Taxing and tariffs

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sportbikerider78 said:
...and they all kick back to those politicians.

End the subsidies. Let farmers grow whatever makes sense in that new economy and move on.
Totally agree on oil and all energy as well...including alternate energy. Clean the playing field.
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I think we've been there already. And it didn't turn out well. Most of policies pertaining to farm subsidies, market constraints, incentives and land policies stem from the fiasco of the 30s. Policy makers understand that, and are determined not to go back to that. Most consumers and taxpayers don't.
 
CaptSpiff said:
I do now ! :)

I need a decoder ring. OMG, now i'm dating myself.

(did you see how I put that OMG in there? I'm catching on)
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OMG? Only(oh) my God, good, ground, grind, graft, grid, grand, gramps, granite, ect . geese (geez) get to to the pt.(point) folks here used to hate twitter? those decoder rings only led you to the cereal isle?
 
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Sawset said:
I think we've been there already. And it didn't turn out well. Most of policies pertaining to farm subsidies, market constraints, incentives and land policies stem from the fiasco of the 30s. Policy makers understand that, and are determined not to go back to that. Most consumers and taxpayers don't.
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You either get a regulated market controlled by a very powerful elite few or a market controlled by very many (consumers).
 
sportbikerider78 said:
You either get a regulated market controlled by a very powerful elite few or a market controlled by very many (consumers).
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An unregulated market is still controlled by a powerful few.
 
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bholler said:
An unregulated market is still controlled by a powerful few.
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Indeed. In our case over the past 40 yrs. they have systematically removed the safeguards step by step and shifted wealth to the top of the feeding chain, mostly via banking industry deregulation, but also on tax reductions for the wealthy. (Remember Savings & Loans banks? They disappeared in 8 yrs after 1980s deregulation.) "Free" markets seem to always go toward monopolization with wealth focussed on the top. The current result is that the American middle class has lost a lot of ground to the point where according to PEW research they may no longer the economic majority.
 
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bholler said:
An unregulated market is still controlled by a powerful few.
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The collusion between the big bankers and the federal reserve is run by very very few powerful people at the total detriment of the value of our dollar and the long term saving of every American.
 
begreen said:
The current result is that the American middle class has lost a lot of ground to the point where according to PEW research they may no longer the economic majority.
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I don’t get it. I see more kids of the middle class driving newer cars and carrying more expensive electronics than I ever owned at their age. I see more adults also driving nicer cars and buying more Starbucks than my parents could ever afford. It seems to me that the middle class is living better, than at any time in our young country’s history, and all you can do is whine to the contrary of what seems obvious to anyone on the street. Where is the disconnect?
 
Just as local weather does not necessarily reflect global climate change, nor does local economy reflect the state of the whole country. You live in a particularly wealthy area compared to the rest of the country. That and maybe people are getting more into debt?

Screen Shot 2018-12-26 at 11.49.57 AM.png Screen Shot 2018-12-26 at 11.51.06 AM.png MW-FJ600_debt_b_20170403134101_NS.jpg
 
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Ashful said:
I don’t get it. I see more kids of the middle class driving newer cars and carrying more expensive electronics than I ever owned at their age. I see more adults also driving nicer cars and buying more Starbucks than my parents could ever afford. It seems to me that the middle class is living better, than at any time in our young country’s history, and all you can do is whine to the contrary of what seems obvious to anyone on the street. Where is the disconnect?
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The disconnect is exactly what bg said come out to.the middle of the state and you will see quite a difference. And there are many areas in allot worse shape than pa.
 
sportbikerider78 said:
The collusion between the big bankers and the federal reserve is run by very very few powerful people at the total detriment of the value of our dollar and the long term saving of every American.
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I dont dissagree with that but deregulation of the banking industry caused the problems we are still recovering from. Deregulation has never put more power in the hands of consumers
 
Surge in imports in anticipation of tariffs, was to be expected. All these foreign made imported products while our own workforce deteriorates. Plenty of job openings in local warehouses,but no takers. In areas where Govt has not heavily subsidized the economy with public and borrowed dollars many are not doing so hot. Lots of young people around here overdosing on a daily and weekly basis. Seems like a larger percentage of young people today, look affluent but have no career goals or direction some spending what seems to be their parents money since many dont work. The Coroner carried out a 30 yr old 2 doors down from me last week another 30 something a few blocks away. Overdose epidemic.Fentynal everywhere. Even the places that seem thriving, take away the flood of federal dollars and borrowed dollars keeping the cities afloat and those would look the same or worse. This small town is barely surviving on pensioners and disability checks. Pockets of prosperity with many areas in distress. More Taxes on the remaining productive folks will not save us. Not all bad but trending downward.
https://wnep.com/2011/08/10/coal-re...v6p11ZWTYyJ3XkZbFQrDsf-xhgHXxEyr_fyyH-SA8mVqE
 
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Seasoned Oak said:
Surge in imports in anticipation of tariffs, was to be expected. All these foreign made imported products while our own workforce deteriorates. Plenty of job openings in local warehouses,but no takers. In areas where Govt has not heavily subsidized the economy with public and borrowed dollars many are not doing so hot. Lots of young people around here overdosing on a daily and weekly basis. Seems like a larger percentage of young people today, look affluent but have no career goals or direction some spending what seems to be their parents money since many dont work. The Coroner carried out a 30 yr old 2 doors down from me last week another 30 something a few blocks away. Overdose epidemic.Fentynal everywhere. Even the places that seem thriving, take away the flood of federal dollars and borrowed dollars keeping the cities afloat and those would look the same or worse. This small town is barely surviving on pensioners and disability checks. Pockets of prosperity with many areas in distress. More Taxes on the remaining productive folks will not save us. Not all bad but trending downward.
https://wnep.com/2011/08/10/coal-re...v6p11ZWTYyJ3XkZbFQrDsf-xhgHXxEyr_fyyH-SA8mVqE
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Your grandparents were making the same complaints, 50 years ago. Think about how things must have looked to the older generation, in the late-1960’s.

I see a lot of things that bother me in “kids today”, but I think the overall trend is upward, in most regards.
 
Ashful said:
Your grandparents were making the same complaints, 50 years ago. Think about how things must have looked to the older generation, in the late-1960’s.
I see a lot of things that bother me in “kids today”, but I think the overall trend is upward, in most regards.
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Thats good to hear that some areas are doing well. I was around to see it 50 years ago as a teenager.
 
Seasoned Oak said:
Thats good to hear that some areas are doing well. I was around to see it 50 years ago as a teenager.
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Oh, I know that. Who do you think your grandparents were complaining about? :)
 
Ashful said:
Your grandparents were making the same complaints, 50 years ago. Think about how things must have looked to the older generation, in the late-1960’s.

I see a lot of things that bother me in “kids today”, but I think the overall trend is upward, in most regards.
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I agree except for the "college" education they're getting.
 
So now there is some economic data coming in. It's estimated that the tariffs are costing American businesses and consumers about $3 billion a month, plus another $1.5 billion a month in deadweight losses. Locally steel tariffs are costing the state $100s of millions extra on major infrastructure projects. The tariffs seem to not have slowed down exports very much. Many countries are finding other ready markets and the US trade deficit just hit a record level. The worst effect of these trade wars seems to be hitting Europe. Is that what we want? Do these policies prove beneficial or harmful in the long run?

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/03/opinion/how-goes-the-trade-war.html
https://www.wsj.com/articles/december-2018-trade-data-from-u-s-commerce-department-11551877494
 
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A NY Times opinion column... If the tariffs cured cancer, gave sight to the blind, and brought about an era of world peace they would still find a way to write a negative article about it.
 
WinterinWI said:
A NY Times opinion column... If the tariffs cured cancer, gave sight to the blind, and brought about an era of world peace they would still find a way to write a negative article about it.
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Yes an opinion peice based on real hard data. You can dismiss the opinion as biased without question. But can you explain to us how those numbers are telling us the tariffs have been beneficial? I can tell you they haven't helped any in the chimney industry
 
Guys, you can’t discredit an article, just because of the source. I’m as much a conservative as anyone on the forum, and I have to fight a similar gut reaction to anything from The NY Times, but it’s important that you hear all angles. Yes, they are coloring a picture to fit their narrative, the truth always lies somewhere between MSNBC and Fox News, you owe it to yourself to watch both and make your own decision.
 
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Ashful said:
Guys, you can’t discredit an article, just because of the source. I’m as much a conservative as anyone on the forum, and I have to fight a similar gut reaction to anything from The NY Times, but it’s important that you hear all angles. Yes, they are coloring a picture to fit their narrative, the truth always lies somewhere between MSNBC and Fox News, you owe it to yourself to watch both and make your own decision.
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I couldn't agree more
 
bholler said:
I couldn't agree more
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Politics has become religion. I’d like to think this public sentiment can’t last more than a generation in its current form, but I read examples from 50 years back that make me realize it’s been this way for longer than any of us realize. Too many folks will always defend the dogma of one side or the other, without stopping to figure out which really agrees with their own ethics.
 
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As far as the tariffs go, there are short term consequences to be sure, but personally, I'm fine with what is being tried. Better than just sitting around while jobs go overseas and store shelves are lined with products made in other countries. Only time will tell if it was a good long term strategy or not. It's too early to tell what the real long term effects of this policy are.

Tariff free trade all around would be great. Only problem is, not all countries want to do that.
 
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WinterinWI said:
As far as the tariffs go, there are short term consequences to be sure, but personally, I'm fine with what is being tried. Better than just sitting around while jobs go overseas and store shelves are lined with products made in other countries. Only time will tell if it was a good long term strategy or not. It's too early to tell what the real long term effects of this policy are.

Tariff free trade all around would be great. Only problem is, not all countries want to do that.
Click to expand...

Actually we already have a pretty good idea of what the changes in tariffs and taxes are doing... Bigger trade deficits and bigger budget deficits (more federal debt to pass on to the next generation - where are the Tea Party deficit hawks when you need them?)

Anyway, if you don't like the way the New York Times tells the story, watch David Stockman (one of the fathers of Reaganomics / Reagan's OMB director) unload on Trump policies:

https://www.cnbc.com/video/2019/02/...ll-bring-down-an-economy-on-its-last-leg.html
 
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