Above ground piping okay??

[old silverback]

New guy here, I did do a search found nothing on the subject. Have had 3 owb with alot of piping problems and yes for the most part the problem was a lack of attention to detail on my part. Soon to be installing Aquatherm omega he 30 gassification boiler with a 50 ft. run to my shop. Question, can I run my well insulated pipes along the outside wall of my shop? They will be protected and will not be in the way of any actvity in the area. Any thoughts?? Thanks Steve

 

[oldspark]

Boy I dont know, you don not see above ground piping that far north very often even if it is well insulated, asking for problems maybe.

 

[vvvv]

frost heave?

 

[sdrobertson]

The real enemy of water lines is water. I have thought of this also and I don't see a problem if done right. The insulation must remain water proof so it has to be sealed up really tight. I envision a box a couple inches off the ground with a sloped roof with the lines running in the middle of it. Spray foam would be the best to insulate the lines but depending on the size of the box, other materials could be used. If the lines are being used to heat the building that the lines are running against, it would be better to run them inside the building as any heat lose would be directly in the building.

 

[slowzuki]

Is your boiler ever shut down or left? Power failures? In the ground you have time. Even heavily insulated above ground you have very little time in cold weather.

 

[old silverback]

Is your boiler ever shut down or left? Power failures? In the ground you have time. Even heavily insulated above ground you have very little time in cold weather.

Antifreeze mix is in the picture, learned that lesson 30 yrs. ago. thanks Steve

 

[rkusek]

antifreeze changes everthing. I guess your not not doing pressurized storage. If you can keep water and rodents out I can't see a problem. I'm guessing you could encase it in PVC, seal up openings, fasten to your shed to avoid damage and not have to worry about it much. It would be much easier to repair a leak thats for sure.

 

[heaterman]

I would still rather see it in ground, even if it's only a foot or two deep. There are no shortcuts with underground tubing, or above ground for that matter. Any corner you try to cut will come back and bite you where it hurts.

My recommendation would be to bite the bullet and buy a good grade of underground tube like MicroFlex and just do it. You should expect to pay around $17-19 per foot + fittings for top quality product that is watertight and will stay that way.
If there's any area that I see people get in trouble with repeatedly, time after time, it's the underground tube. Lot's of installs suffer from poor performance because of junk product and/or being too small. Salesmen will swear on a stack of Bible's that whatever they are selling will do the job but that is sadly not the case.

I was at the Ohio Farm Science Review this week scouting for prospective dealers in that state and took a stroll around to the wood boiler guys there trying to find one that would make a good dealer. Posing as a customer, I asked a few questions to gauge the level of competence of the person I was talking too. Here's an example:
ME: "I have a pole barn about 160' from my boiler and it has a 200,000 btu heating load, what size tube do I need to run that heater"?
DEALER: "This stuff right here will do everything you need. No problem" (He's showing me drain tile with a pair of foam wrapped 1" tubes in it.)
ME: "Well, 1" tube seems kind of small for 200,000 btu's."
DEALER: "I have that tubing running all kinds of buildings. I'm sure it will do it. It's only $11.95 a foot so it won't cost as much as some of the other rip off guys. "

Needless to say I didn't need to hear anything further.............

 

[mikeyny]

I ran my tarm from the detached garage for 4 yrs with above ground pipe with water in it. It was a closed system. I had a low budget and got some 2 inch black iron pipe for free and insulated it with fiberglass and plastic with some styrofoam under it. It ran about 80 ft above ground. Never had a problem, but, I had to keep it fired 24/ 7. I do remember running out of wood too early one yr and desperatly collecting wood pallets to cut up and burn. A real pain in the butt. Now its inside the basement after lining a chimney etc, etc, etc. So, it will work, but its not ideal, thats for sure.

Mike

 

[heaterman]

Been thinkin'....... I don't know your situation with water table. If it's simply not an option you could probably go above ground by placing an extremely good tube in a chase of some kind that is sealed absolutely water tight. Lot's of insulated products out there that seem good but if you look at them closely you'll see that along the sides of the tubes there is an inch or less of foam between the tube and the outside of the jacket. I tend to shy away from those. Look for something that gives you a little more than the bare minimum and you'll be OK with running above ground. If you're in Minnesota give Kenny Oaks a ring on the www at [email protected] He can hook you up with some Microflex which IMHO is the best stuff I have run across.

Good luck with whatever route you take.

 

[leaddog]

Been thinkin'....... I don't know your situation with water table. If it's simply not an option you could probably go above ground by placing an extremely good tube in a chase of some kind that is sealed absolutely water tight. Lot's of insulated products out there that seem good but if you look at them closely you'll see that along the sides of the tubes there is an inch or less of foam between the tube and the outside of the jacket. I tend to shy away from those. Look for something that gives you a little more than the bare minimum and you'll be OK with running above ground. If you're in Minnesota give Kenny Oaks a ring on the www at [email protected] He can hook you up with some Microflex which IMHO is the best stuff I have run across.

Good luck with whatever route you take.

You could make a box out of treated lumber and sprayfoam your lines in that. Just remember that the outside air temp is alot lower than ground temp so you could have a temp difference of 80* lower than the ground temp so heat loss would be greater and your lines would solidify sooner if there wasn't any btu's being imputed over a time period. Maybe not a major problem as pex can take minor freezing ?????????? but not something you want and for sure not something to happen very often. I would want atleast 4in per side and maybe 6.
leaddog

 

[Tony H]

One other consideration besides the massive heat loss is UV protection , most of the pipe on the market is not designed for outside use in sunlight. Make sure yours is or cover it so the sun does not break it down.

 

[ihookem]

I would buy a wood burner just for the shop. Most likely a free standing wood burner. I don't know your situation but it seems to make sense instead of 700 bucks just for the pipe. Having it above ground might be very inefficient in winter having pipe above ground. If the pipe breaks it will cost a bunch in anti freeze too. Whatever you do I hope it works.

 

[mwk1000]

I have a 75' run above ground , I insulated it well, but I was not thinking about the temp diffrence between the ground and air when I put it in. I see about 8-9 degree drop from my boiler to my tank HX. I reinsulated and that is about 7-8 now. I will be adding two more sensors out at the boiler this year so I will have a better figure, now I have sensors on the HX but I am using the temp readings on the boiler so there may be some error. Still I don't think I will get close to the very low losses I have read on this forum. I will just have to live with it for now but I don't like the idea of all those BTU's heating the geat outdoors. I use no-burst in the boiler/lines that also lowers the heat capacity ( but that was planned at least ).