Re-Power riding mower or replace? Augh...

Howdy All,

I bought a '94 Snapper SR1333 used in 2011. It was not in the shape that the seller represented, so every year it's been something or another.

The engine finally became untenable last year. Even sitting for a week, it would blow white smoke for ten minutes before it cleaned up and ran. Now here is the truly SAD part, and I mean that. I met a great guy who builds drag engines. We ended up completely rebuilding the engine as an excuse to hang out. Both of us were stoked to think this machine might run another 20 years (it's 24 years old now). And the idea strikes me as damn funny. I learned a TON from this guy.

The most amazing thing that I saw was him putting it back together with no documentation after a six-week break!! He'd pick up a part, figure out what it must do, and what direction it had to point, and so on. He deduced his way through that engine one piece at a time. He'd never done a small engine before, so he thought his way through automotive theory to small engine theory.

We get everything put back together, fix drive mechanisms, brakes, cables, electric, and it's brilliant. I cut the grass with it twice. I promised a sad part, and here you go. I opened the shed door for round three and smelled gas. There's a puddle under the mower. I start the engine three times for 3-4 seconds each. Tons of smoke. I check the oil. It must be more gas than oil in there. I rebuild the carb and install a fuel shut off. I drop the oil 4-5 times running 3-4 minutes per run, but too late - the engine is shot!! Something inside is now trying to get out.

Anyway, B&S has a 10.5HP unit to replace my 14HP unit. A big part of this mower's life will be going straight up and down a 15-20 degree hill.

1. Will I miss that 4 HP?
2. I have space constraints. I'm stuck with a 35" space where the mower fits. There aren't many units out there that narrow.
3. I am just super paranoid about the engines for sale these days. Last year I had a guy find me a Honda engine, but at $750, I didn't want to do that at the time. Now I can't find it.
4. The Snapper seems to have a fairly low center of gravity. Are other lawn tractors similar?

So I'm stuck at the crossroads. Do I persevere with the Snapper, take my chances with another used mower, or buy something new shipped directly from China?

Any thoughts would be appreciated. I'm stuck.

Thanks,
Greg

rowerwet said:

Is there a predator engine in the size you need?
I've had great experience with predator engines on my equipment.
Even new the price is not bad

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At first blush, looks like they jump from 5.5 to 22HP.

Corey said:

If this 'guy who builds drag engines' was worth his salt, that thing would have a blower, nitrous, or turbo. I've seen several V8 lawnmower conversions on youtube, so maybe use that as a starting point? ... or if space is an issue as you mention, possibly an I4-turbo set up?

If you insist on some 'in kind' replacement, you might do some searching on HP ratings. I know they have changed quite a lot over the years. I remember our push mowers used to be '3.5 hp', then at some point that same engine started showing up labeled '6.5 hp'. Believe there were other changes around 2012 also. Bottom line is that what was listed as '14 hp' in 1994 might be '20hp'... or '10hp' in today's engines. You might almost have to default to simply replacing like displacement with like displacement.

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OMG, I just did some reading on this. What a gigantic topic. Displacement sounds like the safest bet. Of course my old engine probably NEVER made 14hp even on the day it left the factory.

He and I had lot of discussions about blowers, turbos and nitrous. He took me for a ride in his "grocery-getter". Of course there's no seat for me, and when his thumb left the red button, we were at about 116mph at maybe three telephone poles... Then he hit the brakes and the damn thing came to a stop just as quick!! And I'm guessing the cabin inside was at 1dB per MPH. You're gonna die and it's too loud to bother screaming. ;-)

I think my main concern will be mounting holes and shaft length and diameter.

I don't have to conserve every penny on this effort. I'd prefer it to be some fun and a long-term solution where I learn things. It'll be a bit of a drag to work my creaky bones in the meantime.

zrock said:

have you pulled the motor apart to see what the issue is? May just be a simple fix of a bearing or connecting rod since they got fuel washed. hone the cyl, fresh rings, and whatever broke and you should be good to go for under $50. Or watch your local buy and sell and FB for a used honda engine in another machine you can swap out. Those things run forever even with no maint. Got one on a pressure washer at work probably 10 plus years old. Very abused probably has never had a oil change, always water in the fuel and the thing starts by the second pull every time.

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We're going to do a post mortem on the engine. But I have never seen so much metal in oil in all my life (as a guitar player!! ;-)

And the block is now cracked. As a novice, I just had no idea of how serious that puddle of gas was. But it had to be getting fuel washed before I put it away. But if three 3-4 second runs can ruin an engine, then that's what I did.

But I gave it the coup de gras by running it for a few minutes at a time and changing the oil expecting the metal to clear up.

I feel awful about that. All that great effort for a nobel cause to keep one more thing out of a landfill...

WOW! 19HP!! That's pretty incredible. All this info is new to me, as in first time ever. I keep seeing 10 bolt pattern, 1"x3-5/32", or Honda being 1"x3.11".

For the first time ever, I understand my broken engine is a flathead, of all things. I thought that was stuff Harley riders just made up, like "I got a 57 Knucklebutt pan-handle hard tail". Guess not...

Am currently studying flathead (L head), OHV and OHC. Pluses and minuses on every account.

Am seeing engines with fuel pumps and oil filter. I did know my 4-stroke stuff was all oil-slinger.

I reckon a person just makes the cables work. It's pretty much just the throttle/choke. And one might have to suss out an electric start, but how many ways can it go together? One? ;-)

Seasoned Oak said:

At my age i don't want to be working on em any more. Especially in winter when i need to plow some snow.

I just ordered a New John Deere Riding mower from the dealer. Its made in Tennessee so that's good, and it has a higher quality mowing deck on it than the big box store models, also a smoother quieter motor.Heavier axle.
I once had a lot of trouble with a Massey Ferguson with a crappy mower deck always throwing belts. They (John Deere)are a few hundred more from the dealer then the ones at HD and lowes but its something you have for a long time and quality usually pays for itself in the long run.

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The trouble I'm running into with all the new ones is that they're so doggone wide. I have maybe 35-36" set aside to store a rider, and all the modern mowers seem to have 54" decks to start. I've not had a brainwave about an alternate storage plan yet, but I'll give it consideration. The Snapper seems to have a low center of gravity and I mow up and down and across hills. Well, it's only one hill but the damn thing is always there!!

The ones that would fit are $1000 at HD and Lowes, but it's hard to imagine they put a lot of quality into a $1000 rider.

I really am leaning towards re-powering the Snapper since we did so many things to it to get it back to spec. If I'm lucky, I'll try to get the engine off and get companies to send me their bolt patterns.

Appreciate all the responses. The support really does help. This is "fun", but it's way outside my comfort zone.

Engine selection is leading to analysis/paralysis. I got the old engine off today, so whoopee. I drew a template of the available holes. After hours of searching, I found ONE company in Australia brave enough to publish some B&S mounting hole dimensions. They matched my existing holes. I found ONE Honda document with the same info, but it was horizontal shaft.

BUT, I had a brainwave. I kept reading that Honda used a 10" bolt circle. When I measured the holes DIAGONALLY that B&S used, they were 10" apart. I found a few other sets of holes that were 10" on the diagonal on the body.

So there must be a standard of sorts. Am trying to figure out how to contact Honda to get dimensions. Not as easy as you'd think...

In general, the B&S Vanguard series has a good rep since they're made in Japan. Other B&S, Kohler, etc, all seem to have a bad, disposable rap. So I'm trying to talk myself into the Honda.

Since I do so much stuff on a hill, I'm thinking about not getting an oil-slinger. Of course, that changes all the research I've done to date. And the price probably just went way up...

Doing the right thing is hard, isn't it? ;-)

Well, the plot thickens. I've realized that every engine I hate has been a B&S. So I'm going to go with Honda, even if it seems idiotic for the price of the engine and the receiving platform. I've checked all my storage and 35" is my max space. I'm just a "Devil I Know" kind of guy with the mower frame.

I think I FINALLY understand what's going on with the mounting holes. This was a fascinating concept for me to try and grasp. The "10" bolt circle" referred to by Honda engine is a circle drawn 10" round the drive shaft (looking straight-on). If you imagine a line going from noon to six, the top two holes are 35 degrees to the left and right. The bottom two holes are 45 degrees to the left and right. This is the same as the Briggs I took off.

That must be why nobody is really publishing corner to corner dimensions of the Honda bolt pattern. My theory of holes 10" apart on a diagonal is incorrect.

Now, even more bizarre, I found a post in a forum from 2010 where someone did the EXACT same thing I'm planning. The engine looks tight in the space, but it clears, if only just. I looked up the poster's references to handling the wiring (in a similar post), and it looks like the info is there.

Ashful, it might entertain you to see how tight the fit is. Seasoned Oak, that sounds like one REALLY nice machine. I read that Borg-Warner used to display a banner in their factory in Muncie. It said "Quality will be remembered long after initial price point is forgotten".

http://www.mytractorforum.com/15-snapper-forum/121189-first-post.html

Well, I got the Honda engine. And it fit. I'll post my divination of the original Snapper wiring. Here's one rub - the Snapper has its own solenoid. The Honda engine has its own solenoid.

I've done a complete rewiring according to my second pictorial schematic. I think it's the electrical equivalent to the original wiring.

I had to remove the Honda gas tank to make clearance for the throttle cable. The Honda needs to orient top to bottom for correct operation. This actually helps me because I'll use the Honda tank on a pressure washer whose tank leaks!! And the Snapper tank is bigger. So it's a win.

Here are my pictures. I hope to be able to add oil and solve gas issues on Tuesday.
Thanks,
Greg