Clicking / popping noise from Aceteline regulator - Problem????

[Gooserider]

I have among my tool collection, an oxy-aceteline setup that I use occasionally, mostly for heating metal prior to beating on it, or to deal with stubborn bolts, etc. I don't use it very often, and it normally lives in my portable garage. Today I dragged it out to work on straightening out a couple parts in my newly aquired chipper / shredder, and noticed something that I'm not sure is a problem or not...

The aceteline regulator was making a constant clicking or popping noise as I was burning. (I don't remember it ever doing this before)

It didn't matter what I did with the oxy setting.

If I cranked the aceteline torch open more the clicking got faster, or slower if I turned it down.

If I turned the aceteline up to around 10 lbs the noise would go away, but this was WAY too rich for the torch.

I was running a cutting head, just using the preheat flame with the oxy at 20 psi, and the aceteline at 5 psi.

Aside from the noise, the torch ran fine, nice steady flame, easy to control, no flickering, etc.

Not sure off hand what brand the regulators are, but they are (according to the welding shop that sold them to me) good quality, brass, US made - NOT cheap Asian junk... They may be the lower end "Victor" models

Essentially I'm concerned about whether or not this is a problem, and if it is, what needs to be done about it...

I'm not sure just what the tank sizes are, but the oxy tank is about the size of a SCUBA tank, with the matching size aceteline tank - according to the shop this is the largest size that is sold to people (as opposed to rental contracts like they have on the big tanks)

Gooserider

 

[JustWood]

You need a new tip, me thinx. Sounds like you may have a piece of "sheet" metal up in 'ere. :gulp:

 

[flyingcow]

That's my first thought.

 

[kevin j]

if the tip is dirty or gets overheated, or you are getting flashback, the snapping and popping is more at the tip area. but I would run the tip cleaner through it or try with a welding tip and see if it does the same. cutting tips get spatter in them. you don't use it like a hammer to knock off the last bit of cut off mettal do you? not that I would ever do that.... never mind.

Does it sound metallic, like opening and closing of the valve right in the regulator? how fast is it making the noise?
It is possible that the back checks at the handle cause chattering of the regulator. remove that one ant try again as a test.

if you isolate it to regulator noise I would take it in for rebuild. not cheap, I think they get 60/per reg here to rebuild, but it is dealing combustible gases and the potential for big booms.

kcj

 

[LLigetfa]

I think Goose knows the difference between noise at a dirty tip and a clicking regulator. My guess is there was a bit of oxidation on the atmosphere side of the internal parts and they just are not moving as smooth as they should. As long as the end result is pulses of too much pressure and not the opposite, I think that there isn't a safety issue. Just don't go oiling the regulators! See if they smooth out from more use and store them in a dry place.

 

[Gooserider]

The noise is definitely from the regulator, NOT the torch. It is definitely from the aceteline side, not the oxy side - I still get the clicking with the oxy off, but the aceteline on, and not the other way around.

The clicking speed varies depending on just how I have the regulator set, and how much flow I have set the torch for, the more gas, the faster the clicks; less gas slower. I would guesstimate that the lowest flow I could get a flame on would click every 3-4 seconds, cranking it up to a very high flow a couple times a second. At the speed I was working with, they were probably doing about one click per second.

I saw no visible needle movement on the regulator guage when it clicked.

I have been storing the entire setup in our portable garage (along with a lot of other stuff) both because it has room there, and because I'm not completely comfortable with storing the tanks in the attached house garage. As such it can be humid, and there are a lot of temperature swings, but no direct water.

However the oxidation theory does make sense. (And I'm not Pook, I know better than to oil regulators :coolsmirk: )

Gooserider

 

[Corey]

Don't suppose you stored the tanks laying down? The acetylene tank is actually acetylene dissolved in acetone (think of CO2 dissolved in soda pop) because pure acetylene is unstable over ~15 psi. There is also an inert porous material in the tank such as charcoal or balsa wood. When you use the acetylene, you're slowly letting the gas 'fizz' out of the acetone solution. If the cylinder has been stored on its side the material near the top of the tank becomes saturated with acetone, and/or if you try to pull the gas out too fast (ie big tip with small acetylene bottle) - some of the acetone can spray into the regulator and cause a knocking noise as the slugs of liquid purge through. (think lots of soda pop fizz!)

I don't know if this is your exact issue, but you want to either store the tanks upright or at least set them upright a few hours before intended use. This is not such a big issue with normal tanks which are always secured upright in a torch dolly, but sometimes the small tanks can be stored every-which-way.

 

[mjbrown]

goose ,
if the torches just sit idle more than they are used, then it may be time to have the regulators rebuilt. i believe , and will stand corrected if wrong , that there are o- rings of some sort in there and they may have dried out and cracked. if they are victors, thenthey are the good ones and are certainly rebuildable....i do agree with another poster about not using oil on them though,we get preached at about this at the company i work for.


everyone please correct me if i am wrong, i am a welder of 25 yrs, not a burner, i burn well enough to be an awesome grinder.

mike

 

[Gooserider]

Don't suppose you stored the tanks laying down? The acetylene tank is actually acetylene dissolved in acetone (think of CO2 dissolved in soda pop) because pure acetylene is unstable over ~15 psi. There is also an inert porous material in the tank such as charcoal or balsa wood. When you use the acetylene, you're slowly letting the gas 'fizz' out of the acetone solution. If the cylinder has been stored on its side the material near the top of the tank becomes saturated with acetone, and/or if you try to pull the gas out too fast (ie big tip with small acetylene bottle) - some of the acetone can spray into the regulator and cause a knocking noise as the slugs of liquid purge through. (think lots of soda pop fizz!)

I don't know if this is your exact issue, but you want to either store the tanks upright or at least set them upright a few hours before intended use. This is not such a big issue with normal tanks which are always secured upright in a torch dolly, but sometimes the small tanks can be stored every-which-way.

I have to transport the tanks laying down, but otherwise they stay upright at all times, or close to it - I built a welding cart as one of my first "teach myself to weld" projects, and so they may get tilted slightly when moving the cart around - but not for long or very much... I was only running about 5 psi on the withdrawal pressure, and a pretty low opening on the torch.

Pook, the clicking happens regardless of whether I've got the torch lit or not.

Mike - I agree although I did try calling my gas dealer, they said I needed to bring the regulators in so they could see them, as they hadn't heard of the problem before. However they said that the lower end Victors are in expensive enough that it isn't worth rebuilding them - which makes some sense; as I recall I only paid about $150 for the whole set of both regulators, hoses and torch... I think the guy said a bare regulator was only about $60, so it wasn't worth rebuilding them.

One test I haven't done yet, but need to, is to see if the regulator will hold pressure with the torch and tank both turned off - I'm pretty sure it did, but I wasn't really checking that so I am not certain. It definitely didn't have any leaks that I could hear.

Gooserider

 

[BJN644]

I think the oil issue is mainly for the oxygen side. As you probably know petroleum and a strong oxidizer, like pure oxygen, equals spontaneous combustion.

 

[Gooserider]

Well just tried the leakdown test, (set a pressure, turn off both gas and torch, see if it holds) mixed results... It didn't drop while I was watching it, but over the course of a couple hours it dropped down to the point where the high side was at zero, and the low side was down to about a pound.

One other note - I remembered wrong on the regulator brand, they aren't Victors, they are "Metalcraft" - however I seem to recall that was the Victor "economy brand" so they should be reasonably decent quality anyway.

Gooserider

 

[BJN644]

I think the oil issue is mainly for the oxygen side. As you probably know petroleum and a strong oxidizer, like pure oxygen, equals spontaneous combustion.

good reasoning though i cant see spontaneous combustion without a spark.

No spark required, it's called an exothermic reaction.

 

[rustynut]

preused,
think of a diesel motor
all pressure - no spark
that oxygen is high pressure entering into the regulator
add a petrolium product = nono
dissassembly and cleaning is ok though
just be sure not to use anything petrolium based
rn

 

[johnn]

Oxygen by nature, would be much richer than compressed air. Cant remember over the years how many times I`ve heard, "Never use oil with Oxygen"

Gooserider: I never heard such a noise at the regulator. They seem over the years to work or not, nothing in between except maybe the gauges needle. It was explained to me once , that the gauges function is to turn a liquid into a gas.
My only guess: Possibly a partial block in the hose causing a fluctuating of delivered pressure. (Diaphram tryng to regulate pressure) Seems you would notice that in the flame? With the cost of Acty.. I`ll some day switch to Map-Gas.

 

[Gooserider]

Oxygen by nature, would be much richer than compressed air. Cant remember over the years how many times I`ve heard, "Never use oil with Oxygen"

Gooserider: I never heard such a noise at the regulator. They seem over the years to work or not, nothing in between except maybe the gauges needle. It was explained to me once , that the gauges function is to turn a liquid into a gas.
My only guess: Possibly a partial block in the hose causing a fluctuating of delivered pressure. (Diaphram tryng to regulate pressure) Seems you would notice that in the flame? With the cost of Acty.. I`ll some day switch to Map-Gas.

As you said, Oxygen is the primary reactive ingredient in air. Normal air, compressed or not is about 21% Oxygen, the rest is Nitrogen and other assorted gasses that are relatively inert (N2 will go into chemical reactions, but it takes a lot to do so) Normal air compressor pressures, circa 100psi, are no problem with compressed air, but if you hit SCUBA tank levels (2-3,000 psi) the Oxy can ignite oils in the regulator / valve... (Breathing oil vapors can also make you sick / dead, but that's a seperate issue, suffice to say that SCUBA refill places are real big on air filtering...)

Oxygen is MUCH more violently reactive, and pure oxy has a much lower pressure where it will cause problems. I don't know what pressure it takes to spontaneously ignite oils, but I know that room pressure oxygen can and will cause glowing embers or a lit cigarette to instantly burst into flames.

As to your comment on the function of guages, no... ALL a guage does is register pressure. A REGULATOR may change a liquid to a gas, but it's not very common, normally a regulator will change the PRESSURE of a gas (or a liquid) from high to low...

Gooserider

 

[Gooserider]

Update - Took the regulators and so forth to the dealer on Saturday - wasn't able to help me any, as the guy said he wasn't qualified to work on the regulators. Only thing he was willing to do would be for me to leave them, and have them sent to their shop up in Maine for examination - which I wasn't willing to do given that the noise seems to be the only real problem with them. (it's a minor hassle for me to get up to the shop, since their weekend hours are only open 9-12 on Saturday...)

I put them back on the tanks today, and will keep on using them the way they are, at least until they show more signs of definite failure. (However I may unwind the hose more so that I'm further away when working...

Gooserider