Getting harrased by solar panel sales people due to my solar potential with aerial imaging. .

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B

Brian26

Minister of Fire
Sep 20, 2013
694
Branford, CT
They are ringing my doorbell at 9 am on a Saturday or Sunday. Relentless solar sales people stopping by and its getting annoying. Apparently they are using satellite aerial imaging to seek out to target the best homes for solar potential. Some of the most aggressive sales people I have ever encountered. They all want me to sign for a lease or PPA (Purchase Power Agreement). Any mention of what if I want to buy them outright they want nothing to do with it... It usually ends with them handing me a card and saying if you know someone that wants solar you will get 1k for a referral if they go with it. Anyone know what these sales people are making of an install?

While our solar potential is really good our electric bill just isn't enough to justify it from a cost. We are currently using around 500kwh a month. Here is google's solar analysis.

solar.JPG
 
What is no doubt pretty annoying is also a siren sound that you have a pretty good site for solar with quick payback. Even at only 500 kWh per month, you can likely buy your own solar PV system, go net-metered, and have it pay off pretty quickly in Connecticut's really expensive electricity market. With a 5 kW roof mount system at $3/watt or so (rough guess) owned outright, that is a $15k cost, you get 30% tax incentive, so only $10.5k (not counting state incenvites), and at 6000 kWh/year and 20 cents per kWh, you are saving $1200/year, or a payback in 9 years. Not too bad.

And if you have a solar PV system on your roof, the annoying salespeople will stop ringing your doorbell.
 
From what I can figure out, they get a nice commission and bonuses if they meet certain targets. Like any other sales effort if they contact enough people they will get some percentage of contacts as sales. I expect there may be some desperation in that many are worried that the new political structure in Washington may change the rules. The Koch funded efforts to change solar incentives in individual states is also probably of concern.to solar firms.

The reasons folks are pounding on the door trying to get non outright purchase deals is that's where the money is. Most installations are now "plug and play" and not very complicated. The firms buy the components in bulk and they can slap up a system in day with a relatively unskilled crew. If a company can effectively rent your roof they can tie into various incentives and possibly SRECs that generate long term revenue and tax write offs that are then packaged and sold to a hungry financial industry. Its highly likely that the firm you have contact with will not be around for long and even if they are they will have sold you contract to someone else.

That being said, the fundamental concept is not something you should brush off. If you are bit handy and capable of reading technical manuals you probably can design your own system. Granted you may not use a lot of power but that means you system doesn't have to be very big. If you have few minutes take a look at this website (don't worry its an educational institution) http://www.dsireusa.org/. Then look up the incentives for your specific area (I expect they are good as the salesman wouldn't be pounding on your door). Now search for a program called PV Watts on the web (again its non commercial) enter where you are and it will find a nearby location. Now enter some real basic information on the next page. It defaults on a pole array so change to roof mount and enter your roof angle in along with the direction the array would be facing. Once done have it calculate your yearly generation. I swagged milford CT and just changed to roof mount and it looks like a 5 KW system might be good fit as it puts out 6300 kwh per year.

The rule of thumb is usually $3 per installed watt if you pay someone to do the install soup to nuts. Realistically given current pricing and local competition you may be able to get it down to $2.50. Lets work with $3 a watt. It looks like CT offers a 0.513 cents per watt incentive http://www.energizect.com/your-home/solutions-list/residential-solar-investment-program so you are down to $2.48 a watt so your out of pocket cost is $12,400. There may be other incentives but I will let you go through the DSIRE database. The federal government has 30% net rebate tax credit which reduces your tax bill $1 for $1 of credit (its a credit not a deduction) so uncle sam kicks in $3,720 next April. so you are now at $8,680 installed cost for the system. There are DIY folks that by shopping the surplus market are getting down to $1 an installed watt after the federal rebate so the low end cost is possibly $5000. One solar supplier that I have dealt with in the past is ALTE store in Hudson Mass. They can price up an entire DIY system, they are going to use first line equipment so I would expect they might price out to around $1.5 (after fed rebate) a watt for all the pieces. CT also appears to have "ZREC" program which pays you for every MWhr of power you produce (1MWHh = 1000KWh). With a 5 KW system I guessed 6.35 MHhr per year. I am having a tough time figuring out how they price them but the rate might be quite high [possibly up to $300 MWhr) If that is the case you might get check for $1900 every year plus not pay for power as all you are only selling renewable attribute of the power. The utilities in the state have to buy these by law. Mass has similar program. In NH I only get about $40 an SREC but it covers my connection fee to the utility. Depending on the ZRECs you may pay off the system in three years. I expect the ZREC program may be why solar firms are pounding on your door as they can make bundle on them and most folks are clueless about them.

The other reason for solar is the utilities aren't paying for ZRECs out of their own pocket, they are adding a surcharge to your power bill to cover these costs meaning as more folks add solar your power bill goes up. We tell folks in Mass the choice is pay for your own solar or pay for your neighbors solar through surcharges on your power bill.

Looking at the aerial photo it looks like several other houses in your area might be good for solar. Ideally you could do a group buy where you buy in bulk and then either get together and DIY the installs and hire an electrician to do the actual panel work or just go out to bid to electrical firms for the multiple installs.
 
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Plus..if you buy a PV system in Ct. You'll piss off my brother..head of metering for one of the Ct utilities, and bearer of one of the most regressive point of view regarding solar I've ever encountered. He's always coming to me about the demerits of solar, chief of which it will lower the ROI of utility investors ( my heart bleeds for them, not) , that and the high voltage on the roof scares firefighters ( even though I point out to him microinverters work at line voltages, disconnect the line and you are at most 24 volts)

Just to make a point he lives under a high voltage line... nothing to do with solar..but just another way to toe the utility line. You know... solar PV is ugly, power lines are beautiful( I've nothing against HV lines, I'm with NREL, they re an effective way to move wind and solar energy to where you need it... )


For those of you who think the utilities are neutral, here's a clue,they're not. You are hitting them where it hurts... in their overstuffed pockets full of dividend cash.
 
I think I'd have some fun with them. Start trying to sell them stuff. See if they'll buy a 1/2 drank jug of milk from the fridge for $5. Ask them if they have enough life insurance. Let them know your cousin sells cars and give them a good deal. Do they like Mazda's? Do they have kids? Tell them stories about your brother's kids.... Be creative.
 
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EatenByLimestone said:
I think I'd have some fun with them. Start trying to sell them stuff. See if they'll buy a 1/2 drank jug of milk from the fridge for $5. Ask them if they have enough life insurance. Let them know your cousin sells cars and give them a good deal. Do they like Mazda's? Do they have kids? Tell them stories about your brother's kids.... Be creative.
Click to expand...



And ask them if they're saved
 
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peakbagger said:
From what I can figure out, they get a nice commission and bonuses if they meet certain targets. Like any other sales effort if they contact enough people they will get some percentage of contacts as sales. I expect there may be some desperation in that many are worried that the new political structure in Washington may change the rules. The Koch funded efforts to change solar incentives in individual states is also probably of concern.to solar firms.

The reasons folks are pounding on the door trying to get non outright purchase deals is that's where the money is. Most installations are now "plug and play" and not very complicated. The firms buy the components in bulk and they can slap up a system in day with a relatively unskilled crew. If a company can effectively rent your roof they can tie into various incentives and possibly SRECs that generate long term revenue and tax write offs that are then packaged and sold to a hungry financial industry. Its highly likely that the firm you have contact with will not be around for long and even if they are they will have sold you contract to someone else.

That being said, the fundamental concept is not something you should brush off. If you are bit handy and capable of reading technical manuals you probably can design your own system. Granted you may not use a lot of power but that means you system doesn't have to be very big. If you have few minutes take a look at this website (don't worry its an educational institution) http://www.dsireusa.org/. Then look up the incentives for your specific area (I expect they are good as the salesman wouldn't be pounding on your door). Now search for a program called PV Watts on the web (again its non commercial) enter where you are and it will find a nearby location. Now enter some real basic information on the next page. It defaults on a pole array so change to roof mount and enter your roof angle in along with the direction the array would be facing. Once done have it calculate your yearly generation. I swagged milford CT and just changed to roof mount and it looks like a 5 KW system might be good fit as it puts out 6300 kwh per year.

The rule of thumb is usually $3 per installed watt if you pay someone to do the install soup to nuts. Realistically given current pricing and local competition you may be able to get it down to $2.50. Lets work with $3 a watt. It looks like CT offers a 0.513 cents per watt incentive http://www.energizect.com/your-home/solutions-list/residential-solar-investment-program so you are down to $2.48 a watt so your out of pocket cost is $12,400. There may be other incentives but I will let you go through the DSIRE database. The federal government has 30% net rebate tax credit which reduces your tax bill $1 for $1 of credit (its a credit not a deduction) so uncle sam kicks in $3,720 next April. so you are now at $8,680 installed cost for the system. There are DIY folks that by shopping the surplus market are getting down to $1 an installed watt after the federal rebate so the low end cost is possibly $5000. One solar supplier that I have dealt with in the past is ALTE store in Hudson Mass. They can price up an entire DIY system, they are going to use first line equipment so I would expect they might price out to around $1.5 (after fed rebate) a watt for all the pieces. CT also appears to have "ZREC" program which pays you for every MWhr of power you produce (1MWHh = 1000KWh). With a 5 KW system I guessed 6.35 MHhr per year. I am having a tough time figuring out how they price them but the rate might be quite high [possibly up to $300 MWhr) If that is the case you might get check for $1900 every year plus not pay for power as all you are only selling renewable attribute of the power. The utilities in the state have to buy these by law. Mass has similar program. In NH I only get about $40 an SREC but it covers my connection fee to the utility. Depending on the ZRECs you may pay off the system in three years. I expect the ZREC program may be why solar firms are pounding on your door as they can make bundle on them and most folks are clueless about them.

The other reason for solar is the utilities aren't paying for ZRECs out of their own pocket, they are adding a surcharge to your power bill to cover these costs meaning as more folks add solar your power bill goes up. We tell folks in Mass the choice is pay for your own solar or pay for your neighbors solar through surcharges on your power bill.

Looking at the aerial photo it looks like several other houses in your area might be good for solar. Ideally you could do a group buy where you buy in bulk and then either get together and DIY the installs and hire an electrician to do the actual panel work or just go out to bid to electrical firms for the multiple installs.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the very informative and detailed post. This issue is I just don't have the outright cash to buy the panels. Wonder if there is a finance option. Even if it was a wash where my solar production canceled out the payment I would be happy knowing it's green energy and not going to the big utilities.

I would likely produce an insane amount of power. My house is perfect for solar. Facing south/southwest, brand new roof a few years old, no trees, etc.
 
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My thought reading your post was along the lines of what peakbagger said - if there's multiple salesmen approaching, it's because they perceive a big potential profit for them. In other words, there's a lot to be saved by buying outright from the best (not necessarily the lowest, although that's often case) of multiple bids from several installers.

You can probably finance a solar install using a home equity loan if you have sufficient home equity. If you're seriously interested, finding out the terms of your bank's home equity loans is probably the first place to start, and maybe also finding out what a couple other local banks or credit unions offer.
 
If the house can be enrolled in the ZREC program, the ZRECs cover the payments on a solar loan and its a very short term loan
 
One of them is probably my brother in law. If an older guy with a Tom Selleck 'stache shows up, give him a beer and tell him to beat it.
 
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Going to look into the loan option and the ZREC program. We have a ton of equity in the house as we bought it from my great uncle for cheap and put 30% cash down on it. Googles project sunroof are showing these numbers which are pretty impressive if accurate.

solar1.JPG
solar2.JPG
 
Brian26 said:
Going to look into the loan option and the ZREC program. We have a ton of equity in the house as we bought it from my great uncle for cheap and put 30% cash down on it. Googles project sunroof are showing these numbers which are pretty impressive if accurate.

View attachment 195294 View attachment 195295
Click to expand...
If the incentives make or break the deal I wouldn't buy in right now.
 
I think the federal rebate is pretty reliable as that's an front end payment. The state payment looks like the same. The ZRECs are another story as they appear to be an ongoing payment subject to political winds. I didn't look heavily into them but it looked to me that the state signs up a block of ZRECs for specific systems for a specific term and associated with that block is ceiling price on SRECs.

There is a push for CT to be able to count Canadian hydro in their REC program which would drive down the ZREC prices for future projects.

I do feel that some of the incentives programs like ZRECs are way overboard and need to be reigned in as the intent was originally to offset the extra cost for generating power with solar. It looks to me that the financial sector has figured out this big giveaway and are rushing to lock it in.

My theory is see if it makes sense with the front end payments and then regard ZRECs as gravy.
 
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peakbagger said:
I do feel that some of the incentives programs like ZRECs are way overboard and need to be reigned in as the intent was originally to offset the extra cost for generating power with solar. It looks to me that the financial sector has figured out this big giveaway and are rushing to lock it in.

My theory is see if it makes sense with the front end payments and then regard ZRECs as gravy.
Click to expand...

I expect the financial sector is building their renewable portfolio as a hedge against potential carbon taxes in the future. Talking to my dad yesterday, he said his electric bill last month was right around $100. Mine was $27. (same street in the same town) Solar does work. Even without REC's, I'll install solar on every property I own.

georgepds said:
For those of you who think the utilities are neutral, here's a clue, they're not. You are hitting them where it hurts... in their overstuffed pockets full of dividend cash.
Click to expand...
You a re definitely right. Electric grid customer base continues to expand in FL, yet the power companies donated millions toward a ballot referendum here last fall. If they didn't see solar as a threat, they would have simply passed those millions along to their shareholders as dividends and ignored the solar segment. My utility continues to add hundreds of acres a year into their own solar farms, so they can continue to be the middle man making a percentage on every kWh used. I keep waiting for the next power company bait-n-switch: I expect it will be an offer to buy energy produced from solar for a $0.02/kWh premium over fossil fuel energy.
 
Got appointments with a few companies to get some quotes and more information. I found the solarpower rocks website to very informative for those that haven't seen it. It ranks each state and breakdowns all the policies and incentives. We are still ranked quite high here in CT but wow to Massachusetts. If I lived there it would be a no brainier to install panels with that payback time and roi.

capture2.JPG
capture 3.JPG
 
How important is the roof angle with panels? I few sites say its very important. I have been messing around with the pv watts website but not sure what my roof angle is. Here is a google streetview shot of my house. Can anyone give me a rough estimate of me roof angle? My house is the one on the left.

Another thing I forgot to mention is that I had a deck built last year and had to move my electric service coming into the house. So I have a brand new line from the pole, outside disconnect with meter, and new 200 amp panel. It cost me around $2500 so I am guessing I probably don't have to worry about any electrical upgrades. I have read that some people have had unexpected expenses of having to upgrade their panel when getting panels installed.
Capture.JPG
 
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I wont guess but its pretty easy since you have siding. Measure the siding spacing and then count the number spaces from the lower corner of the front roof then multiply the number of spaces by the spacing, that gives you the height of the roof slope. Now figure out the horizontal distance from the peak to the front corner of the triangle. Next find a calculator with inverse tangent function.(or a website with trig functions). Now divide the height of the triangle by the width and you end up with decimal. Now push the inv tangent function (usually a combination of buttons) and that gives you the roof angle. The photo is distorted and but I would make a WAG and guess is 25 degrees?. If you have an attic hatch the best way is to measure the angle directly on the bottom of the rafter angle finders are cheap and most hardware and big box stores have them.

Now go to PV watts and punch in the angle you calculated and jot down the results, now repeat for plus or minus 5 degrees and that gets you a rough idea on error. Guessing a latitude of 41 degrees for CT, a 30 degree tilt angle means you are optimized for summer production so if you have high summer use its a good fit. One trade off with a shallow angle is that snow will take awhile to slide off after a snow storm and looking at the picture its not practical to get a roof rake up there. Probably not a big issue in CT.
 
Re "wow Massachusetts"

I agree. I've got 4.6 kW on the roof and another 3 kW going in Monday. My plan is to use the extra to heat the house



The ROI is ~20%. Roughly 50/50 srec/electric bill.
 
Brian26 said:
read that some people have had unexpected expenses of having to upgrade their panel
Click to expand...

I've heard it's the buss bar that's limiting, not empty fuse locations. Say you've got a hundred amp service with a hundred amp main. Add twenty amps from the PV panels. The buss bar could overload.
Looks like you have a 4/12 roof, just shy of 20 degrees pitch.
 
Re"Guessing a latitude of 41 degrees for CT, a 30 degree tilt angle means you are optimized for summer production so if you have high summer use its a good fit."

With net metering you should really optimize for annual production..


http://www.solarpaneltilt.com

"Use one of these formulas to find the best angle from the horizontal at which the panel should be tilted:

  • If your latitude is below 25°, use the latitude times 0.87.
  • If your latitude is between 25° and 50°, use the latitude, times 0.76, plus 3.1 degrees."
 
The Mass program is unsustainable but you might as well jump on it while you can. At some point the ratepayers who cant install renewables are going to revolt at the steep increase in overall electric cost. It happened in Germany and Spain, the incentives got too high and many financial firms cashed in and stuck the governments with costs they couldn't fund. Germany ramped down their incentives and Spain just dropped them despite long term contracts.
 
Circus said:
I've heard it's the buss bar that's limiting, not empty fuse locations. Say you've got a hundred amp service with a hundred amp main. Add twenty amps from the PV panels. The buss bar could overload.
Looks like you have a 4/12 roof, just shy of 20 degrees pitch.
Click to expand...


It is the bus bar... if you open the panel door there's a sticker that says the bus bar rating

G
 
peakbagger said:
The Mass program is unsustainable but you might as well jump on it while you can. At some point the ratepayers who cant install renewables are going to revolt at the steep increase in overall electric cost. It happened in Germany and Spain, the incentives got too high and many financial firms cashed in and stuck the governments with costs they couldn't fund. Germany ramped down their incentives and Spain just dropped them despite long term contracts.
Click to expand...


True.. but it will be a while.. solar is still a small part of the picture here..but maybe not

The Srec 2 program ends this year. The new rules are to address the issue you raise.

So far, Ma is honoring the srec1 rules, and following the srec2 rules for the reminder of this year
 
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