Chimney code heads

[tiber]

OK installers, this ones for you.

My township, Lower Providence in Pennsylvania, is a bunch of layabouts who can't be bothered to pick up the phone or mail me back. Of course if I need an inspection for insurance.

I caught up with the one inspector after a long wait after physically going to the township building to take hostages, he said the plan to go via the garage "probably wouldn't fly".
"So is that a no?"
"Uhm, I'd have to check, you would probably have to chase it".
I left my contact information and no-ones bothered to call me back.

Being a garage, my interpretation of the code is that this is not a "living space", so "attic rules" apply (ventilation required, no chase required). Given that my ego is huge, but that townships have preemption, I was wondering if my interpretation of the code is consistent with your experience. Before anyone says "You can't go into a garage", I'm allowed to go through a garage but not operate a stove in one. That parts clear. The question is what are the protection requirements and if garages are generally treated as living spaces or not.

I have a weird feeling the guy just approves whatever and I'm being far too paranoid about what will fly or not.

So help me god if they rule a garage is a living space and thus requires a chase I'm going to the township to have the square footage added to the legal total so I can resell the house with all the extra space.

 

[Fsappo]

The tough part here, and I'm sure that other retailers have seen the same thing, is that regardless of what the NFPA211 says, the final decision comes down to the official doing the inspection. I have seen decisions impacted by mood, personal feelings, lack of a bribe (on Long Island) or the inspector just going by what his uncle Jed taught him instead of picking up the NFPA211. The thing is, it's a no win situation. I have proven quite a few inspectors wrong by quoting the NFPA211. The end up putting you on their "List" and giving extra "attention" to the jobs you do. It always helps to handle everyone with a badge, plastic or not, with kid gloves. Be sure not to insult their ego.

That being said, I just skimmed thru the whole of the NFPA211 and could not find a reference or definition of "living space" or "garage" I did some general searching online on the subject and could find an answer. As far as I'm concerned, when we install a solid fuel vent thru a garage area, we enclose it with 5/8" s/r. The reason being, if there are combustible gases in the garage (gas tank, etc) and there was a chimney breach or fire..blah blah. What the hell, just buy some rock and lumber and close it in.

 

[tiber]

Whats the going rate for a bribe in long island?

With regards to drywall, the chimney is covered under a mechanical permit here, while drywall is covered under construction. I do feel like they're fishing me for more money since we're talking a few hundred dollars difference for the permits ($80 for mechanical, $375 for construction + plans). While I feel you have a good concern for "doing it right", I'd have to use a vapor barrier to keep out gasoline fumes and frankly if we're talking an out and out fire, the vapor barrier isn't going to last too long. My feelings were that "properly vented" was much more important than enclosed. It's already vented to the 9s for working on cars so I can't help but feel this is redundant. I store the gasoline under the deck anyway since I get nervous about that stuff around the welding equipment.

 

[Fsappo]

"you" might have all the bases covered. I dont count on my customers having the bases covered. So i wasnt so much telling you what you should do, only what our company would require if we were doing the installation.

Like I said, it's gonna come down to the "man" and my point is sometimes winning a small victory by proving the man wrong may bite you in the ass later on. Now, if the different is $350, thats a decent chunk of change. I guess you just need to be diplomatic when dealing with him. Coffee and cake when you go to his office.

 

[firefighterjake]

Hmmm . . . good question.

I'm not the primary Fire Inspector here in Bangor . . . I would guess however that if someone wanted to do this the primary Fire Inspector would want to have the flue enclosed in a chase -- as Franks mentioned -- sheetrocked and taped with attention paid to clearances . . . the idea being as Franks mentioned to minimize any contact with flammable vapors . . . and from the Inspector's standpoint they tend to want to err on the side of caution (sometimes being overly cautious) since you generally don't have lawsuits filed against you for being too cautious, but when there is a serious incident and someone ends up getting hurt then there is a greater likelihood of a lawsuit . . . hence the reason many inspectors tend to be more cautious than less cautious.

That said . . . this is just a guess on my part and the funny thing about the code is that it often comes down to what the Inspector thinks . . . and how they interpret the code . . . which is why it's pretty important to get a ruling one way or another. As Franks said I see Inspectors all the time . . . I'm happy to say I really like our Fire Inspector in this City . . . his one fault may be his over cautious nature, but when it comes to trying to be fair and impartial he does a good job -- he reads the codes and doesn't give off-the-cuff answers if he doesn't know the answer to questions and he is hyper-aware of the issues of bribery to the point where he refuses folks that offer him a free cup of coffee or soda . . . even though I suspect this is simply folks being nice. This inspector really tries to be fair with everyone -- even with folks who continually challenge him or attempt to provoke him . . . he is willing to listen to their interpretations and truly doesn't have a power trip . . . and when he requests something to be changed he explains the reasoning behind the requirement.

This said . . . he is a person . . . and no one is perfect . . . and since the code can sometimes be interpreted differently by different people sometimes he and I disagree on some points. For example, he requires listed floor protection for every woodstove and pelletstove . . . even if ember protection is only required by the manufacturer. He interprets the code to require this -- I would not. However, in this case I don't think it is a bad idea -- for a few bucks a home owner can buy a sheet or two of 1/2 listed Durock and exceed the manufacturer's specs and have an installation that exceeds specs.

Another inspector (not a fire inspector) on the other hand is quite the piece of work . . . I have seen him require folks to do things that they are not required to do . . . not because he is being overly cautious, but rather because he thinks they are supposed to do those things . . . and if questioned his large ego comes out . . . of course this is also the guy who loves to flash his wallet badge . . . and yeah, sadly I am not kidding . . . he really does love to flash his badge. If he likes you, he'll do his hardest to let some things slip or make accomodations, but if he doesn't like you he'll be all over you. Not a role model I choose to emulate.

 

[begreen]

This is a good time to put one's ego on the shelf. Often these inspectors have a lot on their plate and not enough hours to cover all the work they need to do. The chase is probably a good idea, I would do it. It seems that the only issue is the construction permit. I would think that this is not required. The chase is in no way structural. It is essentially an equipment cabinet.

Personally, I'd skip the construction permit and just take out the mechanical. Be sure that the framing for the chase is at least 2" away from the class A pipe. (Better yet, use metal studs to frame it.) Then go ahead and install. Leave the front sheetrock panel of the chase screwed on temporarily with just a couple screws so that it can be removed for inspection. On inspection day, greet him pleasantly. Treat him like a human being and be grateful for his advice. Let him inspect, sign off on it and be done. I doubt he will raise the issue of a construction permit at all. Worth a try to see.

 

[Fsappo]

What BG said + have coffee and cake on hand.

 

[tiber]

I LOVES CAKE.

I hadn't considered that I may be able to side step the construction permit, and you're correct that it's in no way structural and it just sort of hangs out. Actually I've been reading a lot of the catalogs at the stove shop, for the seriously lazy they now sell prefab steel chases you can purchase and use. Let me see if I can get this approved with only a mechanical permit... hmmm...

The wife says "but we'll lose a bay of the garage to the piping". We already lose a bay of the garage to all the tools and lawn crap.