Do any of the manufacturers have this design? Sort of a stand up Garn?

[Gasifier]

I looked at a lot of boilers when I was getting ready to purchase. The Garn was a consideration. I like the idea of a wood burner and storage all in one unit. But they were to big to get into my basement without major, major renovation or putting it in a detached building and then trenching and installing underground lines. Something I did not want. I did not want my boiler in an out building. And I did not want to be digging through the ground and have all that to deal with.

Anyway, it seams with all the technology and possibilites out there, that Garn or someone else would take the same concept and design a stand up model. Most average homes are not that big and insulation technique seems to be getting better. It would seem like for ease of getting into the house through a 36" door or basement bilco door, etc. a stand up gassification unit with storage built in like a Garn would be appealing to many. I know it would have with me. If you could have, let's say 300 gallons of water stored in the system you could provide enough BTUs for the average size, well insulated home. And, if that was not big enough, have an extra storage tank(s) you could add on to meet whatever need you had. All of the tanks of course would fit through the same size door or openeing and be stand up. Saving on floor space like the burner would.

Does someone already do this? I know I have seen the boilers that fit through a standard door. But not one that has storage combined with the burner. Let's see, your max size would be 33" X 78" to leave a little room to get through a 36" exterior door. Just seems like the Garn burner and storage could be done in a gassification design that was upright.

Obviously I am no engineer, hydronic system designer, fabricator, etc., etc. That is for sure. ;-) But there has to be a way it could be done and work well. An induction fan, tubes, etc. could be done in almost any fashion. What do you guys think. There must be a reason why they haven't done it yet. Or have they? And I have missed it. Seems like there are many designs out there that fit through an average exterior door, but none that have the storage built in.

 

[goosegunner]

I think the reason Garns are big is for the rapid burn/btu transfer and storage of btu's. What is the average heat loss for modern houses?

My 14 year old home has a 48K heat loss at -15, if I put the average at 25K in winter 300 gallons would last me 4 hours. Maybe if it had a small btu output so you could extend burn time to charge storage. That would extend the 4 hours storage time.

I have followed some of your posts on your woodgun system, how much are you heating What is your heat loss?

gg

 

[tom in maine]

We are testing this unit for another winter.
It can handle a stick that is just under 48" (2-22" sticks).
We might make it slightly taller.

Separate storage, though. We like unpressurized tanks!!

The unit itself weighs about 300". It uses an ID fan.

 

[jebatty]

Stand-up "garn" with storage? Goes right through a door? Fits a normal height ceiling? Yes, these exist, and are called gasification boilers. Lots of mfrs. Humor, of course.

As stated by Goosegunner, 300 gallons or so of storage would function mostly as a buffer, which is good, but in most northern US applications would not provide heat over very long in most homes during cold weather. Might be OK in a super-insulated home, or during moderate temperatures. Last winter my shop, even at -35F, was averaging just 17000 btuh, so 300 gallons of 190F to 100F water for the radiant floor would provide overnight heat. I have 1000 gallons and burned only once every other day; sweet.

A vertical boiler like Tom in Maine describes is interesting. Looks a little scary to open a top with hot flame straight below, but I assume a sufficient downdraft and no possibility of scorching the ceiling.

 

[tom in maine]

There is a cover, it is just not in the photos.

It occurred to me a while ago that this looks a lot like Dick Hill's original work.

It is different, although much of the concept is similar, with some tweaks and newer materials.

It seems to put out a steady 100k/hr at moderate firing.

Since I only have a 350g tank, it does not take long to process heat for a day or two.

The big dilemma is that this is made to interface with our tanks and to actually sell them, we only need
to invest about $50k to test them for EPA and safety.

It takes a while to amortize that kind of investment.

Once that is done you can sell it, but if you tweak it (as we all do!!) as a manufacturer, you need to re-test.

The good news is that it is getting cool enough to fire it every couple days.

I have thought of offering it as a kit, but my lawyer gets really pale when I talk about that...

 

[ewdudley]

We are testing this unit for another winter.
It can handle a stick that is just under 48" (2-22" sticks).
We might make it slightly taller.

Separate storage, though. We like unpressurized tanks!!

The unit itself weighs about 300". It uses an ID fan.

It looks like it could burn higher than optimal MC fuel efficiently, that is to say with complete combustion while still sacrificing the latent heat of the excess moisture.

Have you tried burning 30 or 40 percent MC dry basis fuel, or would you be interested in giving it a try? You'd probably need a good charcoal layer and some additional primary air.

--ewd

 

[tom in maine]

The wood I burn is from July of this year. The MC is about 28-30%.
It starts up well and I suspect that 40% is do-able once it is up to temp.

Would prefer to keep it with 30% or less, though.

The 02 sensor in my Fyrite went out, so I am going to pickup one that uses no O2 sensor and has a wood setting
soon.
Will post the numbers when I get it.

We are running delta T and have a flowmeter in place so I can get accurate output numbers.

 

[ewdudley]

The wood I burn is from July of this year. The MC is about 28-30%.
It starts up well and I suspect that 40% is do-able once it is up to temp.

Would prefer to keep it with 30% or less, though.

You're right, getting some of the current calendar year's crop down to 30% DB shouldn't be too hard. If you can burn it correctly at that MC then it would sure help keeping the operator out of a bind if he's running short on the good stuff.

 

[Duetech]

Even 300 gal would present a logistical problem going through a bilco door with the angle of the staris involved (many people have troubles getting their old fuel oil drums out of their basement because of the bulk and they only hold around 275 gal). Adding the cubic measurement to the firebox of a boiler with sufficient insulation to allow gasification and a heat exchanger starts to get dimmensional. I wonder by the time you get such a boiler built if most modern stairs will take the load while trying to transition from one level of the house to the basement. Because of the need to clean the heat exchanger the exhaust design/placement would be critical. I like the design of Tom in Maines little boiler and would really like to get a "kit"..... such is life.

 

[Gasifier]

What is the average heat loss for modern houses?
Can't know. I know, to many variables. But the newer homes are getting better insulation, and if you combine that with in-floor radiant or those radiant panels, your getting smaller BTU needs. A good thing. Passive houses are very interesting as well. Expensive.
I have followed some of your posts on your woodgun system, how much are you heating What is your heat loss?
House 3000 sq. ft.
Basement 900 sq. ft. -900 sq. ft. Wood Gun radiates and keeps this plenty warm enough.
Garage 900 sq. ft. kept at 45 °F so does not require to much for in floor radiant concrete.
Total 3900 sq. ft.

I do not know what my exact heat loss is. It has been to long since I did it and did not right it down. Garage insulation is excellent. House I would say is decent or medium. But, I did figure I undersized the boiler so that it would run wide open most of the time. I was undecided between the 100,000BTU unit and the 140,000BTU unit. But the salesman told me that AHS has decided to stop selling the 140,000BTU(I don't know when.) unit because the 100,000BTU rated unit is actually putting out quite a bit more than that. Probably closer to 120-130. So I took the chance and went with the E100. I also have the intention of improving my insulation over the next five years a little bit at a time.

 

[Gasifier]

We are testing this unit for another winter.
It can handle a stick that is just under 48†(2-22†sticks).
We might make it slightly taller.
Separate storage, though. We like unpressurized tanks!!
The unit itself weighs about 300â€. It uses an ID fan.
Tom, very interesting unit. Looks easy to move, doesn't take up much space. Cool. Keep us posted on your progress. And thanks.



Stand-up “garn†with storage? Goes right through a door? Fits a normal height ceiling? Yes, these exist, and are called gasification boilers. Lots of mfrs. Humor, of course.
As stated by Goosegunner, 300 gallons or so of storage would function mostly as a buffer, which is good, but in most northern US applications would not provide heat over very long in most homes during cold weather. Might be OK in a super-insulated home, or during moderate temperatures.

Jim, My Wood Gun is close to what I am talking, but not built in storage. Had the most capacity that I could get into my house without to much trouble though. I did like that it held 60 gallons of water compared with most around 30 gallons. What would be wrong with the 300 gallon unit and if more was needed have a similar size storage option to go right beside it? Say another 300 gallons.

What about this? The unit comes in two pieces. The bottom or top is the burner, (whatever is best, probably the top), and the other is the storage. (Would 250 gallons be best? easier/lighter) They are designed properly to support and fit on top of one another and be bolted together. Then the plumbing fittings are plumbed up once that is done. Short distance, valves in plumbing in betweeen. Then small tanks, say at 250 gallons each, same shape, can be ordered and stacked two high on top of each other(if needed) and then bolt and plumbed together on site. If the main burning unit with 250(?) gallons is enough for your small, well insulated home you are good to go. If you need more storage, you add one or two more of the tanks. The 250 gallons would be enough for small percentage of people, 500 would be enough for quite a few, and the 750 gallons would be enough for most people. Maybe the units could have four places in each corner about a third of the way up for simple pipe handles with threads on the end could thread in. Four guys could pick them up, move into place, and then take the moving handles out. Just an idea.

Tom, I here you on the cost of doing business and bringing it to market. I do not know how some companies even make it today. I remember reading a while back that of all companies started, more than half fail in the first 5 years. Low overhead is a serious benefit. But sometimes you have to go for it in order to get bigger and make the bigger money.

Even 300 gal would present a logistical problem going through a bilco door with the angle of the staris involved (many people have troubles getting their old fuel oil drums out of their basement because of the bulk and they only hold around 275 gal). Adding the cubic measurement to the firebox of a boiler with sufficient insulation to allow gasification and a heat exchanger starts to get dimmensional. I wonder by the time you get such a boiler built if most modern stairs will take the load while trying to transition from one level of the house to the basement. Because of the need to clean the heat exchanger the exhaust design/placement would be critical. I like the design of Tom in Maines little boiler and would really like to get a “kitâ€..... such is life.

Good points 2K. What do you think of the stacking with 250 gallons. Lighter now, easier to handle. Now the 275 fuel tanks are an odd shape. Imagine square or rectangular, whatever would be best.

Why not have some fun here? Let's design one. We will call it the Hearth.com multi purpose gassification boiler! :coolgrin:

 

[tom in maine]

I am not sure if I have hijacked this thread or not? If I have, sorry.
The unit we have been working on is, however, a stand up boiler and there are some parallels with a Garn.

This unit is specific to our tank. In other words,
it is an unpressurized boiler that circumvents some issues.
It can (Might) also eliminate a heat exchanger.

As mentioned earlier, an integral tank and boiler, was a thought, but logistics is always a concern.
A separate tank makes big sense.

No component weighs more than 100#.
It always amazes me when big boilers and propane tanks are installed into a basement.

Hopefully lightweight can still be durable. The boiler is 304 stainless.
Stainless is a bit more expensive, but no water treatment is necessary.
It goes together in pieces and installed in about an hour.

Present controls are a solar differential controller between the boiler and the tank.

Whenever the tank is colder than the boiler, the pump operates. The blower is also on this control.

We will be filing for a patent. There are some things that make it different.

A negative is the firebox is smaller than some units. It is 12" in diameter and about 44" tall.
Maybe suited better for smaller heat loads. I am not sure, since the firing rate is pretty decent given the size.

Maybe it just was a nice diversion that has taken several years to get to here. We'll see.

 

[Gasifier]

I am not sure if I have hijacked this thread or not? If I have, sorry.
The unit we have been working on is, however, a stand up boiler and there are some parallels with a Garn.
This unit is specific to our tank. In other words,
it is an unpressurized boiler that circumvents some issues.
It can (Might) also eliminate a heat exchanger.
As mentioned earlier, an integral tank and boiler, was a thought, but logistics is always a concern.
A separate tank makes big sense.
No component weighs more than 100#.
It always amazes me when big boilers and propane tanks are installed into a basement.
Hopefully lightweight can still be durable. The boiler is 304 stainless.
Stainless is a bit more expensive, but no water treatment is necessary.
It goes together in pieces and installed in about an hour.
Present controls are a solar differential controller between the boiler and the tank.
Whenever the tank is colder than the boiler, the pump operates. The blower is also on this control.
We will be filing for a patent. There are some things that make it different.
A negative is the firebox is smaller than some units. It is 12†in diameter and about 44†tall.
Maybe suited better for smaller heat loads. I am not sure, since the firing rate is pretty decent given the size.
Maybe it just was a nice diversion that has taken several years to get to here. We’ll see.


Interesting design Tom. I like the idea of a pressurized system though . No heat exchangers. Just a few small circulation pumps and aquastats.
The biggest pain in the butt with any of the boilers out there is there size. Why haven't they taken into consideration a person may be trying to move these things? The 250 gallons that I mentioned are probably still to heavy. How about a 125 gallon tank on the bottom. The burner in the middle and another 125 gallon tank on top. Then the same 125 gallon tanks as options stackable next to the main unit. You could then go from 250 gallons with the main unit all the way up to whatever you needed. The burner unit in the middle could even be several sizes to meet the individuals needs. One at say 80,000 BTU, then 120,000, then 160,000.
My Wood Gun is 304 Stainless as well. I hope it holds up well. Good luck on your design/build and then everything that comes after! I wish you all the greatest success.

 

[tom in maine]

We have done both pressurized and unpressurized.
Dick Hill and I always went unpressurized to keep costs down and have a system that was inherently safe.
We still would include pressure relief valves and the normal safety devices.

The lesson here is from the outdoor wood boiler people. Unpressurized eliminates that code issue and ASME certification.

We can operate this unit pressurized, but given the design and simplicity unpressurized seems to be the way to go for me.

Granted, I manufacture unpressurized tanks for a living.

I think there is merit doing an unpressurized system on the output side as well.
I un-did my pressure system and removed a steel radiant panel and replaced it with a copper panel I made up. There are no ferrous
materials in the system.

My 2 cents worth is that things are simpler, more serviceable and a fair bit less expensive.
Not everyone will do it the way I am trying right now, and I am open to criticism and guidance.

BTW, my wood boiler and Mechanical Engineering Godfather, Dick Hill, will be 93 next week!
He still is on the radio with me every Saturday for an hour over the phone.