electrical in bathroom?

[Jim H.]

My wife's hair drier has stopped working in our bathroom. It is a 15amp circuit. It did not have a gfci plug in the bathroom. House was built in 1982. It has a gfci outlet on the same circuit in the garage for some reason. When I replaced the old outlet in the bathroom with a gfci one the hair drier still does not work (although a curling iron and my shaver do). I thought it might be the hairdrier but it works in another outlet my microwave is on (but not others for some reason). I am going to take out the gfci outlet in the garage (don't think 2 on same circuit is correct) and put in a regular outlet. When I tripped the gfci in the garage no power goes to the bathroom which would not protect us from shock in the bathroom correct?

I will followup and check this thread later.....any help will be great. Thanks.

Jim

 

[semipro]

It sounds as if the bathroom outlet was fed from the GFCI in the garage and protective that way. I'm not sure the separate GFCI outlet in the bathroom was needed or a good idea. GFCI protection of bathroom outlets is required though.

Since you high current draw device (the hairdryer) does not work but other lower draw devices do I suspect a bad connection. I'd pull all outlets on that circuit starting with the GFCI and ensure that push-in connections (no screws) are not used. These are problematic and I've seen them cause issues like the one you're experiencing. Use only the ones secured by screws.

I guess the GFCI in the garage might be bad but I've never see that.

 

[Highbeam]

Current code requires a dedicated 20 amp GFCI outlet for the bathroom.

You can wire the GFCI upstream of the bathroom to either protect the downstream outlets or not, your choice physically. It just depends on how you hook up the GFCI. I like GFCI outlets in the bathroom and I like 20 amp circuits.

I am a bit troubled that your device works on one outlet and not another even though both outlets are energized. That usually indicates a problem with the device. Maybe inspect the prongs of the plug?

 

[Jim H.]

I just took out the GFCI in the garage and put in a regular 15 amp receptacle. Neither the old GFCI in the garage nor the new receptacle will operate the hairdryer. I connected my old makita drill and operates in all the receptacles. The new GFCI in the bathroom is straight into the back of the unit then screwed tight....did not do the wire around the screws. Is that what you meant?
We have 2 different hair dryers and one works in the other master bathroom but not in the bathroom usually used and in question today. Should I have used a 20 amp GFCI?

Jim

 

[semipro]

I still think you have a bad connection in the garage circuit apparently before that outlet; or maybe a bad breaker? Try tripping and resetting the breaker on that circuit.

You have to have GFCI protection for the outside outlets too. I think the garage is considered to be outside.

 

[Jim H.]

I still think you have a bad connection in the garage circuit apparently before that outlet; or maybe a bad breaker? Try tripping and resetting the breaker on that circuit.

You have to have GFCI protection for the outside outlets too. I think the garage is considered to be outside.

So it is ok to have 2 GFCI's on the same circuit?

 

[oldspark]

I still think you have a bad connection in the garage circuit apparently before that outlet; or maybe a bad breaker? Try tripping and resetting the breaker on that circuit.

You have to have GFCI protection for the outside outlets too. I think the garage is considered to be outside.

So it is ok to have 2 GFCI's on the same circuit?

It's OK but not necessary and they get wired differently as the directions with the outlet should show how its done.

 

[semipro]

I still think you have a bad connection in the garage circuit apparently before that outlet; or maybe a bad breaker? Try tripping and resetting the breaker on that circuit.

You have to have GFCI protection for the outside outlets too. I think the garage is considered to be outside.

So it is ok to have 2 GFCI's on the same circuit?

I don't know but I'll bet someone else does. It doesn't sound like it based on what Highbeam said.

If it were me I'd figure out why the hairdryer won't work on that circuit first then worry about the GFCI issues.
Hair dryers are high current load devices (about 10 amps) and will tax any bad connections to the point of failure.
Something like a vacuum cleaner or portable electric heater would probably pull as much current. Test that circuit with one of those if you have one.
If there is a bad connection in that circuit it is probably a fire hazard.

 

[semipro]

The new GFCI in the bathroom is straight into the back of the unit then screwed tight....did not do the wire around the screws. Is that what you meant?

Jim

As long as screws secure the connection I'd be happy with it. They have receptacles where the wire pushed into the back and relies upon spring loaded contacts inside for connection. They're dangerous.

 

[pyper]

So you put in a brand new outlet in a location (garage) where it's probably the first thing after the breaker box, and a hair dryer doesn't work when you plug into it, but it does work on other outlets on other circuits.

I'm going to think that the problem has to be either:

a) the plug on the hair dryer is messed up and only works on a similarly messed up outlet. Try it (for testing purposes only) on an extension cord. Plug it into a cord, and then try the cord in two different outlets.

b) in the breaker box. Either a loose screw on the breaker, or something else.

c) in the wire between that outlet and the breaker.

If it's b or c you definitely need to get it fixed and probably ought to turn off the breaker in the mean time.



Speaking of gfci's in our new house I found out that the gfci on the dining room protects the outlet in the carport. That's not current code, but it's an old house, and I suppose it might be OK. Except the refrigerator is downstream from the carport, and I found that out when heavy rain tripped the gfci due to the Christmas lights on the house. Doh!!

Once you have your problem sorted out, you can put the gfci back in the garage, and feed the circuit with the "unprotected" lugs, and then put the gfci back in the bathroom. The problem here is that if you're using your shopvac in the garage and your wife is blow drying her hair, you will probably be tripping the breaker.

Oh, and it's OK to have 15 amp outlets on a 20 amp circuit. What's important is to have a 20 amp breaker and 12 gauge wire.

 

[oldspark]

There's is some flakely advice here so I will let you sort it out, just follow your code and you will be OK.

 

[Highbeam]

There's is some flakely advice here so I will let you sort it out, just follow your code and you will be OK.

That statement was flakey oldspark. If everybody knew the code then we wouldn't be here talking. This whole bathroom is not to code as I tried to point out so we are trying to be safe and work with what we have here. It is easy to tell somebody to rip it all out and reinstall to today's code.

On the back of the GFCI receptacle you have an inlet and two outlets. One outlet is GFCI protected and one is not. As such, you can choose whether you want the downstream plugs to be GFCI protected or not. The bathroom and the garage outlets should be GFCI protected.

A 15 amp circuit is small. I hate them. It becomes really small when feeding a garage and a bathroom. The bathroom alone should have 20 amps.

I like Pyper's ideas on this one. There has got to be a problem between the first receptacle and the breaker. Since there are no connections in that part of the circuit it must be in the panel. A new 15 amp breaker is like 3 dollars.

 

[semipro]

So you put in a brand new outlet in a location (garage) where it's probably the first thing after the breaker box, and a hair dryer doesn't work when you plug into it, but it does work on other outlets on other circuits.

I'm going to think that the problem has to be either:

a) the plug on the hair dryer is messed up and only works on a similarly messed up outlet. Try it (for testing purposes only) on an extension cord. Plug it into a cord, and then try the cord in two different outlets.

b) in the breaker box. Either a loose screw on the breaker, or something else.

c) in the wire between that outlet and the breaker.

If it's b or c you definitely need to get it fixed and probably ought to turn off the breaker in the mean time.



Speaking of gfci's in our new house I found out that the gfci on the dining room protects the outlet in the carport. That's not current code, but it's an old house, and I suppose it might be OK. Except the refrigerator is downstream from the carport, and I found that out when heavy rain tripped the gfci due to the Christmas lights on the house. Doh!!

Once you have your problem sorted out, you can put the gfci back in the garage, and feed the circuit with the "unprotected" lugs, and then put the gfci back in the bathroom. The problem here is that if you're using your shopvac in the garage and your wife is blow drying her hair, you will probably be tripping the breaker.

Oh, and it's OK to have 15 amp outlets on a 20 amp circuit. What's important is to have a 20 amp breaker and 12 gauge wire.

I believe code now requires that fridges be on a dedicated circuit too.

 

[oldspark]

I am not refering to any thing you said Highbeam, you can find a lot of code info online, I have been an electrician for a long time but I get information online but not from a forum, so many twists and turns its hard to keep up with what the OP wants and needs, thats all I was saying a quick google search will answer some of his questions, I dont like putting 15 amp recpt, on a 20 amp circuit and wont do it. The reason I said to follow the code is because its easy to wire something perfectly fine but it wont be to his code.

 

[oldspark]

To give you an example, I just found out a 15 amp recpt. on a 20amp circuit is allowed by code. My mistake mainly the face plate is the difference I guess.

 

[Retired Guy]

I'd wouldn't be surprised if you find a high resistance or loose connection in the circuit to the bathroom. Might to be able to locate it with an IR thermometer.

 

[oldspark]

Is the OP tripping any thing when they dont work or not. Is the drill working in the same outlet that the hair dryer does not.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

Likely the prongs on the hairdryer plug aren't making contact in all of the different receptacles.

 

[Jim H.]

The circuit at the box is 15 amp (on the breaker). The breaker had never tripped. Even the GFCI has not tripped. I am really thinking it is the hair dryer. The master bathroom was added on before we bought the house and the one hairdryer works in off that circuit but the other hairdryer does not. What makes this more puzzling is the hairdryer that works in the master bath will not work in the other bathroom I have been talking about. There is not much on that circuit. Just a couple outlets in the garage and the outlet in the bathroom. No light switches seem to be off that circuit either. might have to get an electrician after all. I just thought it might be a bad outlet.....thanks all for your willingness to help.

Jim

 

[Ehouse]

Does the hair dryer have an integral GF at the plug that might be tripping or faulty?

Ehouse

 

[Jim H.]

Does the hair dryer have an integral GF at the plug that might be tripping or faulty?

Ehouse

Yes, it does. I also tried the vacuum and it ran just fine.

 

[semipro]

Does the hair dryer have an integral GF at the plug that might be tripping or faulty?

Ehouse

Yes, it does. I also tried the vacuum and it ran just fine.

Well if the vacuum pulls as much current as the hair dryer I'm stumped. Sorry.

Do us a favor and let us know what you find.

Good luck.

 

[jharkin]

Puzzling isnt it? ****Disclaimer **** Im NOT an electrician but Ive got some thoughts...

First off this is what I htink the NEC says, but remember your local dcode could differ (oldspark correct me if I messed any up)...
- Current code requires a dedicated 20 amp outlet circuit in the bath, GFCI protected, and the lights cannot be on it.
- Any wet location has to be GFCI, so yes garages, and unfinished basements, and laundry, and kitchen countertop.
- If your bath was wired back when the code only required 15amp, its legal to leave it that way so long as you dont alter - then new codes kick in.
- You can put a 15 amp receptacle on a 20amp circuit as long as the circuit has multiple receptacles. If there is only one receptacle it must be 20amp rated.
- You can have one or multiple GFCIs on a circuit,. Typically you put the GFCI at the first outlet and wire the others in series to protect the string (there are labeled in and outgoing terminals on the GFCI), but you could pigtail the incoming and outgoing wires in the box so that the outlets are connected in parallel and use a seperate GFCI at each - this way tripping one outlet wouldn't de-energize the entire string.


Wiring from the back with the screw clamps (backwire) is fine - its a good solid connection. The snap in back connections are what electricians call backstab -those are bad. Actually if you find the outlet was wired that way just buy a whole new outlet. Only the cheap 50 cent builder grade outlets have the push connections. Spend $4 for a spec grade outlet, much better quality.


.....

Now, to find your issue. If I were you this is what i would do. First you need a couple tools. At a minimum you need a multimeter and a simple outlet checker. Even better see if you can borrow a kill-o-watt.

First I would take that hairdryer to a known good outlet. Plug in the killowatt and look at the unloaded voltage. Should be around 117~120. Plug in the hairdryer and turn it high. Code I believe allows up to a 4% voltage drop at full load, so you sholdnt see the voltage drop any lower than 115. The amp draw will probably be 10-12. If that all looks good the dryer is probably ok.

No go to your bad circuit and repeat the same test. If you see a low voltage to begin with, or a really low sag when you try to power on the dryer something is wrong in the circuit.

Assuming this test shows an issue with the circuit then you need to go to the breakers, kill it, and check all the connections. I would just follow the wiring and check every outlet and junction in the string. Use your multimerter at each oulet to validate its dead before working on it. Make sure every connection to an outlet are securely screwed in and not corroded, if anything is pigtailed makes sure the wires are twisted together well and a wire nut is on tight. Check all the grounds as well for good measure. Turn the power back on and use the outlet checker to validate each is wired correctly.

If you check every connection and they are all tight and the wire is the right size (should be 14/2-G minimum for 15amp, 12/2-G for 20) but the problem persists then maybe you missed and outlet or there is an improper concealed junction box someplace. Electricians have special tools to check for things like this but it starts to get tricky. They might use a breaker finder (2 peice tool, one unit plugs into an outlet and puts a noise signal on the circuit, and a hand held sensor that will buzz if passed near any device on the circuit) or a device called a megger that analyzes the circuit for shorts and high resitance connections under load.

Good luck and at any point if you feel in over your head just be safe and call a pro.

 

[bubba3228]

Jeremy you are spot on, I can tell you are a wireman.

When I first started reading this thread I thought of the commercial where the guy is flipping the switch in his condo and the garage door opener is operating the neighbors garage door and banging into his car, funny stuff.

Old Spark you are right too. Too many varialbles if you are not on site trouble shooting the problem yourself.

On GFCI's you have a line side and a load side. One needs to know in which direction the power is coming from. The problem described sounds the the frick'n hair dryer in question needs to hit the trash can.

The circuit in question needs to be checked out by a pro in person, not someones brother in laws friends cousins sisters husband.

IMHO

 

[Jim H.]

Thanks guys, I did wire the GFCI correctly. I pulled the old outlet and took of one wire and turned on the breaker to see if it had power at the outlet or not....this told me Line or Load. I also just plugged in a hd extension cord into the outlet and plugged the hairdryer into that and when I moved the plug around (hairdryer to extension) it would turn on. So, seems plug on hairdryer bad....but........the other hairdryer that works in my master will not work in this bathroom in question directly to outlet or extension.....

I am ready to cut the cord on the hairdryer and try a direct plug on it without the trip plug on it now....thoughts? You guys are very helpful. I have a multimeter but not the kill-o-watt. Thanks all! Will keep you informed.

Jim