Designing the "System" for Heating with a new Fireplace

[climb.on]

I'm looking to start a discussion about some general concepts about the best way to get the heat distribution around the home. I will be installing a new Heat & Glow Northstar OR a Quadrafire 7100 in the next few weeks. We have an huge supply of oak firewood on our property and are getting a great deal on the fire place, so now is the time! The decision between the 2 fireplaces will largely be decided on which one my wife likes the look of best. The differences between the two are negligible otherwise.

Here are the details of our home and install plan:

-We are replacing a cheap inefficient wood burning unit.
-Our 4 bedroom, 2 bath, 2000 sq/ft, split-level home does NOT have an open floor plan unfortunately (8' ceilings throughout), so heat distribution is bigger challenge for me than in many newer homes.
-The fireplace is in the walkout basement living room (about 14'x25' with 8' ceilings) with one 30" doorway leading upstairs.
-The fireplace will be installed in a framed chimney chase.
-I will be utilizing at least 1 "heat zone kit" to blow hot air into the dining room directly above the fireplace.
-The closest cold air return is on the opposite side of the room at floor level.
-I may be able to install a cold air return easily at the ceiling level, anywhere along the long side of the room
-The fireplace will supplement heat from our furnace
-We run the furnace FAN continuously when heating or cooling to even out the temps in the house, which is moderately helpful, but I think it could be better with more well thought out cold air return placements.

I am concerned that I will "cook" right out of the basement living room unless I really am able to effectively move the heat to the rest of the house. Heck it gets pretty darn warm down there with the current fireplace. I plan to distribute the heat some or all of the following 4 ways: 1. the blower fan on the fireplace 2. the heat zone kit blowing warm air to the room upstairs, 3. a ceiling fan in the entryway of the house to pull/push air up/downstairs, 4. with strategically placed cold air returns.

My biggest question is regarding the returns the cold air return vents. Should I be thinking about the air circulation in the home in terms of PULLING WARM air from the BASEMENT through the returns (by opening more returns downstairs than upstairs) and PUSHING WARMER air out the heat vents UPSTAIRS? OR the opposite by PULLING COOL air from the UPSTAIRS through the returns (by opening more returns upstairs than downstairs) and PUSHING COOLER air out the heat vents DOWNSTAIRS? The later would theoretically create a positive pressure in the basement and help the natural movement of warm air rising up the stairway.

If you have made it reading this far...THANK YOU! Any suggestions or input you have is greatly appreciated!

 

[lukem]

Replying mostly to subscribe to thread. I have the same setup/dilemma. Stove in basement trying to (more) evenly heat whole house. Last year it did a decent job, but I'd like to even out the temp a little.

So far the only thought I've given to it is that I need to put in some returns to the basement. My stairwell is 5' wide, but in the wrong spot in the house. It can serve dual duty (feed and return) but needs some help. I'm hoping the natural convection will take care of a lot of it and fan use will be minimal. Last year I blew cold air down the basement steps with box fan.

Whatever you do, always move the cold air....and use the cold air to move the warm air. Example: If you want to get warm air out of a room, blow cold air into it.

 

[RSNovi]

I am having a stove installed this week. Speaking with the HVAC guy, he mentioned adding a return duct near the stove and then adding three feeds to help circulate the air in the basement where the stove will be located. He mentioned over a period of a few hours that a decent amount of heat should start circulating through the house.

 

[climb.on]

Whatever you do, always move the cold air....and use the cold air to move the warm air. Example: If you want to get warm air out of a room, blow cold air into it.

Thanks lukem. So I understand you correctly...is the following scenario and example of your suggestion? Add/open more returns upstairs and blow the cooler air into the basement through the heat vents and let convection push the warm air up the stairway?

 

[climb.on]

I am having a stove installed this week. Speaking with the HVAC guy, he mentioned adding a return duct near the stove and then adding three feeds to help circulate the air in the basement where the stove will be located. He mentioned over a period of a few hours that a decent amount of heat should start circulating through the house.

What do you mean by "feeds"? Heat vents that blow the air (opposite of the returns). Sorry I'm not up on all the correct terminology. Thanks.

 

[RSNovi]

Yes, the heat vents that blow the air. I wasn't sure what to call them either.

Chris

 

[firefighterjake]

Random thoughts . . .

When you say you have a huge supply of oak firewood on your property do you really mean you have oak firewood cut, split and stacked . . . or do you really mean to say you have lots of oak trees . . . there is a difference as a) it takes a while to take an oak tree (or any other tree) and process it into firewood by cutting it down, bucking it up, splitting it and stacking it and b) most folks suggest that it takes 2 or more years before most oak is truly seasoned enough to burn well . . . the flip side being that once seasoned it is primo wood.

I will readily admit I am not up to date on fireplaces . . . but are these fireplaces as efficient as a wood burning insert or free standing woodstove? Again, I am a bit ignorant on this part.

While individual circumstances will vary I would guess that a well placed and appropriate sized wood-burning appliance could heat your entire home . . . I know the Oslo is heating my home which is a 2-story, 1,800 square foot Cape in Maine.

Moving the heat . . . as mentioned . . . positioning a fan from an adjoining room and pointing it so that it is blowing towards the heating appliance is cheap and quite effective . . . what this does is work with the natural order of things by setting up a natural air flow . . . hot air rises near the woodstove . . . it slowly flows outward near the ceiling . . . the fan on the floor pushes cooler air towards the stove . . . as the cooler air is pushed to the stove the hot air is forced down into the vacated area . . . and an artificial wind "current" is set up.

Some folks have had some success in using their furnace to circulate the heated air . . . others have not had much luck in moving the heat. I do not have any personal experience with this myself though so I cannot comment on how well this may or may not work.

Any pictures or drawings . . . we're very visual here . . . seeing a layout of your house, where the heating appliance will be located, etc. may help stimulate some members to respond.

 

[climb.on]

Random thoughts . . .

When you say you have a huge supply of oak firewood on your property do you really mean you have oak firewood cut, split and stacked . . . or do you really mean to say you have lots of oak trees . . . there is a difference as a) it takes a while to take an oak tree (or any other tree) and process it into firewood by cutting it down, bucking it up, splitting it and stacking it and b) most folks suggest that it takes 2 or more years before most oak is truly seasoned enough to burn well . . . the flip side being that once seasoned it is primo wood.

I have about 3 full cords cut, split, stacked, covered and dried 2 years. I was going to sell most of it this year, since with our current inefficient fireplace, we only burn about 1 face cord per season. Now with the new fireplace, we'll be burning it. We have several large trees (some standing dead for a year or so) needing to be taken down this fall to be put in the que for next season and beyond. We have just over 6 heavily wooded acres with mostly oaks and some maple. I'm not sure how much I would go through in one season, but I would think 3 full cords is probably adequate.

I will readily admit I am not up to date on fireplaces . . . but are these fireplaces as efficient as a wood burning insert or free standing woodstove? Again, I am a bit ignorant on this part.

They are at least 75% efficient and qualify for the Home Energy Tax Credit. There are only a couple insert out there that qualify because of the high efficiency requirments. http://fireside.com/consumer/products/fireplaces/woodFireplaceDetail.asp?f=7100FP&b=QDF

While individual circumstances will vary I would guess that a well placed and appropriate sized wood-burning appliance could heat your entire home . . . I know the Oslo is heating my home which is a 2-story, 1,800 square foot Cape in Maine.

Moving the heat . . . as mentioned . . . positioning a fan from an adjoining room and pointing it so that it is blowing towards the heating appliance is cheap and quite effective . . . what this does is work with the natural order of things by setting up a natural air flow . . . hot air rises near the woodstove . . . it slowly flows outward near the ceiling . . . the fan on the floor pushes cooler air towards the stove . . . as the cooler air is pushed to the stove the hot air is forced down into the vacated area . . . and an artificial wind "current" is set up.

Some folks have had some success in using their furnace to circulate the heated air . . . others have not had much luck in moving the heat. I do not have any personal experience with this myself though so I cannot comment on how well this may or may not work.

I'm sure there is no magic bullet on getting the heat distributed well....perhaps more art than science. But understanding the general concepts will help me create a system that works well. You are the second person who has suggested that moving cold air to the warm air is the way to go, so that is very helpful in thinking about designing this system!

Any pictures or drawings . . . we're very visual here . . . seeing a layout of your house, where the heating appliance will be located, etc. may help stimulate some members to respond.

Thanks for the suggestion. I'll take some pictures soon and make some annotations on them so they make more sense.

 

[climb.on]

Here are a few pictures that show a few areas that will be addressed to help distribute the heat. I would also add another heat vent in this room to help blow cool air with the furnace fan. There are currently 2 heat vents in the ceiling and one large cold air return near the floor. What do you think? Suggestions?

 

[firefighterjake]

Random thoughts . . .

When you say you have a huge supply of oak firewood on your property do you really mean you have oak firewood cut, split and stacked . . . or do you really mean to say you have lots of oak trees . . . there is a difference as a) it takes a while to take an oak tree (or any other tree) and process it into firewood by cutting it down, bucking it up, splitting it and stacking it and b) most folks suggest that it takes 2 or more years before most oak is truly seasoned enough to burn well . . . the flip side being that once seasoned it is primo wood.

I have about 3 full cords cut, split, stacked, covered and dried 2 years. I was going to sell most of it this year, since with our current inefficient fireplace, we only burn about 1 face cord per season. Now with the new fireplace, we'll be burning it. We have several large trees (some standing dead for a year or so) needing to be taken down this fall to be put in the que for next season and beyond. We have just over 6 heavily wooded acres with mostly oaks and some maple. I'm not sure how much I would go through in one season, but I would think 3 full cords is probably adequate.

I will readily admit I am not up to date on fireplaces . . . but are these fireplaces as efficient as a wood burning insert or free standing woodstove? Again, I am a bit ignorant on this part.

They are at least 75% efficient and qualify for the Home Energy Tax Credit. There are only a couple insert out there that qualify because of the high efficiency requirments. http://fireside.com/consumer/products/fireplaces/woodFireplaceDetail.asp?f=7100FP&b=QDF

While individual circumstances will vary I would guess that a well placed and appropriate sized wood-burning appliance could heat your entire home . . . I know the Oslo is heating my home which is a 2-story, 1,800 square foot Cape in Maine.

Moving the heat . . . as mentioned . . . positioning a fan from an adjoining room and pointing it so that it is blowing towards the heating appliance is cheap and quite effective . . . what this does is work with the natural order of things by setting up a natural air flow . . . hot air rises near the woodstove . . . it slowly flows outward near the ceiling . . . the fan on the floor pushes cooler air towards the stove . . . as the cooler air is pushed to the stove the hot air is forced down into the vacated area . . . and an artificial wind "current" is set up.

Some folks have had some success in using their furnace to circulate the heated air . . . others have not had much luck in moving the heat. I do not have any personal experience with this myself though so I cannot comment on how well this may or may not work.

I'm sure there is no magic bullet on getting the heat distributed well....perhaps more art than science. But understanding the general concepts will help me create a system that works well. You are the second person who has suggested that moving cold air to the warm air is the way to go, so that is very helpful in thinking about designing this system!

Any pictures or drawings . . . we're very visual here . . . seeing a layout of your house, where the heating appliance will be located, etc. may help stimulate some members to respond.

Thanks for the suggestion. I'll take some pictures soon and make some annotations on them so they make more sense.

Excellent news on the firewood . . . and the efficient fireplace!

 

[jtp10181]

I was summoned to comment on this thread.

All the ideas sound good.

If you get the 7100 definatly run the AUX air to a location upstrairs, it will help get more air moving that way when you pull air from there into the fan system. The goal would be to pull cool air from someplace else to the fireplace with the AUX air, then it blows out into the room with the fireplace in it.

The more you can get the air moving around in the entire house the better it will heat.

Plan on the basement being a shorts and t-shirt only zone! It will definatly feel nice to go down there after being out in the cold.

 

[mmopt]

I have a similar situation where I'm trying to move heat from one side of the house to another. Last year we used one stove, the Buck, to heat the whole first floor (1600sq ft) and it did a great job but it's a ranch and was located on the end of 60 feet of house. This made the other side a bit colder, you'd have 75 on one side and 70 on the other. This year we added another stove for added heat in the basement, Jotul #8 off craigslist for $200 with enamel!, it's also on the one side of the house sharing the same chimney stack (separate flu)

I'm thinking of calling a HVAC guy to vent the one side back to both the stove rooms but also thought of doing it myself and adding a high flow in line fan. Has anyone used something like this one: Broan HLB11 In Line Exhaust Fan

Each room with stove is 25x15.

Any suggestions?

 

[climb.on]

That blower sure would move some air! 110cfm - 10" pipe. I kind of like the idea...it's independent of the furnace blower and it will move a lot of air exactly where you need it. I just wonder with it being a 5 amp blower, how much energy that thing take vs. the benefit you would gain? If you have an easy installation, that would be a big factor. Also, it's not cheap $550+.

If you have an HVAC guy come out, post any good advice you get!

 

[mmopt]

That blower sure would move some air! 110cfm - 10" pipe. I kind of like the idea...it's independent of the furnace blower and it will move a lot of air exactly where you need it. I just wonder with it being a 5 amp blower, how much energy that thing take vs. the benefit you would gain? If you have an easy installation, that would be a big factor. Also, it's not cheap $550+.

If you have an HVAC guy come out, post any good advice you get!

Yep, not sure if I need all that power but I'm not sure how you'd figure what CFM is needed? My install would be very easy. There is part of the basement that is unfinished that runs the span of the house, it's a utility room about 60x10, I could mount a duct in there with some of the other ducting near it.

 

[dskup]

I have a similar situation, and the same 7100FP installed. I've experimented with using the furnace fan to move warmed air, and I've also installed several duct fans to move air through insulated crawl spaces. This fireplace is a beast, and it's tough to move enough air volume to compensate for the high heat output. I found that the best approach was to use the stair wells and open doorways as the primary path. Running the aux input to the upper floor will definitely help, as the blower in this fire place does draw a lot of air. But I would also buy a large powerful ceiling fan for that stair well. I'm sure putting some returns in the room will help, but I doubt it will have a huge affect. I guarantee you WILL be opening windows at times.

That's my two cents. The Quad is a great unit, no complaints. I think you'll like it. By the way, you can always make smaller fires!

 

[climb.on]

Thanks for the reply dskup! Great to hear from someone with experience using this unit for a while. You've confirmed what I sort of suspect will be the case. But like you say...I don't have to burn full loads constantly. I'm still working on the installation and hope to have it heating the house very soon.