Cost vs. Value

Brentwood · Feb 18, 2018

I've been using a steel Fisher Papa Bear for most of my home's heat since 1990. I do have a small boiler that I use to heat my kitchen floor and a couple of radiators when I'm going to be gone more than 8 or 10 hours, but on days when I'm home, about two-thirds of the time, the wood stove's our only heat source. It was installed in the house in between 1980 1982, and it was built in 09/79, according to the plate on the back. It works well, but it's all I've used. I wonder how much I'd benefit from a newer stove, especially in improved efficiency.

I'm looking at stove prices and descriptions of stoves from Drolet and Vogelzang at Menards and Northern Tool that get good reviews on this site. The Quadrafire stoves at the local store are two to three times the price, and I'm not sure I see the value. They advertise their Automatic Combustion Control and Four-Point Burn System, but their videos describing these features make me wonder whether they're really useful features or just clever marketing gimmicks. The programmable wall thermostat seems like a neat gadget, and I love gadgets, but it's not going to stoke the stove for me, and I have to wonder how useful it would really be.

I'd like to hear something I don't already know about any of these stoves. I'm interested in the relatively larger stoves. I'm not against spending $2500 to $3500 on a stove, but if I can get 80-90% of the utility from a $1000 stove, I'd probably go with the less expensive option.

Menards wood stoves: https://goo.gl/32wMZ9
Northern Tool wood stoves: https://goo.gl/6eA26t
Quadrafire wood stoves: https://goo.gl/4XaZdF

Some of the models that seem appropriate for my application are the Vogelzang Ponderosa, the Drolet HT2000, and the Quadrafire Adventure II and III. I've read plenty of reviews of these stoves, and I'm sure any of them would be great. I also assume that they'd be an improvement over what I'm using, but please correct me if I'm wrong about that! What I'm really wondering is whether I'd find the extra features of the Quadrafire worth their cost. I don't know if that's something someone can tell me or not, and I realize there's probably not a simple answer, but that's the question I'm asking.

Thanks in advance!

Brent
Southern Minnesota

begreen · Feb 18, 2018

If it's value you are after, the Drolet offers a good value. It's solidly built and a good performer. The stove has been around long enough to have established a good track record. The other stoves have not. The Performer is a Chinese made stove that so far is doing well, but it's unknown how it will stand up over time or whether parts remain available. The Adventure is a cool design. What you a mostly paying for is computer controlled thermostatic design. We've received too few reports to know how this works in a variety of homes and climates. Quad has a history of making good stoves so the basics of the stove should perform well. If the computer regulation provides even heat and a longer burn at a variety of outside temps, then it could be a winner.

Tar12 · Feb 18, 2018

You would benefit a great deal..from the latest technology...having said that I would not be the least bit interested in anything that required a computer to run it...who you going to call at 3 am with a polar vortex breathing down your neck? I realize you have a back up but...I do not like the introduction of anything computer related into a wood burning appliance...the K.I.S.S. principle has worked for a very long trouble free time. If it twas me in your situation I would be looking at a larger cat stove considering you are already running a large stove...so I am to assume you are heating a large house?...the cat stove has several advantages over your old Fisher...cleaner burning,longer burn times and less time spent CSS firewood.

jetsam · Feb 19, 2018

Sometimes newer really is better. With woodstoves, definitely so. There are good ones and bad ones out there, but this is a great place to learn the difference.

Crosscut saws work fine, but I prefer a chainsaw. Same for the stove... the old ones work, but not anywhere near as well, and definitely not in my house.

Easy Livin’ 3000 · Feb 19, 2018

Brentwood said:
I've been using a steel Fisher Papa Bear for most of my home's heat since 1990. I do have a small boiler that I use to heat my kitchen floor and a couple of radiators when I'm going to be gone more than 8 or 10 hours, but on days when I'm home, about two-thirds of the time, the wood stove's our only heat source. It was installed in the house in between 1980 1982, and it was built in 09/79, according to the plate on the back. It works well, but it's all I've used. I wonder how much I'd benefit from a newer stove, especially in improved efficiency.

I'm looking at stove prices and descriptions of stoves from Drolet and Vogelzang at Menards and Northern Tool that get good reviews on this site. The Quadrafire stoves at the local store are two to three times the price, and I'm not sure I see the value. They advertise their Automatic Combustion Control and Four-Point Burn System, but their videos describing these features make me wonder whether they're really useful features or just clever marketing gimmicks. The programmable wall thermostat seems like a neat gadget, and I love gadgets, but it's not going to stoke the stove for me, and I have to wonder how useful it would really be.

I'd like to hear something I don't already know about any of these stoves. I'm interested in the relatively larger stoves. I'm not against spending $2500 to $3500 on a stove, but if I can get 80-90% of the utility from a $1000 stove, I'd probably go with the less expensive option.

Menards wood stoves: https://goo.gl/32wMZ9
Northern Tool wood stoves: https://goo.gl/6eA26t
Quadrafire wood stoves: https://goo.gl/4XaZdF

Some of the models that seem appropriate for my application are the Vogelzang Ponderosa, the Drolet HT2000, and the Quadrafire Adventure II and III. I've read plenty of reviews of these stoves, and I'm sure any of them would be great. I also assume that they'd be an improvement over what I'm using, but please correct me if I'm wrong about that! What I'm really wondering is whether I'd find the extra features of the Quadrafire worth their cost. I don't know if that's something someone can tell me or not, and I realize there's probably not a simple answer, but that's the question I'm asking.

Thanks in advance!

Brent
Southern Minnesota

I suspect that much of the price difference is dealer profit margin. I won't give a number, but I doubt you are far from the truth when it comes to the comparable utility. They get hot burning wood, and today they all have to pass an efficiency test that results in cleaner, more efficient burning.

Just like cars, if you pick the right cheap one, it'll still get you from A to B, for many miles, just like a luxury car.

allan5oh · Feb 19, 2018

If you're looking at pure value the wood pro stoves are pretty good, definitely cheap. They were on sale for $500 or so a while back. They're a bit prone to smoke spillage and are more sensitive to draft than the usual stove. The firebox is tiny too, 1.1 cu ft actual measurement. Two medium sized pieces EW and that's it.

begreen · Feb 19, 2018

Value is subjective. For one person a good looking stove might have highest value. For another longest burn time and for another sheer heat output. For me, simplicity, durability, ease of use are high value features. For my wife, it is looks first. Fortunately there are options that satisfy both our values.

Easy Livin’ 3000 · Feb 19, 2018

begreen said:
Value is subjective. For one person a good looking stove might have highest value. For another longest burn time and for another sheer heat output. For me, simplicity, durability, ease of use are high value features. For my wife, it is looks first. Fortunately there are options that satisfy both our values.

I guess I have been very fortunate in life to have stumbled across a woman who values ease of use and durability over good looks.

begreen · Feb 19, 2018

Fortunately there are choices on the market that satisfy all 3 values.

Highbeam · Feb 19, 2018

ED 3000 said:
I suspect that much of the price difference is dealer profit margin. I won't give a number, but I doubt you are far from the truth when it comes to the comparable utility. They get hot burning wood, and today they all have to pass an efficiency test that results in cleaner, more efficient burning.

Just like cars, if you pick the right cheap one, it'll still get you from A to B, for many miles, just like a luxury car.

Be careful not to correlate high efficiency with low emissions. They are not related. Some very clean burning stoves like my cheap nc30 are horribly inefficient and some very efficient stoves like my princess are actually quite dirty.

Also, not all stoves are tested for efficiency. Just emissions.

kennyp2339 · Feb 19, 2018

What kind of square footage are you heating, is the house an open concept or closed off with many rooms, how tall are the ceilings, what kind of chimney do you have and size of chimney (length & width) how many cords a year are you going through?
I ask these questions because many new stoves 3cuft and under only require a 6" chimney, if your current setup is terminating into an existing masonry chimney you will want to make sure its the right size and not to large or you'll have problems with sluggish draft, not a lot of heat output from the stove, and creosote build up, if this chimney is masonry there are options like installing a stainless steal liner, insulated being the best option and necessary if your chimney doesn't have the proper clearances from combustibles.
The size of the home and layout is important because there are many great radiant stoves, and many great convective stoves out there, both serve there specific purposes very well, lastly, ceiling height and insulation. You saying that your from Minnesota means that your use to getting abused by mother nature and old man winter, but different stove sizes for different cases, a 1500sq ft house with vaulted ceilings and 2x4 cons, older windows may need the fire power of a stove that may heat a 2500-3000 sqft house, same with a larger home with very tight cons, high r-value insulation in the attic, new windows and low ceilings may need the average 2 - 2.5 cuft fire box stove.
Wood consumption is also good to know, do you go through 8 cords a year and split it all during the summer for use that winter, or do you have a good supply and let the wood season for a minimum of 2 years?
As you can see there are many variables.

cahaak · Feb 19, 2018

I'm running Drolet Myriad that I bought from Menards. It was around $600 after sale and 11% rebate and so on. I like the stove very well, will need some mods for next year as I can't close down the air quite as much as I need to. I think you're going to get the best value from a big box place like this. Can also get the Englander ones at HD and Lowes I believe and they are simple quality stoves also. There is also Fleet Farm to consider. I'm also in MN and I think you can get a very good stove for under $800 if you can wait until they are on sale. Is it a great stove - maybe not, but it would be 90-95% of the way to great and very servicable.

jwfirebird · Feb 19, 2018

value for a stove that is reliable and heavy built enough to use all the time is why i choose the summers heat, its not the most efficient but its probably one of the heaviest that i looked at, and that what you want if you are going to use it every day. simple and i can use i when the power is off. its got a big fire box and sits higher so its easier to see whats going on and load. englander has probably the best reviews and proven reliability too

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Summers-Heat-2400-sq-ft-Wood-Burning-Stove/999918850
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads...er-using-it-a-few-months.166997/#post-2239884

kennyp2339 · Feb 19, 2018

jwfirebird said:
value for a stove that is reliable and heavy built enough to use all the time is why i choose the summers heat, its not the most efficient but its probably one of the heaviest that i looked at, and that what you want if you are going to use it every day. simple and i can use i when the power is off. its got a big fire box and sits higher so its easier to see whats going on and load. englander has probably the best reviews and proven reliability too

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Summers-Heat-2400-sq-ft-Wood-Burning-Stove/999918850
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads...er-using-it-a-few-months.166997/#post-2239884

I think some summer-heat 2400sq has a bad door casting issue, I don't know if it was addressed yet by lowes company, apparently Englander sent out a bad batch, the door gaskets would not line up to the stove body and left a large air gap. Homedepot models NC30 were no affected and remain solid as a Sherman tank.
The really nice things about the NC30 is that you load N.S. and they can take about a 20" log length, you can easily boil water on the stove top and there easy breathing stoves, meaning a weaker draft doesn't really affect them, but a strong draft can make them nuclear, the work around is to use a large magnet and block some of the secondary intake, it works well for those that have tried it.

Easy Livin’ 3000 · Feb 19, 2018

Highbeam said:
Be careful not to correlate high efficiency with low emissions. They are not related. Some very clean burning stoves like my cheap nc30 are horribly inefficient and some very efficient stoves like my princess are actually quite dirty.

Also, not all stoves are tested for efficiency. Just emissions.

Interesting thoughts.

I think the tax credit that was available on new stoves until this year required a certain percentage level of efficiency. I know exactly what you are describing, because I know my stove is like your 30, and lots of heat goes up the stack. I have a feeling the term efficiency means one thing in the regulatory testing context, and another thing in the context of how much heat you keep in the house.

jwfirebird · Feb 20, 2018

i had the leak but all it took is fluffing the gasket, i used it everyday from oct or so till a couple weeks ago. was fine then looked like it was starting to get orange flames again. i looked at the manual and it said to put a gasket on every year so i did. back to normal. the gasket says 3/4 in the manual but the rutland one i got was oval and the wide way didnt fit but i rtved it the narrow way and appears to work. was only 15 for the gasket and rtv from amazon. home depot has one that says for englander but doesnt saysize price and its twice as much

Brentwood · Feb 20, 2018

I really appreciate all the replies. begreen is right about value being subjective. I don't like wood floors that aren't solid lumber. I think plastic decking looks awful. I don't understand why anyone would buy a gas fireplace. But that's my subjective evaluation and obviously, some people feel otherwise.

For a wood stove, I'd like to use less wood than I'm using. I see efficiency ratings from the 60s to the mid-80s and I wonder how much stock I can put in those numbers. I haven't done my homework on that yet.

[pause for Googling]

OK, I just found the EPA list with "Actual Measured Efficiency". I assume I can use this the same I use EPA's fuel economy numbers: to compare relative efficiency between models.

Other, less important considerations, roughly in order:

2. Price
3. Ease of use (I'm thinking easily-adjusted draft controls, a glass door to see what's going on without opening, easy to light when cold, takes long pieces, etc.)
4. Reliability and availability of replacement parts (shouldn't be an issue with most stoves, right?)
5. Longevity, safety, ease of installation

Thanks again for all the replies. I have broadened my search to Lowes, Home Depot, and Tractor Supply.

Brentwood · Feb 20, 2018

kennyp2339 said:
What kind of square footage are you heating, is the house an open concept or closed off with many rooms, how tall are the ceilings, what kind of chimney do you have and size of chimney (length & width) how many cords a year are you going through?.

Square footage: My home's about 50 x 30. I have a basement that I call a dungeon, a main floor where I spend most of my time, and an upstairs that consists of a hallway and four bedrooms. The main floor is divided into seven rooms, so the heat doesn't travel well. The exterior wall of the room with the stove is heavily insulated. The rest of the house is slowly getting there. The new foam spray kits (at least they're new to me!) are going to help me get the rest of the house insulated and sealed up as well as the stove room. Ceilings are 8' high.

The chimney is 6" single wall in the stove room, with about 15' of vertical Class A straight up through the second floor and above the roof. I gave it a good inspection over the summer and ended up replacing the top section of Class A because it had begun to open on an inner seam. Not sure whether that was age related or whether it was from running the stove too heat at some point. If it was heat related, I'd have expected to see that in a section closer to the stove.

I burn between 5 and 10 cords a year. It's hard for me to say, because I bring a little at a time and stack it outside the house, less than 10 feet from the stove door. I don't do it all at once, and I really don't keep track. I used to figure it would take me at least five really full pickup loads per year, and my really full pickup loads are probably about a cord, but most years I'm burning wood that's been stored for more than a year.

Most of the wood I burn is cut, split, and seasoned at least a year in a wooden corn crib. A couple of years ago, I was given a half-mile of live 30-year-old ash trees. I have at least five years worth of that stacked in a barn. I don't burn green wood.

Thanks for your questions and advice!

bcrtops · Feb 20, 2018

Brentwood said:
I've been using a steel Fisher Papa Bear for most of my home's heat since 1990. I do have a small boiler that I use to heat my kitchen floor and a couple of radiators when I'm going to be gone more than 8 or 10 hours, but on days when I'm home, about two-thirds of the time, the wood stove's our only heat source. It was installed in the house in between 1980 1982, and it was built in 09/79, according to the plate on the back. It works well, but it's all I've used. I wonder how much I'd benefit from a newer stove, especially in improved efficiency.

To be honest, there have been many times that I have wished we'd kept the old Fisher. They were/are incredible stoves that will out last most all the modern epa stoves. The biggest problem with them is the propensity of people using them to burn less than seasoned wood & to close them down too tight & burn smoldering fires.

Efficiency? Even looking at EPA date sheets & manufacturer's data, it is a hard thing to really pin down. As to the amount of wood you will burn -- likely only be 10-15% less, & not any more than 20% less at the most. It is, also, likely that you may change your burn habits & end up burning just as much wood. Overnight burns, nice ambience with the visible fire, etc.

begreen · Feb 20, 2018

Brentwood said:
I really appreciate all the replies. begreen is right about value being subjective. I don't like wood floors that aren't solid lumber. I think plastic decking looks awful. I don't understand why anyone would buy a gas fireplace. But that's my subjective evaluation and obviously, some people feel otherwise.

For a wood stove, I'd like to use less wood than I'm using. I see efficiency ratings from the 60s to the mid-80s and I wonder how much stock I can put in those numbers. I haven't done my homework on that yet.

[pause for Googling]

OK, I just found the EPA list with "Actual Measured Efficiency". I assume I can use this the same I use EPA's fuel economy numbers: to compare relative efficiency between models.

Other, less important considerations, roughly in order:

2. Price
3. Ease of use (I'm thinking easily-adjusted draft controls, a glass door to see what's going on without opening, easy to light when cold, takes long pieces, etc.)
4. Reliability and availability of replacement parts (shouldn't be an issue with most stoves, right?)
5. Longevity, safety, ease of installation

Thanks again for all the replies. I have broadened my search to Lowes, Home Depot, and Tractor Supply.

I'd narrow the list down to the Drolet HT2000 or Baltic II and the Englander 30NC or 50SSW02. These stoves will be in the ~73-75% efficiency range. With the best woodstoves you might get up to 80-82% but it will cost you double or triple.

Woody Stover · Feb 20, 2018

Brentwood said:
I used to figure it would take me at least five really full pickup loads per year, and my really full pickup loads are probably about a cord

I don't have a pickup truck but I've read that a tossed-in pickup load, not heaped up above the sides, is about 1/3 cord. Neatly stacked but not over the sides, about 1/2 cord.

edyit · Feb 20, 2018

i can carry a face cord (4'x8'x16") in the back of an S10

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