Another OAK Thought..
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Maybe the dealer doesn't care what the stove manufacturer thinks you should do. This is directly from P.9 of your owners manual:
"Outside Air:
Harman Home Heating and Hearth & Home Technologies
recommend attaching outside air in all
installations, especially lower level and main floor
locations."
IMO, I think I'd tend to listen to the company that makes the stove over the dealer.
"Outside Air:
Harman Home Heating and Hearth & Home Technologies
recommend attaching outside air in all
installations, especially lower level and main floor
locations."
IMO, I think I'd tend to listen to the company that makes the stove over the dealer.
save$
Minister of Fire
My dealer also didn't recommend the OAK. In fact, he kind of made me feel silly thinking it was a good idea. (he installed the stove and didn't leave a stove manual with me.) Two years later, I now have OAK. Big difference. I wouldn't trust any dealer or installer who didn't follow the manufacturer's recommendations. Unless your dealer is giving you one hell of a good price, I would go elsewhere where I could get advice I could depend on. Type in OAK in the search Forums block in the upper left of this page. There are several recent postings on the subject that should remove any doubts you may be having concerning the merits of installing OAK.
Once you get your stove in, please post some Pic's and tell us how you are doing with it.
Once you get your stove in, please post some Pic's and tell us how you are doing with it.
Wi Thundercat
Feeling the Heat
gfreek said:
I bought my direct-temp from a seller on ebay. Think the name was DJ's heating. Sure there are others will chime in on this soon.
exoilburner
Feeling the Heat
My dealer said the same thing "no OAK needed". But I put one on anyway. From what others have said on the forums most dealers say no OAK is needed. I don't get it.
Hello
I found that by not sending room air up the flue, I can heat the house quicker and on 1 less heat setting (Auger Feed Rate) than without the OAK! Sure the dealer does not care if you use less pellets! Would you like another Ton of pellets sir? No thanks I have an OAK!!
So the Boiler has an OAK, the LP fireplace has an OAK (That is required) and the pellet stove has an OAK
That saves money!
Oh Well, that is my comments.
I found that by not sending room air up the flue, I can heat the house quicker and on 1 less heat setting (Auger Feed Rate) than without the OAK! Sure the dealer does not care if you use less pellets! Would you like another Ton of pellets sir? No thanks I have an OAK!!
So the Boiler has an OAK, the LP fireplace has an OAK (That is required) and the pellet stove has an OAK
That saves money!Oh Well, that is my comments.
My dealer said "Don't do the OAK" as well. I already was pretty set on doing one, and then as imacman said, when I read in my Harman owners manual that they recommend it, I said F the dealer and ordered one.
The more I spoke with the dealer and did research online, the more I realized how mis-informed my dealer is. It's crazy stuff. I don't get how you can be in a business and not know what you're talking about and/or give out blatantly wrong information.
The more I spoke with the dealer and did research online, the more I realized how mis-informed my dealer is. It's crazy stuff. I don't get how you can be in a business and not know what you're talking about and/or give out blatantly wrong information.
This site needs to have sticky about OAK'S I think the best heating works by installing them. I got one on my stove and it works great. Dealer's should know better then to say you don't need one. Company's that make these stove's know what works with their products. If the manual say's to install OAK, then the dealer should follow up on the install.
rona
Minister of Fire
If your air for combustion is always at a certain temp such as the inside air of your home the stove will have less burning problems.
When you are bringing outside air which can vary from +40 to -30 in to burn there will be a big difference in how the stove runs and it can create problems. Your dealer doesn't want to be called back for service work so he will recommend inside air. It is also a extra cost that could break a 'deal".
Cold air holds more oxygen then hot air and you should tune the stove accordingly to get the best heat out of your unit.
I would never install a stove without outside air as I hate to waste heat.
When you are bringing outside air which can vary from +40 to -30 in to burn there will be a big difference in how the stove runs and it can create problems. Your dealer doesn't want to be called back for service work so he will recommend inside air. It is also a extra cost that could break a 'deal".
Cold air holds more oxygen then hot air and you should tune the stove accordingly to get the best heat out of your unit.
I would never install a stove without outside air as I hate to waste heat.
Hello Rona
That is true about the temperature of the outside air making a difference. Also if the outside air contains moisture, that can cause the ash in the burn pot to cake up. I have almost a 15 foot OAK to help temper the outside air. I am also thinking about creating an air tank with a trash can to help warm the air like an Indirect Water tank on a boiler.
Still by using an OAK the house warms up faster and stays warm on one lower heat setting than without the OAK.
That is true about the temperature of the outside air making a difference. Also if the outside air contains moisture, that can cause the ash in the burn pot to cake up. I have almost a 15 foot OAK to help temper the outside air. I am also thinking about creating an air tank with a trash can to help warm the air like an Indirect Water tank on a boiler.
Still by using an OAK the house warms up faster and stays warm on one lower heat setting than without the OAK.
Does anyone know how hot a burn pot temp really is. OAK only helps with draft in the house. No OAK more draft with cracks, air space ext. Think you will find OAK air temps going to the burn pot temp 900 to 1900 degs. not going to make a lot diff. on the burn pot temp. Don't beleave it? check the stack temp.
vgrund
Feeling the Heat
My dealer also questioned an OAK for my installation. I ignored them and insisted they install one, which they did. It is interesting that so many dealers consistently ignore the advantages of OAKs when advising their customers. I don't know if it is plain ignorance, some perceived complexity in future support or desire to simplify installs and thus have more installs per day (or some variation of that).
Multiple your square footage by ceiling height to get cubic feet, then divide by the CFM of the combustion fan. That's how many minutes it will take to exchange all of the expensively heated air in the house. This really is a no-brainer.
Other than that initial hesitation to install an OAK, I'm very pleased with my dealer's work and later support. I have since sent a few other customers to them, but rest assured each one of them has had an education from me on the topic of OAKs.
Multiple your square footage by ceiling height to get cubic feet, then divide by the CFM of the combustion fan. That's how many minutes it will take to exchange all of the expensively heated air in the house. This really is a no-brainer.
Other than that initial hesitation to install an OAK, I'm very pleased with my dealer's work and later support. I have since sent a few other customers to them, but rest assured each one of them has had an education from me on the topic of OAKs.
Say your stove consumed 100cfm for combustion air which doesn't seem like much. In a day that is only 144,000 CUBIC feet of air oO(yeah you read that right bunches of thousands of feet of cold air). Now comes the mindset that it is still of no issue because the house isn't sealed up really well and will have no effect on the actual pellet stove burn which can be true. If you create a negative pressure area the air coming in to fill that will come in with more velocity and cool off the areas around it.
I still do not have an outside air kit but I do have the kit ordered and the how to run it portion figured out. I wasn't too 'worried' about it until I started running the numbers.
I did have an energy audit a couple years ago and have done a sizeable amount of home sealing but still have a ways to go. In the energy audit the auditor placed a cfm hood on my insulation contact recessed lights and each one was leaking from between 5-7 cfm each which 'yawn' big deal right. I have 14 lights which is only 120,000cfm coming or going from the attic DAILY. I was instructed to purchase 14 styrofoam cheapie coolers and a few cans of spray foam a rock and a brick or something heavy and cut each cooler to fit and foam it in place and stick a brick on it till it set up. This allows enough air around the light that it won't get hot and trip out but still seals things up. There are also trim rings that seal and are a nice option and keep you out of the attic but are more expensive than the coolers.
Every dollar you spend to try to keep the air you heated in will pay for itself rather quickly.
EDIT: I did want to mention that styrofoam coolers can be a code issue in some areas. Some inspectors see no issue as long as the insulation covers or is mounded over them and others I am sure would be against them. The cost on the air tight covers are coming down as more places are manufacturing them and either way will pay for itself in efficiency rather quickly and the house will have a lot less dust floating around.
I still do not have an outside air kit but I do have the kit ordered and the how to run it portion figured out. I wasn't too 'worried' about it until I started running the numbers.
I did have an energy audit a couple years ago and have done a sizeable amount of home sealing but still have a ways to go. In the energy audit the auditor placed a cfm hood on my insulation contact recessed lights and each one was leaking from between 5-7 cfm each which 'yawn' big deal right. I have 14 lights which is only 120,000cfm coming or going from the attic DAILY. I was instructed to purchase 14 styrofoam cheapie coolers and a few cans of spray foam a rock and a brick or something heavy and cut each cooler to fit and foam it in place and stick a brick on it till it set up. This allows enough air around the light that it won't get hot and trip out but still seals things up. There are also trim rings that seal and are a nice option and keep you out of the attic but are more expensive than the coolers.
Every dollar you spend to try to keep the air you heated in will pay for itself rather quickly.
EDIT: I did want to mention that styrofoam coolers can be a code issue in some areas. Some inspectors see no issue as long as the insulation covers or is mounded over them and others I am sure would be against them. The cost on the air tight covers are coming down as more places are manufacturing them and either way will pay for itself in efficiency rather quickly and the house will have a lot less dust floating around.
vgrund
Feeling the Heat
That's an interesting technique for air sealing recessed lighting. I doubt it would be code compliant even with IC rated cans... Polystyrene is classified according to DIN4102 as a "B3" product, meaning highly flammable or "easily ignited."
checkthisout
Feeling the Heat
New here.
Has anybody thought it might be a good idea to heat the the OAK with the exhaust gas? Simple experimentation could be done by simply getting some more tubing and laying it in front of the exhaust and allowing it to heat the tube to see if it makes any difference in the amount of pellets consumed.
I just purchased a new stove and was rather taken aback by how hot the exhaust gas was during test-firing.
I think there is lots of room there for heat recovery for people with some decent fabrication and a little ambition to stay busy during the winter-doldrums.
With a forced exhaust it would seem you could suck out as much as you want without any negative impact on stove operation. (VS say a stack robber on a wood stove which tends to kill your draft).
Just some thoughts.
Has anybody thought it might be a good idea to heat the the OAK with the exhaust gas? Simple experimentation could be done by simply getting some more tubing and laying it in front of the exhaust and allowing it to heat the tube to see if it makes any difference in the amount of pellets consumed.
I just purchased a new stove and was rather taken aback by how hot the exhaust gas was during test-firing.
I think there is lots of room there for heat recovery for people with some decent fabrication and a little ambition to stay busy during the winter-doldrums.
With a forced exhaust it would seem you could suck out as much as you want without any negative impact on stove operation. (VS say a stack robber on a wood stove which tends to kill your draft).
Just some thoughts.
Hello
My heat & Glo fireplace has double walled flue direct vent that heats the incoming air. They make that for pellet stoves also.
My Avalon Astoria has the OAK plenum run along the warm bottom of the stove and has a square hole in the side to bring in warm air. After I blocked the square hole I found caked ash in the burn pot on the lowest heat setting in the fall burning months!
So that proves warm dry outside air is best for burning, but sometimes getting the outside air warm and dry is tricky!!
My heat & Glo fireplace has double walled flue direct vent that heats the incoming air. They make that for pellet stoves also.
My Avalon Astoria has the OAK plenum run along the warm bottom of the stove and has a square hole in the side to bring in warm air. After I blocked the square hole I found caked ash in the burn pot on the lowest heat setting in the fall burning months!
So that proves warm dry outside air is best for burning, but sometimes getting the outside air warm and dry is tricky!!
Whatever, regarding the OAK. I know that my stove now works better in every way with the outside air installed. This is after running the stove for the 2.5 previous years without an OAK.
Lineman30
Feeling the Heat
nosaudioil said:
I will 100% agree. I ran the stove 3 seasons without it and never knew what an improvement it makes. I have no drafts and my burn is much richer in strength and color.
exoilburner
Feeling the Heat
rona said:
Don2222 said:
rona & Don
Thanks for the dealer's perspective on this. Never could figure out why dealers were against OAKs. What you say makes sense from their point of view.
Wi Thundercat
Feeling the Heat
Checkthisout said:New here.
Has anybody thought it might be a good idea to heat the the OAK with the exhaust gas? Simple experimentation could be done by simply getting some more tubing and laying it in front of the exhaust and allowing it to heat the tube to see if it makes any difference in the amount of pellets consumed.
I just purchased a new stove and was rather taken aback by how hot the exhaust gas was during test-firing.
I think there is lots of room there for heat recovery for people with some decent fabrication and a little ambition to stay busy during the winter-doldrums.
With a forced exhaust it would seem you could suck out as much as you want without any negative impact on stove operation. (VS say a stack robber on a wood stove which tends to kill your draft).
Just some thoughts.
Have been heating my outside air with the exhaust from the beginning. Using selkirk direct-temp Multi-fuel venting. 4" exhaust pipe inside of a 6 1/2" pipe bringing in fresh air. Works great and only one hole in the exterior of the house. Google it. ;-)
Picked up Harman P38+ today, pre burned. Dealer tech said OAK is OK if thats what I wanted. Connect it to stove fitting or set it close to the fitting, said it can frost up. OK. Ordered Selkirk Direct Temp Up and Out Kit, vent pipe inner , outside air outer pipe. Ordering vertical pipe, then install. Baby Steps...
Wi Thundercat
Feeling the Heat
gfreek said:
Thats the same kit i bought with a 36" pipe for horizonal and an 18" to go through the wall. The fresh air flex is 3" so i went to auto parts store and got a reducer as the stove was closer to 2". Only used screws and high temp sealer on the stove adaptor,none on the joints and it has been leak free from the start. Also made a clean out with pipe fittings just like the one selkirk sells but alot cheaper. Ash vac hose fits snug over it for a quick clean of the tee between major cleanings. Have never had any frost or condensation any where with this set up, even at -30 temps.
dsnedegar3
Member
I have a Quad Mount Vernon AE and recently had it on high to heat the house quickly. I just happened to walk by my front door, and thought it was left open. It turns out it was closed and the air being sucked through the was ridiculous (no wonder it seems so drafty). Anyone running an oak up through the chimney with a Quad? The manual shows this as an option, but my dealer says I don't need it and besides there is no chimney cap option that supports it.
vgrund
Feeling the Heat
My Mont Vernon AE insert has an OAK. My dealer didn't voice any problems with terminating the two liners w/ a cap.
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