Finalizing Plans / Advice

Sukhoi29SU · Nov 10, 2018

I'm finalizing plans for a gut remodel and addition in north central Illinois. The home is early 70's construction and has been heated by LP forced air. I added 2x Avalon Olympic wood burners on each floor when I purchased the home in 2012. Home is currently gutted and down to the studs. For the remodel I plan on prioritizing ideal insulation, and new windows will be installed throughout.

I plan on hydronic heating (mixture of radiant floor heat and european style wall units, throughout). I plan on ridding the house of the propane furnace and all the associated duct work.

I've attached the building docs in the works, as well as a second pdf with floor plan and what I've got in mind for heating (8746 pdf with highlighted colors). I plan on concrete floors throughout most of the home. Durable, they can look good with concrete overlay or acid stained, and they are (from what I understand) the most effective floor for in-floor radiant heat. I've highlighted in yellow the area where I plan for concrete flooring. The bedrooms I've considered installing wood floors and heating these rooms with the european wall units (highlighted orange). The current lower level has a concrete floor, so if I was to install in-floor heat there, I'd lose a couple inches of ceiling height after insulating and pouring a top layer of concrete or gyp-crete over the existing floor. I've considered not using in floor heat at all in the lower level and heating the entire area with hydronic wall units. Thoughts?

The garage addition (approx. 1700 sq ft) will have span-crete with a lower level workshop beneath it (another 1700 sq. ft), and I plan on having a garage door access on lower level workshop as well.

Ideally, I'd like to quit burning propane entirely. I understand, however, that I do need a backup heat source. Finding someone locally and licensed in Illinois who is familiar with gasification wood boilers and install has been a challenge, at best. For this reason, I believe my COA #1 is to have a radiant heat specialist from Chicago do the install utilizing a propane boiler. Then, I hope to "tie-in" the primary heat source, such as a wood gasifier boiler.

A few questions:

1. If this guy does a good job with the install, and down the road I want to add a gasification wood boiler or pellet boiler as the primary source of fuel - would it be relatively simple to "tie-in" to the existing propane system? I'd like to have a gasification wood boiler (such as a Heatmaster G-200 with integral storage) to heat the water and when the demand isn't met (wood isn't added), the propane automatically kicks on to supply the demand. Would his propane system be pressurized? Which I understand is what I'd want for an indoor installed wood boiler?

2. Would it be practical or possible to get rid of propane all together? Even having to see the propane tank on my property annoys me. Would another 'backup' source of fuel be better? I understand I'll need two boilers regardless. Would a pellet boiler be a decent backup source? Or, do you think sticking with a propane boiler as the backup makes the most sense?

3. Anyone on these forums have any experience with span-crete (workshop under garage)? I've heard about possible moisture issues, for which I think in floor heat on both levels makes sense - provided that I can zone it and keep the garage and workshop at a much lower constant temp than the house.

A lot of knowledge on this forum. Just looking to see if anyone can find any glaring issues, or obvious ideas / changes to the plan I should be considering over the winter before we start pouring concrete.

Thanks in advance!

Sukhoi29SU · Nov 10, 2018

I forgot to mention, in the second PDF that I've highlighted - I've shown where I'd plan to place the gasification wood boiler based on where the flue would need to go up through the main garage - to be the least obtrusive. I'm not sure where the best place would be to put the propane boiler.

leon · Nov 13, 2018

Sukhoi29SU said:
I forgot to mention, in the second PDF that I've highlighted - I've shown where I'd plan to place the gasification wood boiler based on where the flue would need to go up through the main garage - to be the least obtrusive. I'm not sure where the best place would be to put the propane boiler.

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If your doing this much work you should use 5,000 PSI sand mix concrete as it is more stable and if properly insulated and reinforced it will be much better to use and also vibrate in place.

Your insurer, national plumbing code and your local plumbing inspector will most likely tell you that you cannot put your boiler flue in the garage unless there are no vehicles in it.

Just as an FYI you should consider using steam heat and small panel radiators as you can use refrigerant grade soft copper tubing to deliver steam to panel radiators on both levels by placing the insulated header pipe in the attic and running the insulated copper tubing(in the attic to each panel radiator.

A small steam boiler the size of a small office desk will make lots of dry steam for you with a pair of drop headers. The dry steam the boiler will make can travel a long distance to the end radiators and be very efficient.

Bad LP · Nov 13, 2018

OK to have the LP system 100% up and running then add the gasifacation boiler and tanks later. I did it.
My first floor is RFH in lightweight concrete covered in tile and wood (Gypcrete) and only the bathrooms that are tile on the second are but I wish I had installed panel rads versus the HWBB in the bedrooms and loft. Someday that will change. Have as many zones as you can afford. 2500 sqft and I have 7 with stubs in the manifold for 2 more.

Heat the first floor with RFH. Wall units limit furniture placement.

My wood boiler and LP boiler are side by side in the basement and both are tied into the manifolds. Basement is plenty warm in the winter with the boiler running and the heat loss is contained in the living space. I do have a Modine that doubles as a powered dump zone for the boiler and in 13 years, I can count on one hand the times I've used it.

Reconsider removing the duct work from the old system. Mine contains my central AC and I have the option of adding a water to air coil for instant heat down the road. The RFH takes a long time to come up to temp. In the winter when I head north I call the house 24 hours in advance to bring the temp up to 70 from 50-55 depending on what part of the season we are in. I do have a central steam humidifier in the supply plenum for the winter.

Here at home base there is a detached 2 story garage. 4 bays below, 4 bays above. Pre-stressed concrete flanks over the foundation walls with a 1.5 inch grout pour over the planks. Put a snow covered truck or machine upstairs and water does get thru the floor to the area below. Water will also get in between the plank and the top of the poured foundation wall. For heat I'm using a ceiling hung LP fired unit, no heat on the lower level where the tractor/snowblower and former plow truck is kept.

In Maine the garage has a LP fired Modine for the auto section and in the workshop area 2 high bay LP fired radiant heaters that is yet to be hooked up.

Sukhoi29SU · Nov 13, 2018

Thanks for the responses, fellas.

Leon, is that 5000 psi sand concrete mix you were referring to a finishable concrete floor (can be acid stained or used with concrete overlays)?

I knew insurance might be concerned with the boiler in the same room as vehicles, but I didn’t consider the flue. I hope that isn’t a problem.

Leon, when you say use RFH on first floor, are you talking about the main (upper floor) or the lower level walkout basement? I had sort of planned on in floor heat on the upper level where most of the living areas are. And panel radiators down stairs with most of the bedrooms and a much smaller living space.

Because the house will he lived in every day, I am not as concerned with the time it takes to get house up to temperature. With a propane backup, I should just be able to set the thermostat at 69 degrees at the beginning of December and leave it set until I can use the mini splits for the more mildly cool days come spring time.

I’m meeting with the propane radiant guy this weekend. I’ll mention some of these considerations you guys informed me of. Thanks again I do appreciate your time and advice

leon · Nov 14, 2018

Sukhoi29SU said:
Thanks for the responses, fellas.

Leon, is that 5000 psi sand concrete mix you were referring to a finishable concrete floor (can be acid stained or used with concrete overlays)?

(Yes, if the concrete people know what they are doing, they know how to manage and place sand mix concrete. I would just vibrate it, and add more ready sand mix, vibrate it again then just finish it and then cover it with good tile after you cover it with a heavy tarp that is not water proof to let it cure for a week with several sprinklers watering the entire pour+ then put a good stone tile on it)
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I knew insurance might be concerned with the boiler in the same room as vehicles, but I didn’t consider the flue. I hope that isn’t a problem.

(It will be a problem)
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Leon, when you say use RFH on first floor, are you talking about the main (upper floor) or the lower level walkout basement? I had sort of planned on in floor heat on the upper level where most of the living areas are. And panel radiators down stairs with most of the bedrooms and a much smaller living space.

(Once you put a properly installed steam header and steam vent in the attic you can run dry steam heat all over the place and in the basement with very very low pressure by making sure the Tees are at 45 degrees to allow you to run dry steam to the panel radiators and then the panel radiators can be controlled individually.
As long as the plumber knows what he or she is doing and is licensed to install steam heat you will have no trouble with it. You can run all the panel radiators in the center of the basement too)

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Because the house will be lived in every day, I am not as concerned with the time it takes to get house up to temperature. With a propane backup, I should just be able to set the thermostat at 69 degrees at the beginning of December and leave it set until I can use the mini splits for the more mildly cool days come spring time.

I’m meeting with the propane radiant guy this weekend. I’ll mention some of these considerations you guys informed me of. Thanks again I do appreciate your time and advice

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Do not let your propain guy design your system !!!

Hire a licensed HVAC engineer to do this and ask about using a small steam boiler with 4 tappings in the steam chest to feed two drop headers to make dry steam.

A small steam boiler with 4 tapping in the steam chest will make low pressure steam much faster and provide more dry steam at a faster rate through a pair of drop headers connected to all four tappings and two condensate drains(one from each drop header) back to the boiler water level for the Hartford loops.

Asking a boiler manufacturer to add two more tappings to a small steam boiler will only require a change order and the cost of the pressure testing for the H stamp.

A steam boiler with a drop header coming off the top of the steam chest with four tappings will makes lots and lots of dry steam heat very fast and at a controlled rate with the dry steam.

You can also make all your hot water for your domestic hot water needs with a coil in the steam boiler and use a mixing valve to lower the water temperature before it enters the hot water heater.

AN H stamp steam tested boiler will pass with insurance and local code approval with flying colors and make heat at a very low cost with less water.

if your propain guy rolls his eyes hold on to your wallet and walk away.

YOU NEED AN HVAC ENGINEER for this to save money, time and interest expense as a steam or gravity hot water system system will have a higher upfront cost BUT it will last for a century or longer and you will have fewer components to go bad.

Do not let anyone tell you that you cannot have very warm floors and rooms with steam heat or that you cannot have rooms and warm floors with gravity hot water heat.

Bad LP · Nov 14, 2018

Huh?

My propane boiler tech did the wood boiler piping. We followed the piping plan from Tarm. They are a Tarm dealer as well. Matter of fact there were some questions and Tarm was happy to help.

I guess some of us have better working relationships with those who work for us.

Sukhoi29SU · Nov 14, 2018

leon said:
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Do not let your propain guy design your system

Hire a licensed HVAC engineer to do this and ask about using a small steam boiler with 4 tappings in the steam chest to feed two drop headers to make dry steam.

A small steam boiler with 4 tapping in the steam chest will make low pressure steam much faster and provide more dry steam at a faster rate through a pair of drop headers connected to all four tappings and two condensate drains(one from each drop header) back to the boiler water level for the Hartford loop.

Asking a boiler manufacturer to add two more tappings to a small steam boiler will only require a change order and the cost of the pressure testing for the H stamp.

A steam boiler with a drop header coming off the top of the steam chest with four tappings will makes lots and lots of dry steam heat very fast and at a controlled rate with the dry steam.

You can also make all your hot water for your domestic hot water needs with a coil in the steam boiler and use a mixing valve to lower the water temperature before it enters the hot water heater.

AN H stamp steam tested boiler will pass with flying colors and make heat at a very low cost.

if your propain guy rolls his eyes hold on to your wallet and walk away.

This guy (propane radiant installer) sure seems experienced, knowledgeable and honest, though... He took a look at the project house back in March and is coming out this weekend now that the place has been gutted and the plans are a bit more firm.

I’m not sure if the steam boiler would work if it requires attic space, as you mentioned earlier. All the ceilings on the main (upper) floor are going to be vaulted.

maple1 · Nov 14, 2018

leon said:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Do not let your propain guy design your system

Hire a licensed HVAC engineer to do this and ask about using a small steam boiler with 4 tappings in the steam chest to feed two drop headers to make dry steam.

A small steam boiler with 4 tapping in the steam chest will make low pressure steam much faster and provide more dry steam at a faster rate through a pair of drop headers connected to all four tappings and two condensate drains(one from each drop header) back to the boiler water level for the Hartford loop.

Asking a boiler manufacturer to add two more tappings to a small steam boiler will only require a change order and the cost of the pressure testing for the H stamp.

A steam boiler with a drop header coming off the top of the steam chest with four tappings will makes lots and lots of dry steam heat very fast and at a controlled rate with the dry steam.

You can also make all your hot water for your domestic hot water needs with a coil in the steam boiler and use a mixing valve to lower the water temperature before it enters the hot water heater.

AN H stamp steam tested boiler will pass with flying colors and make heat at a very low cost.

if your propain guy rolls his eyes hold on to your wallet and walk away.

So. Why steam - exactly?

I don't know of anyone with a steam system in their house. Some might have old steam systems, that have since been converted to hot water. Fail to see any reason for going down that road.

leon · Nov 14, 2018

If you have room in the basement you can put the steam boiler in the basement and run the piping according to how the HVAC engineer designs it to be plumbed out and it will reach the first floor with no problems as well as heat your basement.

maple1 · Nov 14, 2018

As will hot water. Using more common parts and designs.

leon · Nov 14, 2018

Steam heating or gravity hot water has always had a higher up front cost of installation but the heat is even and recovers quickly without pumping and can be controlled from one thermostat to heat the entire home using radiator mounted thermostats in each room.

Steam has a much greater thermal advantage as a heat transfer medium as one gallon of water will expand 1,700 times to create dry steam at 1.5 pounds pressure for the home owner using drop headers and hartford loops to return the condensate created by boiling the water back to the boiler to be used again and again.

The use of 2 drop headers connecting to 4 tappings in a steam chest creates a huge amount of steam in a very short time and the drop header have the drain pipes that eliminate any chance of condensate entering in the steam header pipes and causing water hammering in the header pipes or the radiators whether they are a steam tube type radiator or a flat panel steam radiator.

The header pipe has a vent on the very end of the header pipe to allow the dry steam to push out the air in the pipe and allow the dry steam to enter the header and travel to the radiators or cast iron baseboard and the radiators and or cast iron baseboard have vents that permit the air to escape and the steam to enter the radiator or baseboard to heat the living space.

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Gravity hot water heating operates using hot water riser pipe and a return water riser pipe to deliver the cooler water back to the basement and the boiler sump to be heated again and then pushed out through the boilers steam chest in one or two riser pipes with NO circulators, wet or dry steam, steam vents or steam traps or BLEEDING of the heating system as the open to air expansion tank is the air space that allows any and all to leave the heating system and just lets the boiler heat water to 180 degrees and letting the water rise naturally.

A circulator with a check valve may be used to deliver more hot water to the open to air expansion tank or tanks in the attic or the high point in the staircase with a simple float switch to control the water level.

There are a lot of homes that use low pressure steam heat and gravity hot water heating method and these homes and businesses have been using these heating methods for over a century.

Sukhoi29SU · Nov 14, 2018

Leon,

My apologies, but a lot of what you’re saying is exceeding my ability to comprehend without having a base knowledge of the system and how it works.

Does the steam boiler require water storage? One thing I like about the Heatmaster wood boilers is the integral storage and not having to install a bunch of large storage tanks.

leon · Nov 14, 2018

Sukhoi29SU said:
Leon,

My apologies, but a lot of what you’re saying is exceeding my ability to comprehend without having a base knowledge of the system and how it works.

Does the steam boiler require water storage? One thing I like about the Heatmaster wood boilers is the integral storage and not having to install a bunch of large storage tanks.

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If you want to learn more about steam heat purchase 2 paperback books from AMAZON or www.dansbooks.com if you purchase them through Dans books all profits go to the author Dan Holohan.

WE GOT STEAM and GREENING STEAM both th of which were written by Dan Holohan, when you have them and read them you will have a well rounded knowledge about steam heat and how easy it is.

Steam heating does not require a large amount of water to make steam and transfer dry steam heat from the steam chest to the drop headers which only allow dry steam to exit the drop header pipes and then to the header pipes to the vents in the end of the header pipes and then to the radiators after the main vents close.
The wet steam turns into condensate and drains back into the boiler at the water level saving water and maintaining a dry single pipe steam system.

A very small water volume in the steam boiler is heated and it creates wet steam to the extent that it creates 1,700 times its volume in expansion through the drop headers and then the dry steam that exits the drop headers travels to the radiators and the dry steam forces the air in the radiators to be pushed out through the vents and when the air is all gone in the radiators and the heat is satified the vents shut.

E Yoder · Nov 15, 2018

Not sure how you're going to transfer heat from the G200 to a steam system.
Hot water works great.

leon · Nov 16, 2018

He has not purchased the forest eater yet as I understand it. Steam heat works very well in fact in a single family residence and has done so for over a century in many many installations.

A very small steam boiler with two drop headers to make dry steam that will heat that house very economically and he will be able to make domestic hot water the year round with the steam boiler using a coil in the steam boiler if he wants to do that as well.

maple1 · Nov 16, 2018

Got a link to a new modern very small steam boiler?

leon · Nov 16, 2018

coal, gas or oil?

There are a lot of H stamp boilers for sale

Here are three brands

www.alternateheatingsystems.com
wood, coal, gas, oil boilers

www.axeman-anderson.com
coal, oil, gas boilers

www.efmheating.com
wood, coal, oil, electric boilers

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