Creosote Problem

[Pellet_Power]

Hi everyone. I have been having a problem with my pellet stove this year and that problem is creosote. I have a 6 year old Harman P61A that was professionally installed new. It is cleaned thoroughly at least 8-10 times during a burn season, and scraped as often as possible. I am using the same pellet fuel that I have always used (Eastern Embers) I live in Nova Scotia, but this year I am noticing creosote forming around the back of my burn pot as well as forming on the inside of my vent pipe. (see pics) I set my stove to room temp mode at around 72 Degrees and let it go on its own. The feed rate is still at factory setting (4) along with all other settings.

I guess I am just a little worried because I think of creosote and I think of chimney fires and such. We turn our stove on and let it run all day while we are at work, so now I can't stop thinking about this build up of creosote and wonder if something bad might happen.

Any input is surely appreciated!!

P.S. I just replaced the door gasket in the spring and that has helped keep the glass cleaner longer.

 

[rickwa]

check the flapper on the back side of the stove where the air is pulled in . it is on the left side if you are facing the stove it should swing freely. If that is ok buy a few bags of different pellets to rule out the fuel. Do you have a outside air kit installed?

 

[Pellet_Power]

Flapper?? Should I have to remove the back panels to see this? No I don't have an outside air kit. It seems really odd to me that after 6 years this started happening.

Thanks very much for the reply Rick

 

[cac4]

I think the different model harmans all have the same, or at least, very similar mechanism. On the combustion air intake pipe, where you'd hook up an outside air pipe if you had one, has a flapper inside that moderates the air intake. You should be able to stick your fingers in there and feel it to make sure it swings freely.

I had rusty-orange looking gunk like that building up in my stove recently, too, although it wasn't around the burn pot; it was in a few areas on the inner walls of the stove...the ash that normally builds up had an orange tinge to it. But much worse was the accumulation on the glass. I'm not sure that it is actually "creosote"...but whatever it was, it was hard as nails and was an absolute bee-otch to get off. Windex wouldn't touch it; Magic eraser made a dent, but still couldn't get it all off. The only thing that would was the wet paper towel dipped in ash...and scrub like hell. Or a razor blade. Then it would just return within hours.

I also noted that that flame wouldn't get very high. The stove heated fine, though. I figured that it just wasn't that cold out. I'd occasionally see puffs of smoke come out of the chimney, too. never saw that before.

I chalked it all up to "bad pellets"...but the problems remained after I used up my old supply and switched to everyone's favorite super-premium brand.

Stove tech at my local dealer said it was unlikely the door gasket; stove is too new. I started wondering if it could be sucking air from somewhere else, and then found that the cover on the slider mechanism was loose. I tightened it up, and the stove immediately started running like new. no more orange gunk. takes days for the glass to get hazy, in the old familiar pattern, which is easy to wipe off. Flame is high and yellow, instead of hazy and orange.

So I'm wondering...maybe a Harman tech can chime in, and point out any other possible places that could suck air. I've seen mention of a burn pot gasket...anything else that could loosen and allow too much air to sneak in?

I also noticed during all the above "fiddling" that the bolts that attach my auger motor can loosen over time. (I had to remove the motor to get access to the slider-box...after re-assembling, I notice that the feed is MUCH quieter than it was. nearly silent. An occasional snugging of those bolts will be on my maintenance checklist.) So I wonder if there might be anything else that could let air in if its loose.

 

[Pellet_Power]

Ok Checked the flap and that works fine but i went to pull out my ash pan I noticed a build up of more creosote around the exhaust fan. I'll include a pic... I just gave the stove a thorough cleaning 8 days ago and it sure as heck wasn't like this. Also just did a bolt check and the burn pot and vent tube are all tight...

 

[Bkins]

Seems to me that you might be dealing with a clogged, or partially clogged vent pipe system. Has it been totally cleaned also, or just the stove?

 

[krooser]

Here's a great video of how you should clean your Harman stove....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBUfkD-GiaE

And I agree that the vent system should also be cleaned after every ton of pellets...

Here's a good way of doing it AFTER you have cleaned your stove...

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/64138/

 

[Pellet_Power]

When I clean the stove a take a three inch brush and start at the outside vent pipe then remove the exhaust fan cover and use my brush to clean out the exhaust section of the stove back to the where the vent pipe joins (being very careful not to bang the ESP). I then vacuum out the ash/soot with my shop vac. Is there something else I should be doing?

PS. Guys I am really appreciating all the feedback

 

[Pellet_Power]

So I gave the stove a quick cleaning and put in a different brand of pellet. (Basically we have two here in Nova Scotia...Eastern Embers or Comfy Cozy both are supposedly a premium pellet with Eastern Embers being the better one but maybe not this batch). We'll see how it goes....

 

[Pellet_Power]

Burned a whole bag of another brand of pellet and still no improvement. Something worth noting is that my burn pot cover is warped. It has been since year 3 and each year it gets a little worse. I notice now that I can see smoke and even occasional flames coming from the back of my burn pot up past my cover. You can actually see in my first set of pics where there is some ash build up and black soot at the back of my cover. Could this be contributing to my creosote problems?

 

[rickwa]

Did you open the trap door under ther burn pot and clean it out? Also are the holes in the burn pot open? Look in the trap door under the burn pot and check for a blockage where the igniter wires go back into the back of the stove> When the stove is burning do you get a nice active flame or is it yellow and lazy? Stove seems to be starved for air??

 

[AndrewChurchill]

My PB105 is having the same problem with creosote that you are having. I was doing some reading in my manual and I suspect my seals need to be replaced. I'm going to talk to my dealer this week about it. Apparently if the seals are leaking a little bit it can reduce the draft enough where you don't get an efficient burn.

 

[Pellet_Power]

rickwa:
I make that a part of my regular routine. My p61a has to wing nuts holding on the cover that I remove and vacuum out every time I clean the stove. I also carefully take my finger and pull out any loose fines and vacuum them out. I also scrape the you know what out of the burn pot and make sure there aren't any blockages in my burn pot holes. The last question about the fire. It seems to burn fine. After I clean the stove and start a fire it shoots up nice and strong. Then (I have it turned to room temp) it settles down and a have a nice bed of hot 'coals'. I get lots of heat and I don't get any 'error' lights on my control panel. You would think that if it was having any kind of draft issue I should be getting an error code flashing at me.

Andrew:
I have thought about maybe a burn pot gasket but again if it was something like that wouldn't it throw off a sensor and give me a error code to check? I really want to avoid going back to the dealer if at all possible simply because mine went of business and to have another one come and even look at my stove it costs me $100 before they even do anything...if I was to go in and talk to one the first they would want to do is send someone out to look at it....

Keep the ideas/input coming guys I really appreciate it.

 

[AndrewChurchill]

I'm not talking about the burn pot gasket but the door gaskets. In my manual it says if you're seeing smoke coming from the exhaust pipe it's possible you have a leaky door gasket. It might not be leaking bad enough to hold enough of a vacuum for the sensor to trip, but just enough to give inefficient burning.

 

[Pellet_Power]

I just replaced my door gasket in the spring, but I didn't change the gasket around my door glass. Could that be causing this I wonder? I guess I could replace that one and see how it goes.

PS I am seeing smoke coming out of my vent pipe as well.

 

[cac4]

Its sounding more and more like the situation I just fixed. The stove was sucking air in from somewhere it shouldn't have been.

I, too, thought it was burning ok, because there were no errors, there was fire, and the room was steady at the temperature I had set. not much flame, but plenty o' heat.
In my testing, I switched over to stove temp, just to see what would happen. (plus, stove tech suggested I "crank it up hot" to burn off old crap out of the stove). So, I got huge heat...still not much flame.

Thats when I realized that this can't be right, and wound up finding that the slider plate cover was loose. There's gotta be a similar structure in your stove....even if its tight, there is a gasket there that might be worn.

something is leaking.

 

[Pellet_Power]

I agree chuck something is going on...you mention a slider plate, where exactly is this on your stove and what does it do. I will try to find something similar on mine.

 

[cac4]

Manuals are available on Harman's site, if you don't have one.

The slider plate is the gizmo at the bottom of the hopper...it slides back and forth to drop pellets down into the auger. If you look at the back of the stove, it would be just above the auger. On my stove, there is a cover plate that comes off, and its on the cleaning checklist in the manual to remove the plate and vacuum out the box to remove accumulated "fines". That cover plate has a foam gasket on it that makes it airtight...if its fastened properly.
the slider plate is actuated by cam-action on the auger shaft; when the auger rotates, this cam bumps a lever that moves the slider back and forth to drop a handful of pellets into the auger.

I suspect what was happening was that as the auger turned, at a certain point in its rotation, it allowed a little bit of extra air in there. (or maybe "out"; either way, the pressure changed just for a moment)...and there'd be a puff of smoke appear out of the chimney. The smoke wasn't constant. I noticed that it was related to the feeding of pellets. I'd hear the auger kick on, then a couple of seconds later, a poof of smoke. then the smoke stopped. Then the auger would kick in again, then another puff of smoke. It was kind of like watching someone breath outside in the cold air...only slower.

 

[mascoma]

I just replaced my door gasket in the spring, but I didn't change the gasket around my door glass. Could that be causing this I wonder? I guess I could replace that one and see how it goes.

PS I am seeing smoke coming out of my vent pipe as well.

Replaced door gasket in spring, haveing this issue for first time in fall? I would recheck the work on the door gasket, maybe reinstalled wrong.

 

[Pellet_Power]

cac4: I have a manual but to be honest I don't really find it that useful. It is ok for maintenance but for example when I wanted to know what size gasket I should be buying replace my door seal it doesn't tell you. I wanted to find a part number for my burn pot cover, the best I could find in the manual is a picture of one not relating to it at all but rather the burn pot itself.

Also my smoke is constant. It isn't heavy smoke just a light haze of it. Coincidentally I was looking at the slider plate (didn't know what it was called at the time) yesterday when I had the back off the stove. One of the other fellas posted some videos to watch and the guy in the video was showing a plate on the side of the auger that is held on with a wing nut. He said that sometimes ash/pellets build up in there and it should be checked and cleaned. I tried to do this but after I took the wing nut off the plate was stuck fast with a gasket. I didn't want to pry on it so I just left it.

Thanks for all the suggestions tho!

mascoma:

I am going to replace the door gasket and the gasket around my door glass. When I wrote earlier and said I replaced the gasket in the Spring I actually didn't do it a friend did it for me because he had some of the gasket left over and had done it before so I left the door at his place and he did it for me. After reading up on it it doesn't sound too hard to do so I will do it myself. I bought a 3/8" gasket kit for the door and 1/4" for the glass. Hopefully this makes a difference.

Thank you very much for the input!!

 

[cac4]

Also my smoke is constant. It isn't heavy smoke just a light haze of it. Coincidentally I was looking at the slider plate (didn't know what it was called at the time) yesterday when I had the back off the stove. One of the other fellas posted some videos to watch and the guy in the video was showing a plate on the side of the auger that is held on with a wing nut. He said that sometimes ash/pellets build up in there and it should be checked and cleaned. I tried to do this but after I took the wing nut off the plate was stuck fast with a gasket. I didn't want to pry on it so I just left it.

yep, thats the exact thing I'm talking about.

Its hard to see...but its held on the top by a tab that slips into a notch in the box. pull out from the bottom, and it will swing out as if its hinged on the top; then that tab will slip down and you'll be able to remove it. If you've never done it, you should, just so you can vacuum out any fines in there. The manual says to do that once a year.

If its that snug, this may not be the source of your burn problems. but just take note from my recent experience that this is a place from where the stove "could" suck air. Since the smoke you're seeing is constant, it might be sucking from somewhere else...but it still sounds to me like its sucking air from somewhere.

When I took that wingnut off of mine, I dropped it and it fell down beneath the stove...gone forever. (doh!). I didn't have another nut handy, and the cover seemed like it was snug enough without it, so I left it off. eventually, it loosened up, and caused my problems.

 

[Delta-T]

burnpot cover is called a "flame guide" they're like $15, I dont think its the real source of your problem, but it could factor in somehow. you could hold a lit cigarette or a stick of incense near the door when its running to see if it gets sucked in around the door or window, that would indicate a leak. check around the ash pan as well, for leaks that is.

 

[Delta-T]

this type of thing happens when you ru it with the hopper open as well, so make sure that sucker is closed and latched.

 

[Pellet_Power]

Thanks for that Delta-T. At least I know what I am asking for now if I need to get one. Good Point about the hopper too. I am replacing the gaskets right now. I never thought about the ash pan door...I will check that one too with the method you suggested.

 

[Pellet_Power]

The gasket is done. Door glass screws were too hard to come out so I will leave that for now and see if the new door gasket will do the trick. If not I will test like delta suggested. Have to wait 2 hours for cement to dry tho. I have included a pic of my flame guide (thanks for that delta-t). It is so badly warped now that the split goes almost down the entire center and in order for it to sit on the burn pot and go all the way to the back the front end sits way up in the air. If I place it in so the front end sits down then it doesn't slide all the way to the back giving me a flame from the back of the guide.