How many of you have heard this...

This reminds me of an article I saw on Facebook the other day...

https://www.inverse.com/article/31438-tesla-solar-roof-price?utm_source=facebook.com

You did good, Robbie.
Solar is fine for people who use a lot of electricity.

Greg

Woody5506 said:

This reminds me of an article I saw on Facebook the other day...

https://www.inverse.com/article/31438-tesla-solar-roof-price?utm_source=facebook.com

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That's great! A solar tile roof that's cheaper than a tile roof. Plus, a solar roof can pay for itself, something that asphalt shingles, metal or clay tiles can never do!

But there will always be people who think solar is inferior to fossil fuels, or that it costs more. Or that you only need solar if you waste electricity. It makes no sense. People get old, grumpy, set in their ways, anti-enviro, anti politician, anti-feminist, anti truth, anti-growth and anti-life. Fortunately, I saw enough of that kind of thinking amongst old people when I was young and vowed (to myself) to never fall into that ugly trap.

RobbieB said:

I had a 3.6 kW (Sunpower, 11 panels) installed last year. I went top of the line, max efficiency as I have only 1 small roof area that doesn't get extensive shade. Seventeen grand, but 5 grand tax credit. Already upgraded AC to 15 SEER and all lights are now LED. My electric bill should be $200 (for the whole year) now as compared to 1500 before. System should pay for itself in less than 10 years. System was sized to 80% of usage.

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That's awesome!

As more and more people switch to fully electric cars, it is the distributed generation (local solar cells) that will prevent the main transmission lines from needing expensive upgrades. And since the cost of transmission is built into your electrical rates, you will be helping all rate payers save money (especially the ones who, for whatever reason, don't believe in solar).

WoodyIsGoody said:

That's great! A solar tile roof that's cheaper than a tile roof. Plus, a solar roof can pay for itself, something that asphalt shingles, metal or clay tiles can never do!

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Our clay tile roof has saved us a pile of fire insurance money over the years. We live in an extreme wildfire danger zone.

"The Stoffans' Northern California house survived the 2008 blaze, which destroyed 30 homes and 100 other structures as it charred 53 square miles west of Yosemite National Park.

But the family's annual insurance costs doubled this year to $5,100 even though it planted a 50-foot lawn buffer around the house and installed fire-resistant landscaping, said John Stoffan, who lives there with his wife, mother and, occasionally, a son. Despite those precautions, the property carries a high fire-risk rating because the Stoffans live in Mariposa, where the already significant wildfire danger has been heightened by four years of drought."

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-fire-insurance-20150909-story.html

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Greg

WoodyIsGoody said:

That's great! A solar tile roof that's cheaper than a tile roof. Plus, a solar roof can pay for itself, something that asphalt shingles, metal or clay tiles can never do!

But there will always be people who think solar is inferior to fossil fuels, or that it costs more. Or that you only need solar if you waste electricity. It makes no sense. People get old, grumpy, set in their ways, anti-enviro, anti politician, anti-feminist, anti truth, anti-growth and anti-life. Fortunately, I saw enough of that kind of thinking amongst old people when I was young and vowed (to myself) to never fall into that ugly trap.

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Just in case your comment was for me...

I'm all for residential solar systems...

...but you have to consume a large enough amount of electricity to make it economically feasible. We don't use enough so it's not a good deal for us, because we're not the average user.

We're environmentally conscious and own an extremely utility efficient home with cutting edge energy saving features. For example, our year round average monthly cost for electricity, gas, and water combined runs us only $125 per month.


Greg

Since the thread seems to have drifted to solar - Solar can make sense for any user, its all comes down to local incentives. Without incentives the payback is long especially if someone is borrowing money to install it. The easiest way to find out what incentives are go to this website and look at what incentives apply to your area http://www.dsireusa.org/. Its very important to find out how your utility and state treats your production as that also impacts how your system gets designed. If you look around the internet you can find free downloads of Solar Power your home for Dummies or pay a few bucks and get the newest edition. A very important thing is if you legally can DIY a system and if you have the capabilities and interest to do so. All three of my arrays installed over the years were designed and installed by myself using surplus panels that I got from companies that had gone out of business. My cost per installed watt is probably half of what a dealer would install. Microinverter systems are pretty much plug and play so hard core electrical skills aren't really needed (although installing the panels and hiring an electrician is an option). When I factor in free heat from my minisplit using surplus power production my latest system was well under 4 year payback.

If the local utilities have good net metering policies someone with a small electric power demand doesnt need a large system and depending on incentives their payback may still be good. Microinverter systems tend to be the best option as they are mostly modular so the upfront cost for a small system isn't as steep as with a central string inverter (once the system get larger microinverters cost more per watt compared to string inverters).

The problem to date with the Tesla roof tlles is they haven't published any technical information, thus its shear conjecture on the economics. If Tesla uses the Solar City model, they sell a complete package with creative financing included so comparing to a conventional system is not going to be easy and its going to be bilking the taxpayers by milking the federal rebate program by shifting roofing costs into solar costs. Every company who has tried solar roof tiles has failed as the fundamentals of multiple small wattage panels inherently means a lot more field labor and that currently is a big part of the cost of an install. The big plus is that its potentially a far better looking system albeit at a major price premium and potentially a good fit for folks in fire prone areas if the tile system gets the right ratings. They are claimed to be "lifetime roofs" but they haven't overcome the issue with degradation so at some point the PVs will have far lower output. When they inevitably get torn off, recycling will be difficult, clay tiles can be turned into more clay tiles and asphalt shingles get turned into pavement. A composite roof tile is going to be far more complex to recycle as it has mix of components.

I expect if they get into production (the intended factory in NY was effectively abandoned after millions in state incentives and handed over to Panasonic) , they will have the "snob appeal market" but doubt they will penetrate the typical hearth.com reader market.

I was excited about the tesla tiles at first, but it sounds like I could get similar output from traditional PV, and I can get the traditional PV plus all the gear and a battery bank for about the same price as just the tesla tiles themselves. (May get a Tesla battery for the old PV cells, though.)

I'm disappointed and worried that they even engineered a product whose main selling point is cosmetics, even if it is also durable and functional. I hope that doesn't become a trend for them. (Stuff that works great and is way too expensive already was a trend for them, so I can't complain about that one.)

peakbagger said:

The problem to date with the Tesla roof tlles is they haven't published any technical information, thus its shear conjecture on the economics. If Tesla uses the Solar City model, they sell a complete package with creative financing included so comparing to a conventional system is not going to be easy and its going to be bilking the taxpayers by milking the federal rebate program by shifting roofing costs into solar costs.

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Half of what is wrong with politics these days, is states lining up at the federal cashpot for their specific state incentives. Whether it be farming, industry, oil, coal, wind/solar, housing, welfare, education, emergencies.....ect. Guess what the federal government gets in return? Power over how the states senate and congress vote. Don't vote the way they want...no fed subsidies for your state and a short term for you in your local government position for your lack of "job creation". It is a scam and states need to buck up and live on their own.
Rant over.

RobbieB said:

I had a 3.6 kW (Sunpower, 11 panels) installed last year. I went top of the line, max efficiency as I have only 1 small roof area that doesn't get extensive shade. Seventeen grand, but 5 grand tax credit. Already upgraded AC to 15 SEER and all lights are now LED. My electric bill should be $200 (for the whole year) now as compared to 1500 before. System should pay for itself in less than 10 years. System was sized to 80% of usage.

Yes, electricity in CA is expensive.

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10 years?!? Holy chit! Even just blindly putting that money into a major stock index fund could have turned that $17k into a modest $35k in that time, and a savvy investor could have doubled that. Heck, you could have turned that money into $24k in just the six months since Obama left us, not even knowing what you're really doing.

Again: You're hoping to just BREAK EVEN in 10 YEARS???? Will you be in the house long enough to double your money on this investment? Will the equipment last that long, without requiring repairs or upgrades?

Ashful said:

10 years?!? Holy chit! Even just blindly putting that money into a major stock index fund could have turned that $17k into a modest $35k in that time, and a savvy investor could have doubled that.

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He said break even was in LESS than 10 years. And that analysis necessarily includes assumptions regarding the future price of electricity. If electricity bills go up, break-even point happens sooner. As a life long investor I know that good investing requires diversification. Even though the performance of the SP500 has historically out paced other investments like real estate, gold, T-bills and bonds, that's not a good reason to own only SP500 and there is never any guarantee that it will be worth more in 10 years than a simple T-bill. Diversification is smart and solar cells are good diversification even if they are not as sexy as the latest tech or bio-pharm stock. Yes, you might double your money or more. I know people who lost everything. Solar cells carry less risk and can be an important tool to build wealth through life.

Investing in solar cells is good diversification and can help mitigate the risks that higher future electrical costs would impose on a homeowner's future budget. Less than 10 year payback with minimal risk is a good thing, especially considering that current photovoltaics can easily be putting out 85% of their new capability after 50 years. After break even, that is good cash flow.

No savvy investor owns only stocks, wise investors diversify. And in the game of life, 10 years is nothing. It's the blink of an eye and will happen faster than you can imagine. After that, free money every month.

As I said, I went "top of the line" Sunpower. You get no discount on this stuff and you have to buy from their dealer/installers. I "one bid" the job because they had the highest performance. The cost is like 2X what you can do with distributor panels, racks and inverters. The whole array is less than 200 sq-ft;



I have lots of other investments and plenty of dough, don't worry about me -

sportbikerider78 said:

Half of what is wrong with politics these days, is states lining up at the federal cashpot for their specific state incentives. Whether it be farming, industry, oil, coal, wind/solar, housing, welfare, education, emergencies.....ect. Guess what the federal government gets in return? Power over how the states senate and congress vote. Don't vote the way they want...no fed subsidies for your state and a short term for you in your local government position for your lack of "job creation". It is a scam and states need to buck up and live on their own.
Rant over.

Click to expand...

Hey, you know that sounds like it just might possibly be similar to an entangled relationship of solar users to their government and their electric utility where "free" incentives are offered in exchange for smart meter control. That would bother me, but that's purely a personal proclivity. I'm sure it's a far better deal for others or they wouldn't have been willing to take the "free" incentives offered.

Just heard today PG&E is giving away "free" smart theromstats. Just sign up and they'll come out to your home and install it for "free". Their smart thermostats monitor your energy usage while allowing them to override your control over the temprature settings.

They give you a "free" incentive... and in exchange you give them the power to control you.

Greg

RobbieB said:

As I said, I went "top of the line" Sunpower. You get no discount on this stuff and you have to buy from their dealer/installers. I "one bid" the job because they had the highest performance. The cost is like 2X what you can do with distributor panels, racks and inverters. The whole array is less than 200 sq-ft;

View attachment 198788

I have lots of other investments and plenty of dough, don't worry about me -

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Sunpower does have excellent reviews, so if someone was going solar they're a good choice.

Greg

Squirrely said:

Hey, you know that sounds like it just might possibly be similar to an entangled relationship of solar users to their government and their electric utility where "free" incentives are offered in exchange for smart meter control. That would bother me, but that's purely a personal proclivity. I'm sure it's a far better deal for others or they wouldn't have been willing to take the "free" incentives offered.

Just heard today PG&E is giving away "free" smart theromstats. Just sign up and they'll come out to your home and install it for "free". Their smart thermostats monitor your energy usage while allowing them to override your control over the temprature settings.

They give you a "free" incentive... and in exchange you give them the power to control you.

Click to expand...

To be fair, they don't control "you" just your air conditioner. Here's what I learned about the voluntary program:

Here's how the program works - In the summer, hundreds of thousands of air conditioners (AC) operating at the same time can sometimes push California's electrical system beyond capacity. These circumstances could result in a power interruption due to a state or local energy supply emergency. If this happens, an event will be called and the SmartAC program will cycle participating air conditioners during these occasional peaks to help prevent power interruptions.


When the system is activated, the temperature in your business will never be raised more than four degrees.* Because it's automatic, you don't have to do anything and most customers don't even notice when it happens. The best part is if an event is called at an inconvenient time, you can decline to participate for the day, without penalty.

Sounds like this program offers real benefits (by avoiding power interruptions). Of course as distributed solar becomes more and more popular, there will be enough electricity to handle peak loads and the program won't be needed. Also, roof mounted solar panels reduce attic temperatures as well as cooling load so it's a win-win.

RobbieB said:

As I said, I went "top of the line" Sunpower. You get no discount on this stuff and you have to buy from their dealer/installers. I "one bid" the job because they had the highest performance. The cost is like 2X what you can do with distributor panels, racks and inverters. The whole array is less than 200 sq-ft;

View attachment 198788

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That's pretty cool. Does your electrical meter run backwards when the sun shines? Ka-ching!

Yes it does. Unless the AC is running of course. AC uses about 4 kW.

But I also have a whole house attic fan that I run all night long in the summer. Unless we get the dreaded high pressure "ridge" that keeps the sea breezes out it cools down to ~65 degrees at night. All night long I pull that cool air through the house and then turn it off in the morning and shut the windows. The cool will last into the afternoon reducing my need for AC.

So yeah, I power the grid in the morning and early afternoon and then suck it back when it gets hot and the sun goes down. I'm still a net user of utility power just much less than before. Because I use more than I generate I get a full credit on my grid connect fee. You really don't want to be a net generator of power here, they pay you the 3 cent / kWH wholesale rate and you don't get the connect credit back either.

RobbieB said:

Because I use more than I generate I get a full credit on my grid connect fee. You really don't want to be a net generator of power here, they pay you the 3 cent / kWH wholesale rate and you don't get the connect credit back either.

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That's odd...it seems like net generators should be able to charge the utility for their connection to your solar cells!

Maybe it's time to lobby the regulators!

WoodyIsGoody said:

That's odd...it seems like net generators should be able to charge the utility for their connection to your solar cells!

Maybe it's time to lobby the regulators!

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To be fair, they don't regulate "you" just your solar system.

The utilities lobby the government in order to make certain the playing field always tilts in their favor.

Did you actually believe you would get paid for the excess energy you produce? I did too!

I had gone to the utility's contractor seminar in preparation for becoming a licensed solar system installer, and left with a bad taste in my mouth. The "free" government incentives are built into the price of the system so that the installer and material supplier get the kickback and not the solar purchaser.

The "free" incentive barb on the fishhook is the belief of getting something for nothing that catches the fish. It's a rigged system so I chose not to participate in it.

That being said, I still have no problem with other people getting solar systems because that's their own free choice as Americans.

Greg

RobbieB said:

I'm still a net user of utility power just much less than before. Because I use more than I generate I get a full credit on my grid connect fee. You really don't want to be a net generator of power here, they pay you the 3 cent / kWH wholesale rate and you don't get the connect credit back either.

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That's the catch22.

I go to the local Home Depot in town for materials about three times a week, and there is always a solar booth there with at least one sales person. I ask myself, who pays them to stand around there trying to collar people all day every day? We constantly get solar sales cold calls on the telephone. Why? Why so much hard sell? Why so many shills? Why the need for a shell game?

If solar was a stand alone fair deal directly between buyer and seller with no third parties feeding off of the transaction, people would flock to it without the need for any "free" government incentives. But there is an incestuous relationship between solar manufacturers, solar installers,electric utilities, and government...

...and someone has to pay for it who doesn't know they're paying for it.

Greg

Michael Sean said:

I have to agree here, I hardest thing I ever split with a maul and a splitting wedge was a big sycamore I cut down. It was horrible, but I didn't have a hydraulic splitter at the time so I just beat away on it till I got it all split.

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I split sycamore with a hydraulic splitter last year, and that was even a pain in the a$$. It doesn't want to open up. It basically just absorbs the wedge of the splitter. I can't imagine doing it by hand. I'd much rather spend a day splitting elm, not that that is all that much fun either.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Ashful said:

I've split both, side by side, albeit with a hydraulic splitter. The elm was FAR more difficult than the sycamore, not even a close comparison, when using hydraulics. I can see how sycamore might be tough with a maul, but it doesn't have nearly the stringy-mess quality of split elm.

This photo of elm has been posted many times by Jags, and it usually goes about the same for me. Our local Sycamore is easy as pine, by comparison to this.

View attachment 198773

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With a hydraulic, elm is a mess to split, but I would still prefer it over sycamore. In my experience you have to tear the splits apart with elm, which is a whole new gym exercise. But with the sycamore I've dealt with, it's like a sponge to the wedge, and all the while I am hoping a hydraulic line doesn't burst. And then I have to flip the piece 180* to get through it completely.

Since I have gotten a kinetic splitter, I have split elm several times, including a load this evening. It goes right through; not like a hot knife through butter, but like a room temperature knife through butter. You get a fully split piece that is not all stringy and doesn't need to be fought with to be torn apart. I would attribute this to the sharp, narrow wedge and the speed of the kinetic splitter. I haven't yet split any sycamore with it. Maybe I should go looking for some. [emoji848]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

WoodyIsGoody said:

That's great! A solar tile roof that's cheaper than a tile roof. Plus, a solar roof can pay for itself, something that asphalt shingles, metal or clay tiles can never do!

But there will always be people who think solar is inferior to fossil fuels, or that it costs more. Or that you only need solar if you waste electricity. It makes no sense. People get old, grumpy, set in their ways, anti-enviro, anti politician, anti-feminist, anti truth, anti-growth and anti-life. Fortunately, I saw enough of that kind of thinking amongst old people when I was young and vowed (to myself) to never fall into that ugly trap.

Click to expand...

So are you saying you are "anti-anti"? [emoji848]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

begreen said:

No cash back rebates or net metering?

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I wasn't sure if you were addressing me. So In case you were, the answer is no...

...no solar no cash back rebates no net metering no smart meter.

Electricity is easy, all of our household lighting is LED, and all of the hot appliances (hot water heater, clothes dryer and cook stove) are propane which is dirt cheap compared to electricity. No AC, no heat pump, no mini splits. Free wood is the only house heat.

The ~real~ problem here is water. California is in a severe drought and water bills are sky high killers. Our neighbor's water bill runs over $800 per month in the Summer.

We have a small garden, 30 fruit and nut trees, and 15 grape vines which need irrigating...



...so I designed a waste water treatment plant which automatically composts all of the raw sewage from our house, reclaims every drop of water from it and pumps it into a storage tank from which we irrigate our trees and vines. It has saved us thousands of dollars on our water bill. I installed the system in April 2015 and have paid the minimum $40 per month ever since.



This is where all of the raw sewage from our house goes. It's aerated just like municipal sewage treatment plants do. The riser is left open with a safety grid over it because there's no smell.



This is where the water is settled and filtered so I turned it into a water garden. The hair like root systems of the Water Hyacinths extract nutrients from the water while clarifying it and the filter keeps any debris in the tank where it belongs.



If you look closely at the leaf just below the white filter cap you can see a Pacific Tree Frog on it. A few of them went down there from the batch of wogs that hatched in our pond. They live on the mosquitoes that fly in. This is the storage tank...



The stainless pump pressurizes the water so we can use a hose. I also installed a hand pump in the back yard.





I also designed a toilet sink where the water gets used three times.



Once to wash your hands, again to flush the toilet, and a third time to irrigate the trees and vines.


Greg