-400-sq-ft-Wood-Stove/999918850

RSQJEEP · Nov 3, 2016

begreen said:
What is the construction? Are there two full courses of brick and then a 2" limestone top? If so, it's probably close. Brick is about R.45/layer and limestone is about .3 for 2".

The current hearth protection in front of the stove is inadequate. The new stove will need 16" in front of the door.

Thanks for the help. Yes, you got it. It has 2 full courses of brick and a 2" limestone top.

Our space where the stove is now is 41.5" deep and 37.5" wide. Thanks again!

begreen · Nov 3, 2016

Download the manuals for guidance and clearances. The 30NC needs a 39"w x 52" deep hearth. The 50-SSW02 needs a 43" wide by 49" deep hearth. Your hearth looks wider than 37.5", are you measuring to the right edge past the chimney? For extra depth in front of the stove it looks like it may need a hearth extension board at floor level.

RSQJEEP · Nov 3, 2016

begreen said:
Download the manuals for guidance and clearances. The 30NC needs a 39"w x 52" deep hearth. The 50-SSW02 needs a 43" wide by 49" deep hearth. Your hearth looks wider than 37.5", are you measuring to the right edge past the chimney? For extra depth in front of the stove it looks like it may need a hearth extension board at floor level.

I'm measuring the smallest width, from the chimney to the edge of the stone. I didn't measure the area that the tools are on.

If I measure the entire width (from the left side where the stove is to the right where the tools are) it is 60" wide.

The area is L shaped due to the chimney on the right rear side of the stone. Also, behind the stove is all brick, floor to ceiling.

begreen · Nov 3, 2016

You'll have to tuck the stove closer to the chimney in order to satisfy the side clearances, but it should work with a simple extension at floor level.

chance04 · Nov 3, 2016

What part of MD you from?

CountryBoy19 · Nov 3, 2016

RSQJEEP said:
So what is a smart stove? I have the room to put the 30-NC but am intrigued about the 50-SHSSW02 you recommended. I went to the instructions and Lowe's but they really didn't do anything to advertise this "smart" feature.

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Summers-Heat-2-400-sq-ft-Wood-Stove/999918850

The "smart stove" really just means that it can adjust the air automatically after it gets up to temp.

Have you done much research on current EPA high efficiency stoves? They work more efficiently by some means of secondary combustion that burns up the volatile compounds that would normally leave the chimney as smoke (you can't even tell when they are burning because they put out so little smoke). This process works by leaving the primary air open until the stove is up to a high enough temperature that the secondary combustion process begins, then you throttle the primary air down to nearly completely closed and the secondary combustion process does all the work. The "smart stove" can be set so that you load the stove, light it, then walk away and when the stove is hot enough that the secondary combustion process begins it will automatically throttle down the primary air. Does that make sense?

Other advantages over the NC-30 are wider door (and door opening) which means easier loading, and it's a bit cheaper (yet still carries the same warranty and is made by the same folks).

ETA, here is one thread, the title is 50-TRSSW02 which is the Timber Ridge branded one but it's exactly the same as the Summer's Heat and Englander branded ones, as a matter of fact, notice the only changes from Summers Heat (SH) to the Timber Ridge (TR) is the replacement of the "SH" with "TR" in the part number. The SH and TR letters stand for which brand the stove is. https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/50-trssw02-large-smartstove-heats-up-to-2400-sq-ft.156305/

RSQJEEP · Nov 4, 2016

chance04 said:
What part of MD you from?

Near the bay bridge.

RSQJEEP · Nov 4, 2016

CountryBoy19 said:
The "smart stove" really just means that it can adjust the air automatically after it gets up to temp.

Have you done much research on current EPA high efficiency stoves? They work more efficiently by some means of secondary combustion that burns up the volatile compounds that would normally leave the chimney as smoke (you can't even tell when they are burning because they put out so little smoke). This process works by leaving the primary air open until the stove is up to a high enough temperature that the secondary combustion process begins, then you throttle the primary air down to nearly completely closed and the secondary combustion process does all the work. The "smart stove" can be set so that you load the stove, light it, then walk away and when the stove is hot enough that the secondary combustion process begins it will automatically throttle down the primary air. Does that make sense?

Other advantages over the NC-30 are wider door (and door opening) which means easier loading, and it's a bit cheaper (yet still carries the same warranty and is made by the same folks).

ETA, here is one thread, the title is 50-TRSSW02 which is the Timber Ridge branded one but it's exactly the same as the Summer's Heat and Englander branded ones, as a matter of fact, notice the only changes from Summers Heat (SH) to the Timber Ridge (TR) is the replacement of the "SH" with "TR" in the part number. The SH and TR letters stand for which brand the stove is. https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/50-trssw02-large-smartstove-heats-up-to-2400-sq-ft.156305/

Thanks for the explanation. I actually printed out the entire EPA list and whittled it down to the England brand and a couple of others, but they were more difficult to obtain. But no where has it explained the smart feature, if it is electronic, I think I'll stick to old fashion! lol

chance04 · Nov 4, 2016

What side of the ditch? I'm about 40 mins from the bridge on eastern shore. Denton

Old School · Nov 4, 2016

If there is nothing functionally wrong with your current stove other than the sweep saying you might save some wood I say keep it and burn on. The stove you have is a solid heat producing beast. You may very well spend significant money on a new stove with little benefit...just my .02.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

begreen · Nov 4, 2016

Old School said:
If there is nothing functionally wrong with your current stove other than the sweep saying you might save some wood I say keep it and burn on. The stove you have is a solid heat producing beast. You may very well spend significant money on a new stove with little benefit...just my .02.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It's a solid old beast that will probably sell peak season for $200. There's nothing wrong except being very inefficient. A 30+% wood savings per year or more is not trivial. Nor is the dramatic reduction in wood smoke emissions. And the old stove has no window for a great fire view.
The new stove will have a $300 EPA tax credit too.

Stevenmverrill · Nov 4, 2016

Hey from the edge of the hill people in frederick, in a late 1800's farm house with aditions...

on stoves: I don't know much. but I do know I pulled out a giant old stove and put in a small epa stove. the small/new stove makes close to the same heat with less in every aspect...

also if nothing else, for the simple novelty of making upside-down fire with out right side up fire is... well awsom. it's like Magic. lol

on air turning corners, and stuff:
MY house had central air added, and the stove is in the basement, of an addition. Conveniently the send air ducts are elevated in the ceiling, and the air mover is at a higher elevation then the basement. at times I can feel a cold draft coming down the stairs(returning). I have experimented with so many ways of manipulating the air flow throughout the house, and short of a fan blowing air down the stairs (small difference) found the natural convection to be the best way of Distributing Heat. that even inclues running the furnace fan. I still have extreme temperature differences (upper 80's to upper 60') from the basement addition with the stove to the upstairs bedrooms, in the separate original section. an unfortunate bulkhead in the Edition from the original House traps a good bit of the natural convection.( over 5 degree difference passing the Breezeway separating addition from original) bla bla this is getting way too long winded. what I'm saying is run experiments using thermometers and different ways of moving air, to scientifically figure out the best use of your stove. living space preferably used is also obviously a factor. experiment.

on a saving the old stove?
Its free, and you know how to use it. so, it's got that going for its self.

Old Stove vs New Stove

New Member

Mooderator

Feeling the Heat

Chimney sweep

Minister of Fire

Minister of Fire

Feeling the Heat

Minister of Fire

Minister of Fire

Member

New Member

Attachments

Mooderator

New Member

New Member

Mooderator

New Member

Mooderator

Burning Hunk

Minister of Fire

New Member

New Member

Burning Hunk

Burning Hunk

Mooderator

Member

Similar threads