Does anyone have a minimal smoke startup method for a Seton/Greenwood?

[SteveJ]

Okay - nofossil has a four minute startup for his EKO https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/27273/

Does anyone have a forty minute or less minimal smoke startup method for a Seton/Greenwood boiler?

From a cold start, I seem to have as much smoke as a neighbor's outside wood boiler for about 20-30 minutes with stack temperatures constant at 1100F (small pine).

After 30 minutes or the first couple of cycles, the Seton goes pretty much smoke free with stack temperatures around 700F.

So, yes - I am going to cut up the side panel and clean the HX tubes and do an "Anthony special" modification to reduce stack temperatures.

But - the main question - how to minimize smoke from the Seton/Greenwood configuration???

Larger heat load seems good but the main issue seems to be getting the refractory up to temperature.

Are all/any Seton/Greenwood owners using return temperature protection (e.g. a Termovar)?

Thanks,
Steve

 

[2.beans]

lowering my draft seemed to help mine. i use a barametric dampner to keep the draft at .05. what color is the smoke?

 

[SteveJ]

2.beans,

Thanks for the reply...

I thought that barometric dampers were a no-no because of potential chimney fires with no way to stop the air supply.

Which boiler are you running?

The smoke at a cold start-up is usually black...

I have a manometer and a iron plate damper in the stove pipe - most of the time the chimney runs at 0.05-0.08" wc - except when windy then will run between 0.03 and 0.11.

Anybody using a Vacu-stack?

http://www.woodlanddirect.com/Chimney/Wind-Resistant-Chimney-Caps/Vacu-Stack-Wind-Resistant-Chimney-Cap

 

[2.beans]

im running a w200 (130) and yes you can have a chimney fire, but you can also have one with real high stack temps. mine will smoke white on new wood seems like its getting out the last of the moister. i cut mine and my father inlaws boilers open and cleaned the vessel. that made a huge difference on my father inlaws. i removed 10 gallons of creasote from his.

 

[SteveJ]

Thanks for the info...

Where did you cut - side or back? How often do you clean now?

Did you consider a draft inducer?

Do you have pictures of your clean out?

Do you have pictures of your barometric damper?

Thanks,
Steve

 

[antknee2]

Hi Steve
I start my boiler at night but when I demo the boiler of friends I use five sheets of crumbled up news paper in a back corner , about 10 small very dry pieces of kindling almost vertical against back wall , then about five very dry splits of what is accessible from the wood shed stacked right on the kindling / leaning against . So when I start a fire the wood is all up against the back refractory wall . The Seton will go clear heat waves only in 5-10 minutes . About a hour into the burn I load it with some larger dia rounds . The seton has no return water protection , it heats so fast , the Econoburn is protected and will not pump into the system until it is up to 150 f .

 

[SteveJ]

Hi Anthony,

How are the installs going? Pictures?

So you can get a clean burn going in about 5-10 minutes? With or without the "Anthony" damper closed?
What stack temperatures do you get? What about with the "Anthony" damper?

You should really write a book - I would definately buy it!

When is the "Anthony D" boiler going into production? Will it have a Solar component?

Steve

 

[henfruit]

i havnt fired mine greenwood 100 up yet.waiting for the plumber to to do the hook up. this will be year two, but ihave moved it outside to combo wood shed 12 x30 90 feet from the house. i cleaned the firebox part of the tubes and the back by taking off the back. i saw that greenwood has a notice of how to take off the side and clean the back section of the pipes. they also sell a kit to do it with. i have set it up with 6 inch double wall icc pipe through the roof for a total 18 ft. of pipe with a cap. i may want to remove the cap but wont know till i get it going. i also have a draft inducer installed on the pipe. i noticed the air tubes do not fit tight into the firebox at the back of the stove . iwonder if this would cause a draft problem when the unit is in the idle mode? two beans i may have asked you but what part of nh are you in? i am in effingham. if we are not to far apart maby icould see your set up some time?

 

[antknee2]

Hi Anthony,

How are the installs going? Pictures?

So you can get a clean burn going in about 5-10 minutes? With or without the "Anthony" damper closed?
What stack temperatures do you get? What about with the "Anthony" damper?

You should really write a book - I would definately buy it!

When is the "Anthony D" boiler going into production? Will it have a Solar component?

Steve

The Seton will clean up faster without the smoke path diverter . With the diverter installed the Seton is super critical on having a full heat load an a system that can absorb all the energy in a hurry , other wise it shuts down on high limit way to often for me to feel safe . The fast clean up times I mentioned above are with a stock boiler and very warm and dry primary air supply. Clean tubes are the key and the new Setons have a built in draft damper in the flue outlet , would love to incorporate new set up on my boiler . Anthony

 

[SteveJ]

Anthony,

I have one of the butterfly stove dampers in my stove pipe about 6 inches from the Seton exhaust. The handle can be seen in the first picture below.

Seems like the diverter is the best idea and would be perfect if you could use as the stove damper with a handle on the outside of the panel - got any for sale

In the new Seton's http://www.rohor.com/page7.html, what controls the damper opening?

Fred told me to take off the back panel for cleaning - have you ever had yours off?

If I run the butterfly damper full open, then the draft is around 0.06 inches wc and the exhaust temperature is as shown below (1200F) - a little too hot for my tastes.

If I run the damper closed about halfway, then the draft is 0.03 inches wc and the exhaust runs at about 800F.

I am burning dry pine - small 1-3 inch rounds for the shoulder season.

Guess I will be taking the Seton apart soon for cleaning...

Steve

 

[2.beans]

i had installed a flap on my flue outlet that would open with the draft door .i had also told fred this and he seemed to like it. i used linkage so when the dratf door would open it opens the flue flap. worked good until you got a day with real heavy fog then the boiler would smoke out every seem and the door filling my boiler room with smoke. so i took it out and installed the barametric, maybe ill try it again when i seal up the panels and door. as for cutting the boiler open i cut the side 10" in on the side panel. dont measure from the angle iron but from the galvy side itself. then i welded a piece of angle inside to screw the panel back on with. put on new insulation and tucked it all back together. ill try to get some pics on tonite. i also dont use any return temp saftey, just whatever water is in the bottom of my tanks. mine runs 350 to 450 with .05 of draft using dry pine or hardwood.

 

[antknee2]

Wow Steve that's some high stack temperature !! The new Setons have a linkage between the stack damper and the primary air damper , they work together . I think they work like 2.beas system . With relatively clean hx tubes , very heavy load , return water at 160f , smoke path diverter installed , super dry oak and a professional quality stack temperature gauge in the same location on your boiler , the max temperature was 600f and average is 400f with full load of wood . PS I also have a barometric damper installed , set at .05 wc .

 

[SteveJ]

Anthony,

Thanks for the info...

Fred told me that a barometric damper will chill the stack and not to use...

But you and 2.beans seem to be using with positive results...

May have to try.

Which barometric damper are you using?
Are you using a double Tee setup where the barametric damper is as close to the floor as possible?

A quick picture maybe - please

Thanks,
Steve

 

[2.beans]

i use a run of the mill barometric that you can pick up at a hardware store. my chimney comes straight out the back single tee thru the wall then up. so the barometric is right at the floor. when i told fred about my flue flap setup he had said that in the first seton models he used to put a barometric right in the back of the boiler then stopped because most people werent smart enough to run them. without a gauge i could see where it would be. he then told me i should try using a barometric after i explained that id get smoke out the door. with the barometric i have had chimney fires though, not bad but still not good. my boiler is in my shop 240' from my house and i use a metal chimney that i know keep a closer eye on build up, although a chimney fire cleans it out real good. probably not the best was to clean it. i got out of work late last night so i didnt get to get to post pictures like i wanted to. ive been installing my buddies home built seton , 500 gallon tank storage tank, plumbing and controls after work so ive been really busy. hope to get a bunch of pictures up soon.

 

[trailhound68]

Steve-O, 1100 degrees? And then a constant 700? I'm not burning pine, but I thought when I saw 625 that was high.

 

[SteveJ]

2.beans - please post the install pictures when you get a chance...

trailhound68 - yes - hot temps - I was afraid the 24 ft DuraTech chimney would not take it much more.

So, I took off the right side panel (and tore the insulation in the process :down: ).

After chipping off the build up on the HX tubes for 2 hours and filling half a 30 gallon trash can, I put the Seton back together and burned the same small rounds shown below and got stack temperatures around 450F.

Before cleaning, the only exhaust path was between the refractory and the front of the HX tubes.

After cleaning, the exhaust went through the tubes and behind the tubes.

Moral of the story - watch the stack temp and the draft on the Setons.

 

[antknee2]

Hi Steve
Great job , the first time is the worst , next time you know what to expect . My Seton had a 4''-5'' gap between the refractory wall and the tubes , so I closed the gap for experimental reasons , I do not recommend any modifications to a boiler . The big draw back to a Seton or Greenwood is they do require time consuming and very dirty maintenance at least two times a season for super efficiency and safety reasons . I have no problem with proper maintenancee but what makes me crazy is neither manufacturer ever mentions the word maintenancee .
Anthony

 

[SteveJ]

Anthony,

I do not understand how the average homeowner can just throw wood in the beast and not watch the draft and temperature and not have problems...

I agree -super simple and super efficient and will burn just about anything...

BUT
1. Very nasty maintenance
2. Smoky and ashy
3. The part that needs to be cleaned the most is the hardest to reach
4. Tricky to get started...

Could you send me a picture of your barometric damper?

I am going to install a mixing valve to keep the return temp above 140 (per Fred).

Also, I getting sick and tired of the smoke and ash and am thinking about a draft inducer like yours. But I would have to install on the bottom of the horizontal smoke pipe - all the vertical is DuraTech insulated.

Do you have any suggestion for insulation sources? Fred said to talk to Bethel.

I see some Kaewool here (broken link removed to http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=130265880896)

Thanks,
Steve

 

[antknee2]

Hi Steve
The Kaewool you mentioned above is awesome I have a roll in stock and used it to back up the factory insulation when reinstalling side access panes on the Seton . I really dread cleaning the boiler because of the fine soot lands on my pool covers . What a mess have to hose down the entire boiler room . Ps no more,dark colored fine dust with the Econoburn .
I will post some pics tonight .

 

[2.beans]

sorry steve for no pics yet, ive been getting home late from doing my buddies install. check this out https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/27627/ just a thought before you open up your system.

 

[antknee2]

sorry steve for no pics yet, ive been getting home late from doing my buddies install. check this out https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/27627/ just a thought before you open up your system.

Same with me .

 

[2.beans]

ive finished the boiler/storage tank install. works great so far, but im to dumb to post pictures ive been trying for 2 hours with no *******luck. ill try tomorrow.

 

[Duetech]

Okay -

But - the main question - how to minimize smoke from the Seton/Greenwood configuration???

Thanks,
Steve

Hi Steve,
I don't have a Setton or a Greenwood, I have an EKO 40, but I do have a suggestion for low smoke at start up. It could almost defeat your savings if taken to extreme. When I first fired my EKO I used "matchlight" charcoal and got gasification in mere minutes. With good draft it might get your system temps up where you need them for gasification. My EKO will sometimes blow charcoal chunks out of the nozzle and out of the fires path. Since the fire of gasification eliminates most of the oxygen some of the coals go out and just sit there until cleaned out. Those dead coals are charcoal that, if sifted, could be a partial supply for low smoke start ups in my EKO. I don't know if you get anything like that with your system but even if you don't get a usable charcoal supply from your unit a briquettes/kindling mix might help reduce the smoke...Cave2k

 

[2.beans]

here is mt barometric and my flue flap, also this foggy picture of my heat exchanger. notice how deep the ash is in the bottom back of the boiler. it was up to the draft inlet tubes. hopefully these pictures will come thru.

 

[SteveJ]

2.beans,

Thanks for posting the pictures....

Do you have any of your HX tubes?

My ash was not quite as high as yours - but close.

What were you burning?

How often are you cleaning now?

My best indicator of time to clean is the exhaust temperatures - once over 1000F time to clean :gulp:

Steve