Analysis Paralysis-Which Boiler?

[MapleLeaf]

As a long time lurker,I wanted to start by saying what a great forum this is,with many selfless helpful people. Kudos to all.

As a carpenter & G/C,I am unable to contribute much to the forum(yet),but have been trying to decide which boiler is 'right" before jumping in and making the wrong choice.
I am in the process of of completing family home on 37 acres of mature maple,with a seemingly endless supply of hardwood.
Fred Seton designed,and we installed a radiant staple up system on first two floors(4100sq ft) and in slab for basement and attached garages(3000 sq ft).Heated by a Takagi 200k btu on demand tankless. Lots of glass and high ceilings.Will be adding a 1500 sq ft shop(inslab radiant) to house the boiler...but that may be next year(already snowed up here with more to come soon)
Based on 20 btu /sq ft,it seems I will need @172,00 btu.Most here advise to not oversize,and I know radiant is more effective w/ a wood boiler

I was originally sold on the Seton boiler as described by Fred.Load it twice a day with long green wood and forget about it...beautiful!!
This forum has made me understand that it's never that simple.

Friends have advised me to buy a temporary 4k OWB which will roughly equal my propane bill this season.Run it for a few years,sell it(or throw it out)
Tempting,but with 2 homes w/i 700',I don't feel that is a neighbourly option.

The newer CB style epa OWB look interesting,but are untested and not cheap.
I think Seton boiler could be an option with recent updates to construction,but some of those creosote issues look scary.
WoodGuns look nice for my situation,but lack of availability and collapse of the Can$ deter.
Ideally,I'd like to temp house a boiler in a small shed and run w/o storage for a year or two.However,due to time constraints I won't be able to tend the fire three times a day.
Which brings me to the EKO.
I was looking at an EKO40(@$7500 Canadian),price is decent but was unsure how many times a day it would need to be loaded and whether it was enough btu.
Seems it can do some idling (better than Seton?) but was looking for some real world user advice based on my specs.
Thanks to all who make this forum the best resourse I've found.
Greg

 

[deerefanatic]

Glad to have you greg.

I cant really help you with sizing info, but can tell you that the Seton/Greenwood is a love/hate machine. People either love them or hate them..... They have their place, don't give me wrong; but no boiler is going to operate good with green wood... Dry is a must. (EVEN for outdoor boilers, most people don't realize how much less wood and smoke they'd have if they used dry wood in their OWB's.)

 

[leaddog]

Likewize I'm not an expert on sizing but a eko-40 sounds to small. I think you really need an eko-60. I would suggest you call Dave at cozyheat and talk to him. He should be able to steer you better as to what size and he is very good to work with.
leaddog

 

[deerefanatic]

Yep, dave is a good guy to deal with.

 

[Eric Johnson]

With the right amount of storage and the correct piping strategy, you can get an EKO (or any other dowdraft gasifier, for that matter) into a load-once-a-day routine. Even less frequent in warmer weather.

 

[MapleLeaf]

Sizing on the EKO is tricky as I fall dead smack between the 40 and 60.
Based on what I have read here,less is often more(especially to avoid over idling)
Being that I have 16 zones that won't always be screaming for heat simultaneously,I thought erring on the light side may be best.
That said,I'm not attached to the EKO should someone feel another suits my needs more .
I haven't seen too many posters with a 100% radiant layout,especially with a staple up config on a two storey(plus/walkout basement)
If I can't find someone more local (Ontario),I'll definately give Dave a ring.
Thanks

 

[Nofossil]

Sizing on the EKO is tricky as I fall dead smack between the 40 and 60.
Based on what I have read here,less is often more(especially to avoid over idling)
Being that I have 16 zones that won't always be screaming for heat simultaneously,I thought erring on the light side may be best.
That said,I'm not attached to the EKO should someone feel another suits my needs more .
I haven't seen too many posters with a 100% radiant layout,especially with a staple up config on a two storey(plus/walkout basement)
If I can't find someone more local (Ontario),I'll definately give Dave a ring.
Thanks

A BTU is a BTU, whether delivered via radiant or any other way. Do you have enough history from the Takagi to verify your heating load? Typically, your peak daily load will be about twice your heating season average load. Unless you want the Takagi to fill in the peak load, you'll want to size your boiler at least a bit larger than the peak.

Where radiant really helps is if you use storage. Radiant zones can deliver usable heat at much lower water temperatures than baseboards, so a given volume of stored water contains a good deal more usable heat.

In an all-radiant installation, you can also run the boiler with a cooler outlet temperature which yields a bit more efficiency - lower stack temps.

 

[MapleLeaf]

Unfortunately,the Takagi hasn't been operated yet under finished conditions,or in the dead of winter.
Last March,running semi insulated and full bore,it ate up a ton of propane.Scary!
Fred said 200,000 btu was overkill,but as this is a 92% eff modulating Takagi,not to worry.

The beauty of zoned radiant is the less used rooms can be kept @55-60F saving $$
With staple up however,the optimum operating temp s/b 130-140F on cold nights,less(120F) say this time of year(40F day,32F at night)
If I go the EKO option w/o storage for a few years,then the 60 might be the safest route(and less tending to fires I presume)
My concern then is creosote issues and how the EKO preforms on longer idles?...And,as mentioned,how big a slave will I be to feeding it.
I know storage will alleviate all these issues,but as with most these days,$$ are tight,and storage expensive.
Im guessing a dual tube 120 gallon indirect wouldn't suffice for my load?(as eventually the Takagi will provide simply DHW and backup)

 

[Medman]

Greg, there is an Ontario EKO dealer more local to you, in Markdale. I had his number but cannot find it now. If I recall, he is running an EKO in his shop space. Perhaps someone else could direct you to him or you could search the forum for EKO dealers in ontario. I spoke with him when I was searching for insurance options, but he could not help me with that. As for Dave at Cozy Heat, he is the best resource for the EKO, Tarm, Biomass, Attack and Heatmor I have encountered. Because I am close to him up here, only 90 miles away, I purchased all my equipment from him.

Good Luck in your search!

 

[MapleLeaf]

Greg, there is an Ontario EKO dealer more local to you, in Markdale. I had his number but cannot find it now. If I recall, he is running an EKO in his shop space. Perhaps someone else could direct you to him or you could search the forum for EKO dealers in ontario. I spoke with him when I was searching for insurance options, but he could not help me with that. As for Dave at Cozy Heat, he is the best resource for the EKO, Tarm, Biomass, Attack and Heatmor I have encountered. Because I am close to him up here, only 90 miles away, I purchased all my equipment from him.

Good Luck in your search!

Thanks Medman.
Found it in the back threads(Dan Dmytryshym - 519 986 1991 FYI for Ontario-@Owen Sound)
Dan said the Can$ is killing him/us and will have to get back w/price and availability.(ie.. they have gone way up)
Maybe by the time storage/building/stainless stack etc is factored in,a new epa approved OWB might make sense.
Only wish they had a track record.

 

[Medman]

You are right about the dollar - when I ordered/paid for my boiler in Aug the exchange was 7 cents on the dollar - on Thurs last week it was 28% at the bank! I dodged a bullet on that one for sure. But I also ordered my air handler in from the US with the A/C coil installed. Now I have to buy the compressor/condenser for outside. It's going to cost me about $250 more now than in Aug. Oh well.

Keep us posted on your progress - especially pricing. I think that you will find the echange rate will affect all manufacturers, unless the Canadian distributor has stock on hand from the summer.

 

[MapleLeaf]

Well,after lots of research and the continued weakening of the Can $,I went for the temp solution and bought a used Heatmor 200 OWB to use for a couple seasons use until I build my garage and weigh options then.
I figure the new Outdoor gassifiers s/b proven w/i two years and I will also have the option of moving indoors w/ the EKO.
Next problem is designing the most effective system to integrate into the Takagi TH1.
Both Fred Seton and my local radiant troubleshooter both recomend an open system due to simplicity/cost savings,but I'm worried that muti-circ water mixing with my DWH is not worth the health risks.
Again,my knowledge is minimal on this,but it seems a indirect dual coil water heater(exp; 75 gal LaarsStorSS) would allow me to connect and isolate the OWB and Takagi.Perhaps even give me freeze protection on the OWB by running a constant low circ when away.
Is this more effecient than two plate exchangers,or one plate exhanger/sidearm on electric hwt.
I'm not concerned about heating the DHW with only the Takagi as it's pretty effecient and I won't be burning in the summer anyway.

Seems things are never as simple as I'd like to think and was looking for some advice from the seasoned vets around here.
Thanks for the help.

 

[MapleLeaf]

Has anybody ever heard of using a dual coil indirect water heater as prev. mentioned in this sort of application?Would this work in anyones opinion?