How many of you have heard this...

jetsam said:

I HATE that. I grew up with a woodworker. I can do it, but don't really enjoy it ... so now I see pretty wood and I have to put it aside to saw into boards or tabletops or whatever... which, if my brain was being honest with itself, I would already know wasn't going to happen.... so I have this lovely maple that was water damaged when it was alive and has spectacular graining, and this beautiful straight oak, and this big knotty oak crotch that is just the size for that new patio tabletop, and I am basically unable to process cedar for firewood at all....

It's an illness!

(Nice tables!)

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Thanks, they were my first attempt at end table. But I hear ya on the cedar. I have a couple of nice cedar logs drying out right now as well as a tulip popular log.

I love building furniture with lumber that was grown right on my farm, that I cut down. It's something that I find great pride in.

Have always enjoyed cutting and burning wood. At 58, its not as easy as it once was, but knowing it'll warm my older bones reliably, I'm still a wood burner. My wife likes the ease of our pellet insert/stove, but I am a wood guy.....espec when I score some free on the side of the road.

tjcole50 said:

Anyone gone from a 2x4 built home to a 2x6 r19 frame? Wonder how much wood use will cut down from the new construction. We also added a heatpump for 250$ seemed a no brainer there

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2x6 compared to 2x4 walls does reduce usage but building details make so much more difference. Most heat loss in a house is air leaks and if you substantially reduce them that's the best bang for the buck. When I had an energy audit done several years ago, all the money was spent on air sealing. They did spray foam in some areas but it was as much to get a tight air seal as it was to have a higher R value. If you are building a house or having one built the best thing to do is go around at night with foam gun and seal up all cracks the contractors left. The other thing to do is have the basement walls and more importantly the sills and the area above the sills foamed. I do have 2x6 walls but find that the studs really conduct a lot of heat. I now put a 1/2" layer of foil faced isoboard foam over the framing and drywall over it. It really cuts down on heat loss through the studs.
The thing I wish I did is put insulated sealed boxes for all the exterior wall outlets, there is lot of air that gets sucked in to the room via outlets.

I live way up in Northern NH and with a 1 ton minisplit for summer and shoulder seasons (down to about 20 F) I am down to about 3 to 3.5 cords a year. I haven't bought oilf for 5 years.

tjcole50 said:

Anyone gone from a 2x4 built home to a 2x6 r19 frame? Wonder how much wood use will cut down from the new construction. We also added a heatpump for 250$ seemed a no brainer there

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We did 2 x 8 r27 walls to meet structural and earthquake standards. Material costs were higher, however we built for $91 per square foot which was pretty cheap for its time.

Greg

begreen said:

Propane prices vary a lot with location. We were well over $4/gallon at that time. Now we're down a bit under $3. I haven't seen 89 cents a gallon here in the past 25 yrs.. IIRC it was around $.95 when we moved into this house back then.

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Not just location but vendor as well. Right now you might be at 3$ but I just filled up a 30# tank for 1.49$ per gallon. I can almost see your house from mine! I even bought one of those adapters to refill the little green coleman propane bottles for like 30 cents each! Our weber portable Q grill eats them up.

jetsam said:

I would not heat with wood if I wasn't able to process my own firewood. Not only does it stop making financial sense, but I lose the exercise and sense of connectedness that I get from CSS.

I probably get more out of it than most people (well, maybe not most of THIS crowd) because I've been doing it since I was tall enough to lug a hatchet, so I have a lot of early memories built around the fire.

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Take a look at the fuel cost calculator. I think you will find that you can pay quite a bit for firewood before it stops making financial sense. I had to buy logs from a logger for the first time this year and you can bet I compared the log price to cut/split price to the price for wood pellets to the price for electric heat. It is amazing how cheap firewood is when only considering the price of fuel.

It would cost me 50% more to heat with wood as compared to natural gas.

Just did the calc of how much gas I used last year and how much it cost. Then looked up what an equivalent amount of seasoned, delivered, split and stacked would cost and the wood would cost a lot more than the gas. Not to mention toting the stuff, loading, cleaning ash and disposing of same.

And that huge wood pile would make a great home for rats and spiders. Heat with wood? No thanks, but I do like the romance from time to time -

Processing firewood has become such a great hobby for me that I literally just laugh at anyone who tells me natural gas is better.

I get all my wood from Craigslist, and that alone is an adventure in itself. You never know what kind of goofy people's houses you're showing up to.

I haul with a company truck I don't pay fuel for, so my expense is keeping my saw and splitter going.

I definitely get it that it's not for everyone, and not everyone has time, energy or strength to scrounge and process their own wood, but for those who can, there is no argument.

I'm worn out from all the wood processing (particularly the stacking). If I didn't love wood heat, and need to burn to keep all of the deadfalls and felled trees cleaned up, I'd just turn up the thermostat. It's been a lot of work this year.

tjcole50 said:

i know im not alone..
Wood heat is the most expensive heat once you factor in your time...
little do some know we enjoy that time. Except for 2 years ago when I went hog wild getting 4-5 years ahead only to sell it all and leave two winters worth with the buyers of our home. Good lord those stacks were pretty...

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I don't think there's any way that any person with two brain cells to scratch together could ever justify burning wood for heat, from a PURELY financial perspective. There is always some form of work that will pay more, if you're willing to do it. But working for yourself, as processing wood or similar endeavors, provides a higher level of satisfaction than most other forms of work.

If you count the money I spent on stoves and wood processing equipment, and then compared it to the modest amount I'm saving per year by processing my own wood, I'd guess off-the-cuff that I have a 4 year ammortization:

Trailer: $4k
Tractor: $10k (upgrade from smaller model)
Chainsaws: $2k
Splitter: $2k
Two BK stoves: $6k
Repairing / lining two chimneys: $3k
==========
$27k

I burn mostly oak and ash, so assuming ~23 MBTU/cord, and an average of 6 cords per year in my new BK's, and similar efficiencies between my BK's and my old oil burner, I'm saving about 1020 gallons of oil per year. That was $3700 per year, when I bought the stoves, but has dropped now to $1730 per year today. So, I'm going to take more than 7 - 15 to amortize my start-up costs... hardly worth it.

One could argue the tractor, but at least part of the decision to upgrade the tractor was based on moving firewood, and I'd have probably been fine with my old one if not for it. Even with the tractor removed, we're looking at 5 - 10 years amortization.

Meanwhile, with my time, I could be doing contract work (which pays well, in my field). I could pay more attention to my investment portfolio, which would pay more, in the long run. But both of those jobs crush my soul, whereas splitting and burning wood seems to help it. I'm happy to pay the price, to have a stove going in my family room and my den, on any cold winter night.

Ashful said:

But both of those jobs crush my soul...

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Ashful, I honestly don't know how you do it. I'd be dead in a week if I made that trade.

I totally agree about the poor economic feasibility of wood burning wood if quality of life is deleted from the equation. That one factor alone eliminates all of the negatives because it's the only one that really matters.

Our tree trimmer just did the neighbor's Walnut and simply tossed everything over the fence onto our side where I made little chunks out of it with an electric chainsaw and an antique Boy Scout hatchet. So we're all set for this Winter, but only because our wood processing and consumption is on a toy scale compared to yours.


Greg

Ashful said:

Meanwhile, with my time, I could be doing contract work (which pays well, in my field). I could pay more attention to my investment portfolio, which would pay more, in the long run. But both of those jobs crush my soul, whereas splitting and burning wood seems to help it.

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I'm an investor also. I would do the math a little differently. Looking at the last 20 years of my wood-burning, my expenses look something like this:

Woodstoves: $300 (I'm not counting the new Blaze King because I haven't fired her up yet)
Chainsaws and expenses: $349 plus chains, fuel oil and $28 in replacement parts. But I would need a chainsaw for storm clean-up even if I didn't burn wood. I'm not counting the new MS 261 because my 026 works as good as new, just bought the 261 as a want, not a need.
Splitter: I think I spent $19 on a new handle for my maul once. I'm not counting the new Fiskars axe because I haven't burned any of the wood it split yet.
Truck: I would need a truck whether I burned wood or not (it pulls my wife's horse trailer amongst other tasks).

Wood heat has saved me a lot of money in the last 20 years. Once those savings have been re-invested, I would say I'm tens of thousands of dollars ahead of the game (and that's just the last 20 years). That doesn't count the gym memberships I didn't need to purchase.

But here is my real point: I think I'm a much better investor than if I sat on my ass and turned up the thermostat. Investing well requires a sort of "fuzzy logic" and investing really well requires a detachment from the invested funds. I think the independence of heating with wood (and the sweat equity that goes with it) enhances both of these traits that are required to invest most productively. Wood getting (and wood burning) enhances my clarity of mind and my resolve in a way that improves my investment decisions in a way that is impossible to calculate with a spreadsheet.

There is a lot of wisdom in an old tree and it has to go somewhere when it's burned, right?

RobbieB said:

It would cost me 50% more to heat with wood as compared to natural gas.

Just did the calc of how much gas I used last year and how much it cost. Then looked up what an equivalent amount of seasoned, delivered, split and stacked would cost and the wood would cost a lot more than the gas. Not to mention toting the stuff, loading, cleaning ash and disposing of same.

And that huge wood pile would make a great home for rats and spiders. Heat with wood? No thanks, but I do like the romance from time to time -

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That's a great way to skew the results in the direction you want. You might as well consider paying the firewood cutter to live at your house and load the stove for you too! Add that to the cost per cord and you really make that gas look good.

Unfortunately, NG is not available for me and many other folks. If I had NG I might just be burning in a gas stove, they're really pretty nice.

Highbeam said:

Unfortunately, NG is not available for me and many other folks. If I had NG I might just be burning in a gas stove, they're really pretty nice.

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We don't have natural gas available either so I installed an old used propane tank...

(it's the white ball on the left)



...and get it filled up twice a year. That old ball has history. It was made in Los Angeles out of a US Navy WWII surplus mine shell in 1954. The base is a truck rim cut in half and welded on.

We love propane. It's dirt cheap (only $40 a month) compared to using electricity to cook food, heat water, and dry clothes.


Greg

Squirrely said:

We don't have natural gas available either so I installed an old used propane tank...

(it's the white ball on the left)

View attachment 198716

...and get it filled up twice a year. That old ball has history. It was made in Los Angeles out of a US Navy WWII surplus mine shell in 1954. The base is a truck rim cut in half and welded on.

We love propane. It's dirt cheap (only $40 a month) compared to using electricity to cook food, heat water, and dry clothes.


Greg

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That is so cool, Greg. But here, propane is more expensive than oil. Even figuring a 90% efficiency propane burner against an 85% efficiency oil burner, oil comes in at $1.48/100kBTU and propane at $2.59/100kBTU.

"That's a great way to skew the results in the direction you want. You might as well consider paying the firewood cutter to live at your house and load the stove for you too! Add that to the cost per cord and you really make that gas look good."

Just trying to be real.

Natural gas is piped to the furnace and the water heater, it's a delivered and ready to use product. Of course I would want the wood delivered and ready to use also for a fair comparison no? I don't have pickup trucks or trailers or hydraulic splitters either. Not to mention I'm getting tired of that gas chainsaw too and going to buy an electric as I don't use it much.

And even then I would still have to carry the stuff inside and load it into the stove.

So yeah, I skewed it in "my reality" direction -

RobbieB said:

I don't have pickup trucks or trailers or hydraulic splitters either.

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You don't need a hydraulic splitter to heat your home with wood! Most people use this great little thing called a splitting axe or maul. Cheap and reliable.

Not to mention I'm getting tired of that gas chainsaw too and going to buy an electric as I don't use it much.

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What kind of gas chainsaw do you have?

Squirrely said:

We love propane. It's dirt cheap (only $40 a month) compared to using electricity to cook food, heat water, and dry clothes.

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Even with the low propane prices currently seen in the Pacific Northwest, electricity is a less expensive way to heat if you have the more advanced and efficient heat pumps with inverter technology. They can make 3-4 times the heat for the same amount of electricity compared to electric baseboard or electric radiant heat.

begreen said:

Depends on the wood. Not everything is straight-grained and knot free. Splitting elm or well seasoned madrona rounds with an axe or maul is an exercise in futility.

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I have to agree here, I hardest thing I ever split with a maul and a splitting wedge was a big sycamore I cut down. It was horrible, but I didn't have a hydraulic splitter at the time so I just beat away on it till I got it all split.

RobbieB said:

"That's a great way to skew the results in the direction you want. You might as well consider paying the firewood cutter to live at your house and load the stove for you too! Add that to the cost per cord and you really make that gas look good."

Just trying to be real.

Natural gas is piped to the furnace and the water heater, it's a delivered and ready to use product. Of course I would want the wood delivered and ready to use also for a fair comparison no? I don't have pickup trucks or trailers or hydraulic splitters either. Not to mention I'm getting tired of that gas chainsaw too and going to buy an electric as I don't use it much.

And even then I would still have to carry the stuff inside and load it into the stove.

So yeah, I skewed it in "my reality" direction -

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Oh no, I see what you did and why. When you enter that $ per cord figure into the fuel cost calculator you have to make some decisions. I propose you could take it farther to help your anti-wood feelings by including the cost for loading the stove and even annual sweepings. See, those costs are above and beyond what is required to simply turn up the thermostat.

Then there is me that for $ per cord I enter in my delivered log price to get a $ per btu, then I enter the market rate for C&S firewood, then compare to resistance electric which is our only other option currently installed.

Squirrely said:

We don't have natural gas available either so I installed an old used propane tank...

(it's the white ball on the left)



...and get it filled up twice a year. That old ball has history. It was made in Los Angeles out of a US Navy WWII surplus mine shell in 1954. The base is a truck rim cut in half and welded on.

We love propane. It's dirt cheap (only $40 a month) compared to using electricity to cook food, heat water, and dry clothes.

Click to expand...

Natural gas is cheap, propane is not. NG is also a regulated utility so prices are relatively constant. Propane is not. On a per btu basis, propane is much more expensive than even pellets. All current prices of course.

RobbieB said:

Not to mention I'm getting tired of that gas chainsaw too and going to buy an electric as I don't use it much.

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I have one of these little Makitas... and I use it a lot!

It's quiet and smooth and the powerful 14.5 Amp motor has a built in soft start feature that doesn't torque the saw when you pull the trigger.


Greg

WoodyIsGoody said:

Even with the low propane prices currently seen in the Pacific Northwest, electricity is a less expensive way to heat if you have the more advanced and efficient heat pumps with inverter technology. They can make 3-4 times the heat for the same amount of electricity compared to electric baseboard or electric radiant heat.

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Yeah, things are totally different down here.
Electricity is tiered and most everyone is well into tier 3 which is 31 cents per kWh. We don't use any propane for home heating, and just burn free wood in the stove. Propane is only for hot water, cooking, and drying laundry. Propane keeps us in tier 1 electricity which is 16 cents per kWh and averages $45 per month.

And yes, the new inverter mini splits are quite efficient. Mitsubishi's produce 8.6 btu's per watt, whereas conventional radiant heaters only produce only 3.4 btu's per watt.

Greg