Does Hearthstone encourage bad installs?

[Gooserider]

I've been spending a bit of time on the Hearthstone website because I was looking at an E-bay stove that claimed to be a Hearthstone Heritage (it appears to actually be a pre-EPA Heritage II) and I noticed something that sort of disturbs me.

I also don't know if this is a unique to Hearthstone problem, or if it's something that is more common throughout the industry.... If anyone has observed the same problem with other brands, feel free to add them to the hall of shame...

They have "picture galleries" for each model, that appear to be customer stoves - At least the text inviting customers to submit pictures of their stoves implies that... What bothers me is that the pictures of several of the installs that I saw LOOKED like they had serious issues, most noticeably a lack of front clearance on the hearth pads.

I know pictures can be deceiving, but some of these looked like the hearth was only sticking out a few inches past the legs of the stove, no way would I buy that they were 16 or 18" worth. There may well have been other issues, but that was the thing I thought most glaringly obvious.

Otherwise, the installs all looked very pretty, so I can see why Hearthstone might want to show them off, but is it wise for them to be showing bad installs? What happens if someone doesn't read the manual, and just installs it like one he sees in the gallery? Does Hearthstone have any responsiblity if he gets in trouble? (I don't think they should, but who knows what a court will do these days...)

I'm not in Hearthstone management, but if I was, I'd suggest saying that the first step in deciding whether a customer submitted photo should go in the gallery is to have the picture examined by an "Elk-clone ;-) " for any sign of technical problems, and only consider proper installs for posting. If I wanted to go the extra mile, I'd even consider writing back to the customer thanking them for the submission and pointing out the possible problems and asking if they are "real" or only a photo illusion - and suggesting that they be addressed if real on the grounds that "we care about your safety"....

Gooserider

 

[elkimmeg]

Warranty work could be in question. The manufacuturer can request proof of compliance to their listing before doing warranty work.

This can be real problem for DIY especially if he post a picture showing an install not according to the listing which also deals with clearances.

Every Manufacturer has to have language in their manual, that requires approval of the local inspectors. This is the first step for DIY for proof of compliance for warranty claims
I know there was an issue in my town where the stove was not inspected and a warranty claim ws refused by Jotul till the owner could provide a certificate od insoections
BTW the Jotul was vented into a 12/12 and failed inspections. I was never called bask after that situation was remidied Never heard another word since.

It might have been a law suit but the owner probably realized he was not going to win and gave up.

Another way manufactures can look at it, if it was not permitted and inspected, the stove is illegally installed and voids any warranty coverage, as code compliance is part of the listing

Everbody that claims I didnot know a permit was required, is either full of BS. admits not to reading the manual/ listing or can't read The ones that claim th have installed according the the manual and did not permit the installation falls into the BS category

You Know every now and then an inspection can provent a situation of serious property damage and personal grief, I look at it this way. My job is to make sure your installation is safe.
If I do it right, one does not have to have intruders in there home chopping holes in the roof and windows, with a lot of big red trucks parked in front.

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

Marketing. They all do it.

I cant imagine any consumer installing based off a photo, and if they did, well thats there problem, they should have read the manual.

Do you stay away from ford pickups becasue the commercials show a truck climibing mount everest at 90 MPH? LOL. Or Volvo passing the road snow plow at a million miles a hour, of chevy getting a semi dropped in the bed of its truck.... Marketing is a exagerration, in a lot of industries.

 

[Harley]

Interesting observation, Goose.

Actually, what seemed to jump out at me... some of the pictures with the particularly small hearths looked more like a staged photo for advertising or brochure.... not something a homeowner sent in.

 

[Gooserider]

Interesting observation, Goose.

Actually, what seemed to jump out at me... some of the pictures with the particularly small hearths looked more like a staged photo for advertising or brochure.... not something a homeowner sent in.

Hmmm I seemed to have lost a reply. I made it but it didn't show up.

Harley - I don't know if the photos are staged or not, but the galleries all had this language:

Have a great picture of your HearthStone Stove that you'd like to share? Send it to [email protected] and you just may see it in our photo gallery. Be sure to send us your contact information (name, mailing address, phone number, etc.) and any comments you have about your HearthStone Stove

Which implies that the shots were "real" installs. Can't really tell since none of the photos are marked as "Joe's stove" However I'm not sure its relevant, because in some ways a staged photo is even worse because they KNOW better...

I know marketing is exaggeration, but most of the "unsafe practices" adds for cars and so forth have some version of "don't try this at home" disclaimer. I wouldn't let it scare me away from a stove, but it doesn't make me feel good about them either. I think it's especially bad since a photo of an unsafe install doesn't really gain them anything that a photo of the same stove installed safely wouldn't get them.

Elk, I agree that the manuals all say get a permit, but I don't buy for a moment that a permit necessarily makes you safer. First it assumes that the person doing the inspection is doing a thorough job, not just a walkthrough - some of the comments here suggest the latter is more common, even if you don't want to admit it. (I got a PM a while back about the two inspectors in my own town warning me that one was tough and that the other wasn't....) Even under your eagle eye, a person could skimp through doing barely whats in the book and end up with a marginal install. OTOH a person that was safety oriented can read the book, ask advice in places like this, and otherwise plan and build an install that far exceeds any code requirements. It's the attitude that creates the safety, not the peice of paper.

A while back I did some major electrical work for a friend up in NH. I'm not a licensed electrician, he could not have done the job with one due to the cost, and would have had to do an unsafe, unsatisfactory improvisation. I wouldn't have bothered with an inspection and permits, but his mother insisted. - According to her the inspector was constantly commenting on how I did things BETTER than code required. In some cases I had to talk them into doing it my way. I didn't change a thing because I was getting inspected, I did it the way I did because I wanted to make sure it was done RIGHT.... (for instance code allows backwiring - I don't...)

Gooserider

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

I would stay away from hearthstone then

 

[GVA]

Goose.
backwire is for the journeymen who haven't figured out which way the screw turns on those outlets

 

[kevinmoelk]

I have a number of friends who are professional photographers. One does studio catalog work for a number of different companies, he's done some for Sears Craftsman. I was giving him crap for some of the things I see in the Craftsman catalogs... like tools and a perfectly clean rag hanging on the edge of drawers and so forth.

Though the implication is that of homeowners sending in thier own pictures, I'm guessng there may be some "touch up" work done after receiving the photos. The short hearth factor is pretty bad, but I doubt those editing and posting the photos on the website have the knowledge of proper installs. Just a guess.

-Kevin

 

[Gooserider]

Goose.
backwire is for the journeymen who haven't figured out which way the screw turns on those outlets

True, but my point was that it is an example of bad workmanship that is permitted by code... I also make it a rule to run a few wraps of electrical tape around all my wire nuts to ensure they don't back off, and a few turns around the screws on switches and sockets just to cover up the exposed electrical contacts. - Not required, but good workmanship by the standards I was taught.

The particular job I was talking about was to run power, phone, ethernet and a cable TV jack out to a gazebo my friend had built in his backyard. I could have burried everything, but instead I ran two peices of 3/4" plastic conduit - one for the AC, one for the low voltage stuff. (I did put them in the same trench, but tried to keep them separated as much as I could) Code said I had to be 18" down, I went 24" (as deep as the trencher we rented would do) The gazebo wasn't heated, but was fully enclosed with storm windows. I could have used interior Romex, instead I went with the buriable weatherproof. Stuff along that line. We put in a ceiling fan, I made sure I could do chinups on the box (over 200 lbs stress load) I could have ran the romex across the surface of the studs since there was no covering on the inside walls - Instead I drilled holes so I could run through the studs. My friend wanted just one outlet - I insisted on running a loop around the building so that I could put one in the center of each 10' wide wall, and one on each side of the door - no need to run extension cords across the room.... I just wouldn't do it the shoddy way because I wanted it to be a job to be proud of.

Gooserider

 

[Harley]

Back to the photos... yeah - they do ask for pics to be sent in... they show that section as "gallery", and don't say anything that would lead you to believe they are actually all owner's installations.

I really don't think they are showing what's a code compliant installation, though your point is well taken. They're just trying to show how "purdy" their stoves look, and some smiling faces doesn't hurt with advertising, but again... I think most of the pics are for ad's....

My guess is that if you go into most any stove dealer - you'd probably see some "demo" units set up (maybe not burning) that are probably not exactly compliant, so they can rotate the stock in their "showcase"... That doesn't mean they are encouraging bad or non-compliant installations. You can't blame them for a buyer doing something stupid, and then trying to use the arguement "that's the way I saw it in the store, or in the glossy picture I saw in the ad"

Those that are going to do something risky probably are not going to be looking online or in a reputable dealer's shop to buy a stove. I don't think a reasonable person is going to buy a hearthstone (only using that example, since that was the title in the thread) and just set it up that way because of the way it looked in the pic. or in the shop. That doesn't mean they are encouraging bad installs.

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

I dont think my showroom has a legal install in it. and i sure as heck dont incourage bad installations. BUT, i have been questioned more then once by a savy consumer on the legality of my installs, i just pull the " do as i say, not as i do" card LOL.

 

[Gooserider]

I wouldn't expect a stove store to have legal installs any more than I'd expect a plumbing store to have functioning demo johns (despite all the jokes about little kids "field testing" them...) If asked in your shoes I'd say that it wasn't practical for you to do a legal install because of the space constraints and the fact that your stock is always changing... However I'd be willing to bet that your non-legal parts weren't critical safety items like sitting next to the wooden wall or other flammables.

Its the same sort of difference as between a furniture store and your living room....

OTOH, a website photo that at least implies that it's a "real" permanent install in someones home sort of falls in the same class as car ads with people not wearing seatbelts, using power tools without PPE gear, and that sort of thing. It isn't a big deal but I thought it was noteworthy.

Maybe even call it an experiment - we are told that many of the manufacturers are keeping up with the site, even if they just lurk, so maybe we can encourage them to "clean up their act" in this minor aspect just by commenting on it.

Gooserider

 

[stoveguy2esw]

we thought about doing a similar gallery , but we would examine each shot to determine weather it was a legal installation with clearances required etc. just havent gotten to it yet , its a great PR addition to a website, but goose is right , you should not publish an illegal installation under any circumstances on your website opens you right up for liability. i looked though the galleries, the stoves are DROP DEAD BEAUTIFUL! but a few of the pics made me nervous, a couple obviously didnt have adequate floor protection and one had a toddler sitting in front way to close to be unattended, made a cute picture, but im a little leary of that image (am a father so i guess thats why) i just dont think its smart putting up images which can be misinterpreted by the public. even if its show and tell and not staged by the company (i dont think they were staged by them) just my 2 cents

EDIT: look at it this way, if one of us in here were to post an installation with pictures , would we if seeing somthing that may not be quite kosher, just leave it alone or post a question to the owner , or at least PM with it to ensure our fellow woodburner was up to code? i dont mean bash them, but just ask? i would, and i hope that if it were me that you guys would, its about safety not showing off. ok thats 3 cents worth the extra penny i hope

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

you can tell the photoshopped ones from the real ones on hearthstones website.
Not that its any excuse, Jotul isnt any better.

 

[stoveguy2esw]

gawd! now that looks close!

 

[Gooserider]

you can tell the photoshopped ones from the real ones on hearthstones website.
Not that its any excuse, Jotul isnt any better.

Gads... I agree its close, but also where are they hiding the stove pipe?

I should point out as a semi repeat of what I had in my earlier post, that I'm NOT picking on Hearthstone as the only offender, it is just the brand that I noticed because I was spending time on their website. I suspect that many other brands might be just as bad (with the exception of Englander...) Like I will tell kids that I write down for being behaviour problems - "You may not have been the only one that was being bad, but you are the one that I CAUGHT!"

Gooserider