Econoburn 150 fan comes on randomly

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fahmahbob

Member
Jul 7, 2009
91
South Central Mass
I've recently started running my new Econoburn 150 (indoor) at my new house (which I don't live in yet). My buddy is the GC building my house, and he told me that a few times the fan on the boiler would turn on when the temp was ABOVE the set point! The two ways he's fixed it were 1) put the set point past the actual, then put it back down, and 2) shut the fan switch off and turn it back on. I was kind of in disbelief when he told me this - I figured he was playing with it and did something weird. Well, tonight I went to the basement to load it before heading home and I witnessed it first hand! The set point was 155, the actual was 159. As I approached the boiler, the actual went to 158 and the fan came on! I watched it for about a minute to see if it would shut off, but it didn't. Is this part of the normal cycling? Was I too impatient?

I plan to call Econoburn in the morning, but I figured I'd run it by the experts here in the mean time.

BTW, I'm an early-to-bed kind of guy, so I probably won't see any responses 'til tomorrow.

-Bob
 
fahmahbob said:
I've recently started running my new Econoburn 150 (indoor) at my new house (which I don't live in yet). My buddy is the GC building my house, and he told me that a few times the fan on the boiler would turn on when the temp was ABOVE the set point! The two ways he's fixed it were 1) put the set point past the actual, then put it back down, and 2) shut the fan switch off and turn it back on. I was kind of in disbelief when he told me this - I figured he was playing with it and did something weird. Well, tonight I went to the basement to load it before heading home and I witnessed it first hand! The set point was 155, the actual was 159. As I approached the boiler, the actual went to 158 and the fan came on! I watched it for about a minute to see if it would shut off, but it didn't. Is this part of the normal cycling? Was I too impatient?

I plan to call Econoburn in the morning, but I figured I'd run it by the experts here in the mean time.

BTW, I'm an early-to-bed kind of guy, so I probably won't see any responses 'til tomorrow.

-Bob


Which controller do you have?

Mine is the newer style DFD controller. When it is at the set point it periodically will do a 15 second fan on to keep the fire going. If you have the new style maybe the time needs to be adjusted?

Bigger question is why are you running it at 155 set point?

gg
 
Hi goose,

It's a new boiler, so I assume it's the newer style controller. I've seen pics of yours and I'm pretty sure it's the same. I'm sure I waited more than 15 seconds, but it's good to hear that it may be just a cycling thing.

I'm running it low in an effort to make sure there are coals for the guys to work with in the AM. They get there around 8. Also, I'm not entirely comfortable running it a whole lot higher when I'm not there. I've set it for 170 before and watched it creep to 180+. The draft was measured at .04, so it shouldn't be over-drafting. Also, it's been so warm lately there hasn't been a huge demand for heat (especially in a new, well insulated house), so there's a lot of idle time. Storage has to wait a while, so I figured 155-165 was a good set point.
 
Now that I think of it, it may have been 20 seconds. I am running storage now so it never shuts off. Dale will be able to tell you for sure tomorrow.

What are you running for return water protection?

Last year I ran without storage. I rarely saw mine creep more than 5 degrees over set point. I did run my underground loop continuous and also had a lot of uninsulated copper boiler piping.

gg
 
I run my 150 at 175 or 180 . I have a timer on the fan so it shuts off just before the wood is burnt out to save coals for the next morning.
 
goosegunner said:
Now that I think of it, it may have been 20 seconds. I am running storage now so it never shuts off. Dale will be able to tell you for sure tomorrow.

What are you running for return water protection?

Last year I ran without storage. I rarely saw mine creep more than 5 degrees over set point. I did run my underground loop continuous and also had a lot of uninsulated copper boiler piping.

gg

The system was plumbed based on the Tarm Biomass schematic PT2, and I used their recommended controls. So the protection is provided by a Termovar Loading Unit.

Most of the time it creeps no more than +5, but a few times on a fair sized load of pretty well-charred wood it's gone past that. I know I'm just being over-cautious, but until I'm more familiar with how it runs I don't want to take any chances.

Thanks for your input.
 
wantstoburnwood said:
I run my 150 at 175 or 180 . I have a timer on the fan so it shuts off just before the wood is burnt out to save coals for the next morning.

Hi wtbw,

I recently had an aquastat placed in series with my over-temp aquastat, which I use as a low limit. I have a bypass switch on it so I can turn the fan on when it's below the low limit set on it. So when the low limit aquastat isn't bypassed, the fan operates in a range of 135-200. It works well to keep coals, but I'm still experimenting with the best setting on it. So using the low temp on the boiler to keep coals isn't as much a concern now that I have that set up, but I'm still a bit leery of the temp creep.

-Bob
 
fahmahbob said:
I recently had an aquastat placed in series with my over-temp aquastat, which I use as a low limit. I have a bypass switch on it so I can turn the fan on when it's below the low limit set on it. So when the low limit aquastat isn't bypassed, the fan operates in a range of 135-200. It works well to keep coals, but I'm still experimenting with the best setting on it. So using the low temp on the boiler to keep coals isn't as much a concern now that I have that set up, but I'm still a bit leery of the temp creep.
-Bob
From what you said earlier, it sounds like you have the new controller (mine is a TC33, marked in the upper left corner). Just curious about the second aquastat - could you not change the controller settings to accomplish the same thing? The TC33 has some adjustable options which can modify the operating characteristics. I would expect the new controller to be at least as good, if not better in that respect. Are you getting extra creosote (particularly on the door), as a result of low operating temps and lots of idling? What's the MC of you wood supply? I'll be interested to hear how the new controller is working for you.
 
willworkforwood said:
From what you said earlier, it sounds like you have the new controller (mine is a TC33, marked in the upper left corner). Just curious about the second aquastat - could you not change the controller settings to accomplish the same thing? The TC33 has some adjustable options which can modify the operating characteristics. I would expect the new controller to be at least as good, if not better in that respect. Are you getting extra creosote (particularly on the door), as a result of low operating temps and lots of idling? What's the MC of you wood supply? I'll be interested to hear how the new controller is working for you.

I'll check tonight when I go by the house to see exactly what controller I have. The boiler was ordered in the June time frame, so I'd think it's the latest. I was told it was built to order since I'm in Massachusetts and it has to be ASME certified. But for all I know, they're all built to order.

As far as modifying the controller - I have no idea. There's nothing in the Econburn operating manual about this ability, and the controller did not come with it's own manual. I've been trying to contact the manufacturer this AM - so far to no avail - but I'll ask them about that.

95% of what I'm burning is red oak, running in the 20-25% range. Yes, the door get's pretty gross with creosote overnight, but it burns off during the day when the guys fire it up again. This weekend I plan to take a look up the chimney to see how it looks. I've been running it for about 3 weeks now, so it's time.
 
The new controller does not have low limit shutdown as configured.

gg
 
You are correct, gg. Dale confirmed that the fan coming on randomly is a normal part of the operation of the unit. It made sense once you said that, but I figured I give him a call anyways to ask some other questions I had. One was about the fact that in videos I've seen, the 'target' of the flame is cup-shaped, where mine is just a flat piece. He said mine is the new style.


-Bob
 

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fahmahbob said:
...... Yes, the door get's pretty gross with creosote overnight, but it burns off during the day when the guys fire it up again. This weekend I plan to take a look up the chimney to see how it looks. I've been running it for about 3 weeks now, so it's time.
It's interesting that you're seeing the creosote be burned off the door - I don't recall anyone else mentioning that their boiler does that. Most of us (who don't have storage) talk about keeping the door clean by scraping it off. If I don't scrape it off, it will eventually make its way to the bottom of the door gasket. Makes me wonder if EB somehow redesigned the door to facilitate getting rid of the creosote by firing it off.
You should never see creosote in the connector pipes or chimney. That's almost impossible with a gasifier, and would indicate a major problem. But one place that creosote can accumulate is the HX (4 heat tubes located at the rear of the boiler). Either poorly seasoned wood and/or lots of idling with wood over 15% can cause deposits in the HX. And there's no way to know this is happening unless you remove the top boiler plate and shine a light down the tubes. You don't get to see much because of the turbulators being in the way, but if the creosote is rally bad, it would be visible at the top of the tubes. I tried to finish the Spring of my first year with poorly seasoned wood (not knowing about the HX creosote), and will tell you that what I've described comes from my own painful experience. I repeat this story often to help others avoid making the same mistake.
 
I think it's because during the day they set it to 175 and put a good load of wood in. The boiler then barely idles as it brings everything back up to temp (including the garage floor). On the days that they've not run it hot, the door definitely shows it. I still have to scrape the lower 'shelf' where the door closes once in a while, though. That's where a lot of the drippings end up that don't burn off.

I know what you mean about the HX issue. The first week or so, they were putting NEXT year's wood in (nearly 30% moisture). When I tried to move the turbulator cleaner, it felt like it was gummed up and took a bit of effort to move (as opposed to just sliding as usual). Since they've been using the right stuff, it's much easier to move, but I know it needs to be cleaned. It's still heating great, so I'm not too worried about waiting another week to clean it (when we finally move in). But thanks for the heads up.
 
My Econoburn cleaned its door last summer when I used it for heating the pool. It never idled and burned the door clean of goo.


Also don't forget the potato trick that is in the manual to free the turbulators.

gg
 
fahmahbob said:
... The first week or so, they were putting NEXT year's wood in (nearly 30% moisture). When I tried to move the turbulator cleaner, it felt like it was gummed up and took a bit of effort to move (as opposed to just sliding as usual). Since they've been using the right stuff, it's much easier to move, but I know it needs to be cleaned. It's still heating great, so I'm not too worried about waiting another week to clean it (when we finally move in). But thanks for the heads up.
Although I didn't mention it, a restricted turbulator lever is the one sign of either creosote or very heavy impacted ash buildup in the tubes. And another heads-up - cleaning the tubes is a major project. In my boiler manual they refer to it as the "end-of-season" cleaning, with the implication being that the job would be done over multiple days because the boiler is no longer being used. At least part of the flue pipe needs to be removed, the back and top plates taken off, insulation cut away, and the turbulator linkage disassembled. After that, you can finally start cleaning the tubes, followed by reassembling everything you took apart to get there. Not saying it can't be done in-season. For someone who's familiar with the job, it can be done inside of a day; but only if the tubes are reasonably easy to clean. If they have heavy deposits, then the tube cleaning process itself can take many hours (or weeks, in one case I'm familiar with :sick:). Since you say the boiler is producing good heat; if you continue to use well-seasoned wood, and keep idling to a minimum, you probably can wait until Summer to clean the HX for the first time - much better to not be under-the-gun for that job.
 
willworkforwood said:
fahmahbob said:
... The first week or so, they were putting NEXT year's wood in (nearly 30% moisture). When I tried to move the turbulator cleaner, it felt like it was gummed up and took a bit of effort to move (as opposed to just sliding as usual). Since they've been using the right stuff, it's much easier to move, but I know it needs to be cleaned. It's still heating great, so I'm not too worried about waiting another week to clean it (when we finally move in). But thanks for the heads up.
Although I didn't mention it, a restricted turbulator lever is the one sign of either creosote or very heavy impacted ash buildup in the tubes. And another heads-up - cleaning the tubes is a major project. In my boiler manual they refer to it as the "end-of-season" cleaning, with the implication being that the job would be done over multiple days because the boiler is no longer being used. At least part of the flue pipe needs to be removed, the back and top plates taken off, insulation cut away, and the turbulator linkage disassembled. After that, you can finally start cleaning the tubes, followed by reassembling everything you took apart to get there. Not saying it can't be done in-season. For someone who's familiar with the job, it can be done inside of a day; but only if the tubes are reasonably easy to clean. If they have heavy deposits, then the tube cleaning process itself can take many hours (or weeks, in one case I'm familiar with :sick:). Since you say the boiler is producing good heat; if you continue to use well-seasoned wood, and keep idling to a minimum, you probably can wait until Summer to clean the HX for the first time - much better to not be under-the-gun for that job.

Hmmm. Maybe I'll wait. I sort of figured they'd make that part at least kind of easy...
 
X2 on waiting to clean the turbulators until spring. 2010-11 winter I had nice seasoned wood which I got from brother's stash. The turbulators were really quite clean. This year I'm burning wood seasoned for a year and less and I am expecting the worse with the turbulator cleaning. Doing my first turbulator cleaning last spring, It was impossible for me to get the turb cleaners out. Not because of creosote but because of how tight things were around the linkages and all. I eventually cut a larger removable access panel in the side panel where the main rod hooks to the handle. Now when I need to clean it, I unbolt the linkage, remove the access panel, remove 4 bolts that secures the main rod and slide the main rod and linkages right out of the boiler. Pull the turb cleaners up and out and now have alot more room to get into the turbs. So hopefully this year will be a little less time consuming.
 
The first time last year I took of each turbulator from the bar. What a pain. This year I took off the two bottom bolts from the bar. Next time I am going to try and rotate arm up and take off the tow top bolts. The are above the opening when the arm is in the up position. Not sure if I will be able to wiggle the mechanism out yet.

gg
 
gg, I can't remember which bolts I removed, but I do know I was removing all or some of them by sticking my hand through the flue opening. It was tight. I didn't want to remove the side panel so I made an access panel. Now I don't even have to remove the handle if I don't want to. I'll have to check the linkages out in different positions this year.
 
b33p3r said:
gg, I can't remember which bolts I removed, but I do know I was removing all or some of them by sticking my hand through the flue opening. It was tight. I didn't want to remove the side panel so I made an access panel. Now I don't even have to remove the handle if I don't want to. I'll have to check the linkages out in different positions this year.

When I looked at it this year it appeared as though if I tied the arm in the up position ths top linkage bolts would come off easily. The whole mechanism could the be pulled out.

gg
 
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